Forest Conflict

Delphinus

Mishgul said:

That was my question. What else would Eleusis do if not defend nature.

What do the other cities do?

Mishgul

raid each other afaik

Chryenth

Mhaldor exterminates.

Ashtan roflstomps things, Cyrene does paperwork. Targossas, we'll see.

Valden

Chryenth said:

Mhaldor exterminates.

Ashtan roflstomps things, Cyrene does paperwork. Targossas, we'll see.

I think you're missing one.

Chryenth

We already covered Eleusis, though.

Sidonia

I'm fine with team green having a way to strike back that isn't raiding as long as they can be enemied to all non-forest locations, which makes them open pk and take periodic damage and Mhaldor will have to get fog-flow for ganking.

Penwize

@Sarapis, regarding the comparison to forestal RP and the humane society concept:

If this is how you want or envision the forestal faction to be, then there needs to be some serious, direct and thorough rearrangement of everything in that faction currently.  I mean this completely wholeheartedly.  That is not at all how the faction has been directed.  That is not how the leaders treat it, that is not how the divine have treated it, and that is not at all how the entire history of that faction has treated it for as long as I have seen.  It's possible to steer it in that direction, but please understand that that is not at all how it is right now.

Idelisa

Just to play Devil's advocate Nature is not a puppy in the other room getting beaten, it is vast and all encompassing which includes the "dirty" Mhaldorians. It can take care of itself!

Imagine if we didn't, you know.... Give them what they wanted all the time?

There are other options to RP than zealous combat and defense. Forestals love and serve Nature and combat is not the only way to do that.

Drauka

We shall beat them with Crafting! Our needle and thread is our sword and our pies are our shield!

Awan

Idelisa said:

Just to play Devil's advocate Nature is not a puppy in the other room getting beaten, it is vast and all encompassing which includes the "dirty" Mhaldorians. It can take care of itself!

I agree: I would really enjoy an opportunity to roleplay a forestal in a world in which Nature is all-powerful and can take care of itself, in which our devotion to Nature is not based on protecting it. That sounds delightful and fascinating--it would open up a whole new avenue of roleplay.

But (and I'm not sure if this is what you meant or not) that's only possible if extermination is deleted. It would be incoherent for us to say "Nature can take care of itself, it doesn't need protecting" if there was anything resembling an extermination mechanism. The forests manifestly cannot protect themselves from being exterminated, and extermination is purposely characterized as the destruction of the very Nature-y essence of a natural area. The sole purpose of an extermination mechanism is to make it so Nature needs to be protected from something.

Aepas

if eleusis gets to overgow the isle i can finally have a grove.

Aerek

I don't really get the "MUST DEFEND AT ALL TIMES EVEN WHEN ITS POINTLESS" take toward the RP. I play a Knight, an individual sworn every bit as zealously to Cyrene as any forestal to Nature, but if Cyrene is getting raided by a clearly superior force, and I don't have the means to repulse it, I have zero issues making a token attempt to defend and then telling the city to go hunt for a while.

Multiple suicide runs are not required. RP is important, but so is having fun. Don't let one curb-stomp the other.

Kazu

I've been debating whether or not to post my opinion on the matter, as I'm obviously biased and not very talented at debating my position. However, this is how I, and a lot of forestals, have generally come to feel in regards to the subject. Warning, wall of text incoming.

Honestly, I think exterm had the potential to be an interesting avenue of conflict between organizations. However, the way it's been handled by both the administration and the player base has led to it being utter hell for the forestal side.

Starting off with the mechanics, forestals are forced to defend an area at least 10 times the size of any other city without the aid of guards, totems, or city buffs that stop us from losing xp. We do have forest defenses, but those are laughable at the moment, and they cease to function in any room that has already been extermed. Next, exterm requires very little prep compared to other conflicts such as city raids or icon conflicts. Any single exterminator can simply walk in and start. I'm not sure on the exact time it takes to exterm, but I want to say it's 10 seconds or less? It's completely unreasonable to expect us to be able to get a defense group ready and there in time to stop the exterm, especially if it's in one of the more remote areas such as an island. That's assuming that the person in question hasn't already left with wings, earrings, or inferno. So one person can destroy a room in our 1k+ room defendable in a fraction of the time it takes to harm a city, without any need for a group.

Even forestals who actually go to a defense are at disadvantage constantly, as we -ALWAYS- forced to move into an area that has been prepped and waiting for us. While the single exterminator does all the damage, any person with him is free to prop a totem or drop a full set of vibes that we pretty much have to move into to dislodge a group. Gods forbid that there are actually 3 or more people there with a totem. We flow into that and we get insta trampled, just in time for the exterminator to finish off the room and join in as well. If we try to chase a group around an area, we are split up pretty easily, as gravehands simply mangle any attempt, and ALL Mhaldorians are completely immune to them.

Now, the way the playerbase has handled it has some extreme cases. I know several exterminators are perfectly reasonable with how they exterm. However, there are also those, not naming names, who feel it's...fun to exterm 50 rooms when nobody is around. Simply logging in to things like that make me want to just quit the game, as it's happened numerous times over the years, and the admins have done -NOTHING- to stop it. Furthermore, there are quite a few people who will randomly go off to islands and exterm, where there is very little risk to themselves. Forestals are still obligated by the way their rp has been shaped to go and check them out. Sailing 10-15 minutes to check out island exterms, only to have the target board a ship and yell insults at you is pretty discouraging.

As far as the “you don't have to rp Nature above all” argument, we have been encouraged by our divine for a long time to do so. I assure you, that Artemis/Gaia would have thrown me into a pit of lava if I'd kept on doing some sort of game or sermon while an exterm was happening. We have to interrupt our activities on a much more regular basis due to the aforementioned ease of exterms. I'll also agree with Awan, that we really have no choice but to drop everything to go and defend. What are we really supposed to say when questioned? “Oh, that part of Nature will be fine. Just ignore the people destroying everything we have been entrusted to protect.” We simply have to drop everything, even raids on Mhaldor, to go and stop exterms.

Even if we were given a way to do something to the island, that's still hardly fair. The defense area for Mhaldor would be right next to their city, and I know EI is, but we have to defend EVERY forest. Not only that, but they'd be able to totem, possibly fixable, the area and simply have an overall advantage defensively, as there's really only one main way onto the island. Furthermore, Mhaldorian roleplay doesn't really focus on protecting one thing above all else. Defending the red fog would simply be an extension of city defense for them.

As for how to fix the whole situation, I honestly do not know. Giving forestals the chance to go on the offensive is a good first step, and it really can't hurt. I'd honestly like to see changes made to the overall exterm mechanic that encourage more group based deals. I'd really be interested in seeing the overall time of exterm having a sharp increase, but being offset by the number of necromancers actually focusing on the act. They'd be unable to move or do anything that you wouldn't normally in an exterm. That would probably make it easier to deal with random douches who want to exterm a single room and just run, and cut down slightly on the overall number of defenses we have to deal with per day. I'd also like to see a hard limit on how many exterms any necro can participate in each day. Being able to exterm 20-30 rooms without stopping is simply ridiculous.

Also, @Aerek, exterm parties are generally pretty small. it's not like they are bringing 15 people every time to do an exterm. It's generally a small group of 2-6 people usually. The problem is that it's a constant thing that we are forced to defend due to the large area and lack of guards.

Prythe

I was not present for the discussions which involved Eleusians arguing with Gaia. I think, in part, that is byproduct of our training system - as is our need to jump and try and stop each and every extermination. 

I know in Druids, and in Sylvans (Sylvans borrowed from the Druid Novice tests quite liberally when they were formed), and most likely in Sentinels as well , there is a "Novice" question which is along the lines of "If a Divine told you to harm the Forest or they would destroy your family/friends/loved ones what would you do?" the encouraged response is to not do so, and to acc3pt the possibility that the Divine might be wrong or possessed or something/anything. That question is posed as if the Divine could equally be Sartan or a Divine aligned with Nature. Similar questions are posed with other risk analyses, each time the preferred response is "Nothing, nobody, is more important than Nature."

Artemis is quite clear on this topic as well. Nature comes before Her. When She says Nature she does not mean it to be Herself, or any other Divine, but the lands upon which we walk, the air that we breathe, etc.

So we're trained, from day one, that Divine are not to be obeyed without question and if we so much as even consider not helping protect Nature, we are "bad forestals."

Perhaps if we were instead trained that there is more than one way to serve and protect Nature. That defense is one. That learning about it is another. That nurturing it is another. That there are many paths to being "Of Nature."

But in today's world we have no option (unless we want to RP a forestal who does not fit the commonly held definition, and have others point fingers at us behind our backs) but to drop everything and run when there is risk - and yes, because of those "entry" questions, to have a mind set, where even the questioning of a Divine is not untoward.

Awan

Now I'm afraid the message that's going to get taken from this discussion is that Gaia's going to be told to start urging forestals not to bother protecting Nature when it's inconvenient, or something.

No such divine intervention could possibly work, and any such attempt would completely do away, permanently, with every last bit of authority Gaia could ever hope to wield. Forestals take their ideology to outweigh whatever any god tells them, and they always have. They're not going to stop doing that. Nor should they, frankly. I have no interest in seeing Eleusis go through the operation Shallam went through, where they were turned into a theocracy and told that their gods defined the nature of "Good." That didn't make a ton of sense in Shallam at the time, but it would make absolutely no sense in Eleusis given that Nature, unlike Good, is actually tangible and visible, and given our history of cases in which forestals have been betrayed by their own gods in one way or another.

If you want to change the culture, you actually have to change either the game mechanics, or the official description of what it is that the game mechanics are accomplishing (or probably both).

If extermination is defined as the actual destruction of the Nature-y essence of a place, of a sort that Nature can't prevent on its own and can't heal on its own, then we have to prevent it. We can't not prevent it and still be forestals. That really would be like the humane society sitting in a room holding ceremonies about protecting animals while ignoring the dog being beaten to death in the next room. Telling us to just go ahead to feel free and ignore the howling dog is not the solution. You have to change the mechanisms, and if you change the mechanisms so that it could possibly make sense for us not to prioritize preventing whatever-it-is above all else, then people will stop.

But that means either doing away with any true extermination mechanism, either by doing away with it entirely, or by replacing it with something that doesn't actually destroy Nature.

Anatral

Now I'm sorry I broke my forum-fast, as this whole discussion is incredibly depressing. I'll be as brief as possible.

Many of the counter arguments made above imply that it is right and proper for Forestals to loathe all non-natural areas, all cities and the entire built environment. This, and it seems to be what Gaia is hinting at, would force us into a state of absolute war against all other factions. In short, turning Eleusis into a green version of Mhaldor. No thanks.

What people seem to be missing is that some people don't like combat very much. I'm all up for fighting occasionally, and have no problem losing XP when it makes sense IC, but having to constantly abandon all other, truly enjoyable, aspects of this wonderful and rewarding game twice an hour because someone logs on and decides to exterminate is just awful.

To the argument that we don't have to. First of all, that completely goes against all the divine guidance we've gotten for IG centuries, and secondly, if a small group of forestals would choose to ignore harm to nature, they'll get tarred as feckless and untrustworthy - hence unable to gain any significant swing. The RP argument has been well rehearsed above so I won't get into it.

RP-wise, though it seems to make sense, going more extreme and pursuing the absolute destruction of all of non-nature would be awful and kill off most of the Eleusian population eventually. We already have one Mhaldor. Whereas just choosing to ignore harm to nature would cause a terrible schism. Can't we just delete both extermination and oakstone and all go about our business using the already well-established and well-balanced conflict mechanisms?

Please?

Mishgul

Mhaldor would make a pretty good city of Nature judging by this thread, and Eleusis should be Cyrene.

Talonia

It's not going to kill off most of the Eleusian population, because that's the trend that *every* city in Achaea is headed towards.  

Ashtan fights Targossas, Mhaldor, Cyrene, and Eleusis, and there is strong admin pressure to keep military support to Hashan to a minimum. 

Mhaldor fights Targossas, Hashan, Cyrene, Eleusis, and Ashtan. 

Targossas fights Ashtan, Mhaldor, and Hashan, and there is a push to keep it isolated from Cyrene/Eleusis and not be reliant on their assistance nor to render assistance in turn. 

Hashan and Cyrene have it a bit easier, with only two opponents each at the moment, but that is partly due to Hashan just reawakening to its purpose and Cyrene being pacifistic. 

We have enough cities for people who kind of want to just muddle around; Eleusis should not be another one of those. Conflict drives the game. This doesn't mean it always has to be extermination-driven or combat-driven, of course. But then the onus is on you to show that people in the Nature faction are really doing some other great conflict-promoting stuff in terms of RP, rituals/sermons, or whatever, which I am just not sure has ever really been the case.    

Ruth

What's wrong with being a green version of Mhaldor?

Iocun

Well, green red fog would be a bit silly.

Kyrra

It'd be like acid rain fog. +1

Awan

Giving Eleusis a new offensive purpose of tearing down civilization would be fine if extermination didn't exist and we got to play a role in this "war of everyone against everyone" on a genuinely even footing.

I don't think there'd be nearly so much resistance to that idea if the extermination problem was dealt with in a genuinely satisfactory way (one that responds to the needs of the forestal non-combatants who pay nearly all of the incredibly steep costs of nature conflict, not one that responds primarily to the needs of Mhaldorians and forestals whose main interest is combat). At the moment, the idea that we ought to be going on the offense and starting up more conflict is ludicrous--we have an incredibly frustrating and vastly imbalanced form of conflict on our hands already and everyone is burnt out and hates it.

If extermination was eliminated, then forestals could go on the offense without extermination getting used in retaliation. And then it'd be possible for those who want to go on the offense to do so, and those who didn't want to not to do so, and what defense combat might feel "obligatory" for non-combatants would be of a reasonable sort, unlike at present.

But that's not possible while an extermination mechanic of any sort in place, whether something supposedly "equivalent" is put in place for the other cities or not. If Nature itself can be attacked, then anyone who can do that has a form of leverage over us that we can't possibly equal, and there is no possibility of a genuinely fair conflict.

Prythe

Iocun said:

Well, green red fog would be a bit silly.

PURPLE!

Trevize

Iocun said:

Well, green red fog would be a bit silly.

Now THIS I would pay to see.

Valden

Iocun said:

Well, green red fog would be a bit silly.

It's always Christmas in Flowerdor

Sherazad

Mishgul said:

Mhaldor would make a pretty good city of Nature judging by this thread, and Eleusis should be Cyrene.

If we become city of Nature, do we get a god?

Cahin

Sherazad said:

Mishgul said:

Mhaldor would make a pretty good city of Nature judging by this thread, and Eleusis should be Cyrene.

If we become city of Nature, do we get a god?

Yes, but the catch is the new god rules beside dormant Sartan.

Sherazad

@Cahin: Tru Suffering

Idelisa

If we are able to restore Nature's essence, doesn't that mean it's impossible for Mhaldorians to completely exterminate it?   Just saying, they'd get pretty bored after a while if we just went around cleaning up after them instead of giving them EXP and a rush.

Mhaldorians are part of Nature too.  Oakstone is a dictator.  Exterms are just stupid griefing. 

Kyrra

I couldn't bring my forestal alt to join Eleusis. Even if it's a treetop village. The snuggly creepers were too creepy, as is that one dude that flows to your grove to hug you uninvited. :P

Having said that, while I can't be bothered participating much in defense, it's never been a bother to fix rooms and replant once people go home. It's no different to fixing rooms after a fire.