If you could change one thing about your city...

Bluef

Greys said:

Hey, I was part of the committee that decided about shamans for Shallam and voted in their favor so was a dramatic shift.  Still, unless you can convince Bloodsworn otherwise, not going to happen.

I guess a group of shamans could go to the Bloodsworn IC and ask for a conversation about it, clarifying Their viewpoint on it. But at this point that should be about convincing the Bloodsworn of anything, rather the group should probably ask why, when there is no hard-coded factional reason for it, and so many powerful arguments have been made showing why it's really sort of hypocritical, They believe it is necessary. At least then shamans would have some RP closure on it. 

Achimrst

Bluef said:

Greys said:

Hey, I was part of the committee that decided about shamans for Shallam and voted in their favor so was a dramatic shift.  Still, unless you can convince Bloodsworn otherwise, not going to happen.

I guess a group of shamans could go to the Bloodsworn IC and ask for a conversation about it, clarifying Their viewpoint on it. But at this point that should be about convincing the Bloodsworn of anything, rather the group should probably ask why, when there is no hard-coded factional reason for it, and so many powerful arguments have been made showing why it's really sort of hypocritical, They believe it is necessary. At least then shamans would have some RP closure on it. 

  1 2 3 not it!

Kayeil

The point may not matter unless there are some current shamans who'd like to join, though.

Jukilian

To me, this all falls under kinda the same category as enemy statuses.

Cities can disallow classes for whatever reason they want.

Bluef

Jukilian said:

To me, this all falls under kinda the same category as enemy statuses.

Cities can disallow classes for whatever reason they want.

That's true. But also not really relevant to what we've been discussing.

The problem is that no one apart from the Bloodsworn seem to have a grasp on why shaman aren't allowed in the city. Their citizens can't really pose logical arguments about it when it's brought up IC or here (see previous responses from Taylsin, Antonius, etc.) because there was never a reasoning beyond 'they're dark' - when we're not. Now with the advent of spiritlore, some people are hoping that the nature of shamans as a neutral class will come to light, so to speak. 

Jukilian

Then I'd recommend going through with what you said - talk to the Bloodsworn IC and figure it out.

Sounds like Targossians need to as well.

Addama

Jukilian said:

Sounds like Targossians need to as well.

NOSE GOES

Achimrst

Jukilian said:

Then I'd recommend going through with what you said - talk to the Bloodsworn IC and figure it out.

Sounds like Targossians need to as well.

I have sort of talked to @Aodfionn about it, although it was more just me telling them spirits are important you should let Shaman balance the spirits of Targossas thing not really a "Let shaman into Targossas as citizens" thing.  I also agree with what @Kayeil said, if there are some shaman who actually WANT to join Targossas they would likely be the ones to talk to them about not just Shaman in general. I mean Shaman in general seem to like where they are at currently.

It would be neat if a group of Shaman could get approved to join Targossas somehow after like proving themselves or something.

Aodfionn

Interested shamans - hit me up IG and I'd love to discuss yo crazy ass class.

Draqoom

since @Bluef and others are saying nobody in Targossas has a legitimate reason as to why Shaman should be banned I'll post this, which is my own personal opinion that I had said earlier today. I'm not sure how the Bloodsworn feel about it so don't assume this is how They feel.

(Targossas): You say, "The thing about that is, Shaman's were banned from
Targossas not because of their Runelore, so to think that somehow the stance of
the ban would be changed or reconsidered now that Runelore is no longer in their
arsenal and has been replaced is kind of silly."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "I don't believe it is stilly to examine our prior
assumptions."
(Targossas): You say, "It is when the cause has not left."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "What is the cause, then?"
(Targossas): You say, "They were a guild founded in Hashan, city of Darkness.
Because of this their core skill of Curses revolves heavily around the darker
side of mystical energies, something Hashan helped them to manifest and perfect.
Along with their Darkness plagued Curses, they utilize the same malevolent
energies to manipulate people through their Vodun puppets. Shamans are cloaked,
wreathed and entrenched in Darkness despite what they will claim otherwise."
(Targossas): You say, "Now they commune with spirits and use the power they had
in life. This includes the powers of necromancy and occultism, both of which I'm
sure you can agree are not something the Dawnspear condones."


I would like to think that the reason all Shaman were banned was not because of Bluef but because of the idea I said there.

Achimrst

Draqoom said:

since @Bluef and others are saying nobody in Targossas has a legitimate reason as to why Shaman should be banned I'll post this, which is my own personal opinion that I had said earlier today. I'm not sure how the Bloodsworn feel about it so don't assume this is how They feel.

(Targossas): You say, "The thing about that is, Shaman's were banned from
Targossas not because of their Runelore, so to think that somehow the stance of
the ban would be changed or reconsidered now that Runelore is no longer in their
arsenal and has been replaced is kind of silly."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "I don't believe it is stilly to examine our prior
assumptions."
(Targossas): You say, "It is when the cause has not left."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "What is the cause, then?"
(Targossas): You say, "They were a guild founded in Hashan, city of Darkness.
Because of this their core skill of Curses revolves heavily around the darker
side of mystical energies, something Hashan helped them to manifest and perfect.
Along with their Darkness plagued Curses, they utilize the same malevolent
energies to manipulate people through their Vodun puppets. Shamans are cloaked,
wreathed and entrenched in Darkness despite what they will claim otherwise."
(Targossas): You say, "Now they commune with spirits and use the power they had
in life. This includes the powers of necromancy and occultism, both of which I'm
sure you can agree are not something the Dawnspear condones."


I would like to think that the reason all Shaman were banned was not because of Bluef but because of the idea I said there.

lol

Curses were developed in Tomacula by that little shaman there....um....I forget her name.

Trey

I swear if one more of you motherfuckers spells 'shamans' with an apostrophe...

Kresslack

Jukilian said:

To me, this all falls under kinda the same category as enemy statuses.

Cities can disallow classes for whatever reason they want completely valid reasons such as conflicts of interest and theological precedent.

Addama

I wouldn't mind if there were some valid (and preferably consensual) RP reason for Shaman to be disallowed, but the reasoning is so inconsistent ("They're dark-ish" "They're a Hashani class" "Bluef") and at least a couple prominent Shaman players have expressed an interest in joining Targ.  I'd prefer that we at least play it out with some solid resolution instead of just pretending it's not an issue.

Bluef

Achimrst said:

Draqoom said:

since @Bluef and others are saying nobody in Targossas has a legitimate reason as to why Shaman should be banned I'll post this, which is my own personal opinion that I had said earlier today. I'm not sure how the Bloodsworn feel about it so don't assume this is how They feel.

(Targossas): You say, "The thing about that is, Shaman's were banned from
Targossas not because of their Runelore, so to think that somehow the stance of
the ban would be changed or reconsidered now that Runelore is no longer in their
arsenal and has been replaced is kind of silly."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "I don't believe it is stilly to examine our prior
assumptions."
(Targossas): You say, "It is when the cause has not left."
(Targossas): Citizen says, "What is the cause, then?"
(Targossas): You say, "They were a guild founded in Hashan, city of Darkness.
Because of this their core skill of Curses revolves heavily around the darker
side of mystical energies, something Hashan helped them to manifest and perfect.
Along with their Darkness plagued Curses, they utilize the same malevolent
energies to manipulate people through their Vodun puppets. Shamans are cloaked,
wreathed and entrenched in Darkness despite what they will claim otherwise."
(Targossas): You say, "Now they commune with spirits and use the power they had
in life. This includes the powers of necromancy and occultism, both of which I'm
sure you can agree are not something the Dawnspear condones."


I would like to think that the reason all Shaman were banned was not because of Bluef but because of the idea I said there.

lol

Curses were developed in Tomacula by that little shaman there....um....I forget her name.

When I said that no one has a legitimate reason, I meant a hard coded one; because none exists. It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment. This argument put forth here itself is full of faulty premises. 

Serpents were founded in Hashan, city of Darkness by Elentari who everyone knows became Ourania - The divine Goddess allied with Oblivion. By the logic that shamans were born of darkness, serpents are born of the Moon and they need to go as well. 

Likewise, all Devotion users should probably stop using Damnation (Curses the eternal soul of your victim) or there is not any ground to stand on for saying others who 'curse' are wholly dark and unGood.

Finally, most shamans have NOTHING to do with Darkness, and their skills are not tethered to it in any way, shape, or form. The sympathetic magick of vodun isn't in any way 'dark'. It's actually not unlike what Jesters use for puppetry, so I guess there's another class that needs to GTFO of Targ.

I won't argue that the necromancy and occultist spirits we can bind aren't exactly that, but what people seem incapable of understanding is that shaman are supposed to transcend mundane alignments because spirits are everywhere. In the same way that there is a shamanic practitioner in so many villages in the realm, a shaman's spirituality embraces the culture and beliefs of those they live with. 

In all honesty, I don't care much about whether Targ takes shamans or not. But if city is going to continually limit itself and continue to be insular, it has no room to complain that Houses are empty and they can't handle raids. Hell, even Deucalion told the Dawnstriders once that even the brightest fire casts shadows. I wish some logic would return to Targ and let those shamans who want to join it do so.

Bluef

Trey said:

I swear if one more of you motherfuckers spells 'shamans' with an apostrophe...

Tharvis

Canonically, serpents came from Ekanel and Loki, no? Though the chaos argument still stands, there.

Kuy

Bluef said:

 It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment.

This is what bugs me about all of this.

This is how Targossas is.  It's built into the city.  The city is literally an extension of the Bloodsworn's will.  It is not the citizens' city, it is the Bloodsworn's.  Their word is law, and that's the end of it.  There is nothing problematic with this, and frankly, it's the most legitimate RP reason there is for Shamans to not be allowed in Targossas.

If you have a problem with this, then your problem is not with Shamans not being let into Targossas, it's about the fundamental RP of the city itself.  And if you have a problem with the fundamental RP of the city itself, then you probably shouldn't be in that city, anyway.

Bluef

Tharvis said:

Canonically, serpents came from Ekanel and Loki, no? Though the chaos argument still stands, there.

True, true. I mostly meant the first Serpent Guild. Shamans were around long before the Shamans Guild too, so yeah.

Kuy said:

Bluef said:

 It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment.

This is what bugs me about all of this.

This is how Targossas is.  It's built into the city.  The city is literally an extension of the Bloodsworn's will.  It is not the citizens' city, it is the Bloodsworn's.  Their word is law, and that's the end of it.  There is nothing problematic with this, and frankly, it's the most legitimate RP reason there is for Shamans to not be allowed in Targossas.

If you have a problem with this, then your problem is not with Shamans not being let into Targossas, it's about the fundamental RP of the city itself.  And if you have a problem with the fundamental RP of the city itself, then you probably shouldn't be in that city, anyway.

Like I already said, I don't particularly want to join Targossas. I can accept IC that the Bloodsworn's will is law, but if they're not going to back it up with reasons, then Targossas is going to continue to face criticism and mockery about the stance on shamans. Moreover, this is not what was said to the Dawnstriders when Shallam fell and Deucalion came back. We were told one thing, then without any warning shamans who were refugees were simply told 'NO" without reason and told if they wanted to join (or even enter the city, live in their housing, run their shops, etc.) they had to pay to change class. What this arbitrary decision cost those players should have corresponded with a roleplayed reasoning that justified it. That wasn't very good roleplay then and it still isn't in my opinion.

Kresslack

It makes plenty of sense to me, given what Targossas' founding ideologies are (and what Shallam's became). Shallam seemed to despise Occultists more than Necromancers (which in some weird plot twist became anathema to Forestals), to the extent that a crusade was launched to wipe them out.

It's that "anything that doesn't conform to our religious strictures" mentality which makes sense (in my objective observation) as to why Shamans are disallowed, because some of the forces they work with are of a 'darker' nature. Not dark as in Twilight dark, but dark as in "we don't understand this practice or the force that powers it, so we have to view it with distrust".

Also, the natural patron of an organization has paramount say in what type of membership it allows and maintains. They don't need to justify themselves to mortals, especially mortals that are not of their following. What do you think Sartan's reaction would be if some Sentinel pestered him with the pompous question as to why Sentinels are not permitted into Mhaldor?

Bluef

Kresslack said:

It makes plenty of sense to me, given what Targossas' founding ideologies are (and what Shallam's became). Shallam seemed to despise Occultists more than Necromancers (which in some weird plot twist became anathema to Forestals), to the extent that a crusade was launched to wipe them out.

It's that "anything that doesn't conform to our religious strictures" mentality which makes sense (in my objective observation) as to why Shamans are disallowed, because some of the forces they work with are of a 'darker' nature. Not dark as in Twilight dark, but dark as in "we don't understand this practice or the force that powers it, so we have to view it with distrust".

Also, the natural patron of an organization has paramount say in what type of membership it allows and maintains. They don't need to justify themselves to mortals, especially mortals that are not of their following. What do you think Sartan's reaction would be if some Sentinel pestered him with the pompous question as to why Sentinels are not permitted into Mhaldor?

I hear what you're saying. Maybe if the city followed that philosophy it wouldn't seem like such a hub of hypocrisy. There are citizens giving tarot readings, roleplaying possessing magical empathetic powers, experimenting with mind-altering substances, and whatnot. Like I said, "Because the Bloodworn" said so is good enough for Bluef, but OOCly I struggle with the logic and the fact that there are other classes as well as individuals in Targossas that are just as mysterious and potentially 'dark'. 

Kuy

This is a stupid discussion now.

Draqoom

Bluef said:

When I said that no one has a legitimate reason, I meant a hard coded one; because none exists. It's all just "Because the Bloodsworn said so," which is sort of lame and isn't really an argument or reason, it's a commandment. This argument put forth here itself is full of faulty premises. 

Well, given just this sentence I am to assume that you would agree with Mhaldorian priests/paladins/forestals, Targossian occultists/infernals/apostates, Ashtani priests/paladins or Eleusian Infernals/Apostates simply because those are not hard coded to not be possible combinations as well.

Regardless of where Shamanism came from, it's established NPC role (which any healer in an underdeveloped village is probably going to be called a shaman, doesn't necessarily mean they are of the shaman class), or any other kind of role played identity it will always be linked to Hashan because of the Shaman guild, and by extension it will always be associated as Dark. That will keep Shamans on the nope list for Targossas. The 'legitimate reason' is the Bloodsworn see it as an extension of Darkness for the established reasons mentioned before. Even if there was a glimmer of hope that the rp of rogue neutral entities caught on and the Bloodsworn had a change of heart, all of that was shattered when spiritlore came about and has the Shaman capable of using Necromancy and/or Occultism through the respected spirits.

Nim

Draqoom said:

Regardless of where Shamanism came from, it's established NPC role (which any healer in an underdeveloped village is probably going to be called a shaman, doesn't necessarily mean they are of the shaman class), or any other kind of role played identity it will always be linked to Hashan because of the Shaman guild, and by extension it will always be associated as Dark. That will keep Shamans on the nope list for Targossas. The 'legitimate reason' is the Bloodsworn see it as an extension of Darkness for the established reasons mentioned before. Even if there was a glimmer of hope that the rp of rogue neutral entities caught on and the Bloodsworn had a change of heart, all of that was shattered when spiritlore came about and has the Shaman capable of using Necromancy and/or Occultism through the respected spirits.

The problem with the above is that you guys have serpents, which I'm pretty sure started in Mhaldor with the Naga, come on.

Also I think there was an Ashtani serpent house that used to do cool things, and no one knows it but the Mojushai were actually the best serpent house. We had the realism of being a serpent house in a society that outlawed theft, beat that.

Kresslack

Bluef said:

I hear what you're saying. Maybe if the city followed that philosophy it wouldn't seem like such a hub of hypocrisy. There are citizens giving tarot readings, roleplaying possessing magical empathetic powers, experimenting with mind-altering substances, and whatnot. Like I said, "Because the Bloodworn" said so is good enough for Bluef, but OOCly I struggle with the logic and the fact that there are other classes as well as individuals in Targossas that are just as mysterious and potentially 'dark'. 

Like what? And to be fair, tarot readings (both IG and RL) work largely on the understanding that it's primarily an exotic theatrical display, which is a far sight different from the practical IG use of tarot cards. But to put it into relation, it's like of like how a devout religious person might view a ouija board with distrust and skepticism.

What goes on in the city regarding what people practice, and to what extent they wish to allow people to practice it, is largely the decision of the city government based on the tenants they were given by the Bloodsworn. It's a circular argument in regards to saying "well how come this group of people can do this thing, which is similar, but we can't be a part of it?" to which their answer is, "Because we said so."

Also, the Naga weren't founded until 315AF. There were pre-existing Serpent organizations prior to their arrival.

Nim

Also, as an actual (serious and not joking) point, I'm told by my sources that shamans can also use devotional spirits. I'm even told it's the source of their new resurrection power. Wouldn't spirits like that be pretty in with the Bloodsworn Gods? Why are they agreeing to help dark powers?

edited for the @Kresslacks out there

Kresslack

Sounds like you need to vet your sources (or work on your comedy routine).

Jacen

To be fair, there's a perfectly good point to be made in "Because the Bloodsworn said so" not being a good enough reason. Yes, its how Targossas works, but during the 99.9% of the time when the bloodsworn aren't around, Targ players need to be able to back up their ideology. You're not going to win any debates playing "Because the Bloodsworn said so" on repeat. 

Give Targ players the tools they need to make this an actual conflict that can be debated over.

Kresslack

Jacen said:

To be fair, there's a perfectly good point to be made in "Because the Bloodsworn said so" not being a good enough reason. Yes, its how Targossas works, but during the 99.9% of the time when the bloodsworn aren't around, Targ players need to be able to back up their ideology. You're not going to win any debates playing "Because the Bloodsworn said so" on repeat. 

Give Targ players the tools they need to make this an actual conflict that can be debated over.

It's solely the responsibility of the people leading the city to enforce the ideology....or to not enforce it. Either way, if it gets enough out of hand I'm sure they'll be called to account on why it was allowed to get to a point to where the Bloodsworn had to step in and proverbially (or physically) cuff someone upside the head.

My point is, that's Targossas' concern, not everyone else's. If it makes their platform for debate look weak, then that's something -they- will have to recognize and address however they wish to, or to simply ignore it if that is their decision.

Achimrst

Kresslack said:

 What do you think Sartan's reaction would be if some Sentinel pestered him with the pompous question as to why Sentinels are not permitted into Mhaldor?

I just wanted to comment on this and didn't really read if anyone did after I read it. Yet, I don't think comparing Sentinel wanting into Mhaldor is the right way to look at it. I think it's more closely to Alchemists asking Eleusis/Gaia why they aren't permitted into Eleusis. I mean the Tsol'aa have an Alchemist in the Tsol'aa village, or at least used to, and they are considered friends of nature. So why exactly are Alchemists not allowed in Eleusis? Well apparently it's because of some kind of forestal jealousy is all I have ever heard about it.

So in my view again, Shaman not being allowed in Targossas is similar to this in that it's kind of an ambiguous reason which you can make up all kinds of things for which sort of make sense but then again not really so people just meh at it.