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Forest Conflict

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  • JiraishinJiraishin trapped in a thawing block of icePosts: 1,246Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tvistor Best summary of Evil ever.
    ________________________
    Regular sleep is for the weak.
    I ninja'd description ninja
    Averi
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, someone awesome first made it up.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
    Jiraishin
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPosts: 5,310Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Would be nice if a divine gave Mhaldor something else to do 

     

    WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE GARDEN 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,347Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:

    WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE GARDEN 


    Mhaldor gardening, eh?  Careful, you might reveal your plan to transform Mhaldor into one giant flowerpot.
    Tvistor
  • DelphinusDelphinus Posts: 896Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Penwize: You have to hide something before you can reveal it.
    TanrisTrillianaSherazadAveri
  • AepasAepas Posts: 1,619Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honestly, I think a good start for the change of forest combat should start on Mhaldor's side since we are the aggressors. I'd vote for a yearly thing,much like the sarapin sacrafice. Do a lil sermon, roar at the world, go try and burn forests. It would keep it rare, hopefully stop people from exterminating on a whim, allow for RP, and allow the other side time to defend. then again, it would just lead to every single forestal moving to a grove and summoning. It's not perfect, but if it's not fixed by a balance patch, why don't we just try to fix it IC for ourselves? Just because something is abusable doesn't mean it should be abused, and if people seriously see it as that much of a detrement, why not try to fix it a bit ICly?

    I mean, as far as I know,both Eleusis and Mhaldor just take random pot shots at eachother, What I have seen is a few mhaldorians blowing up many rooms, with timezone abuse, and eleusis raiding..with timezone abuse. To both sides, when you instigate conflict, you're not trying to win. When you instigate conflict, show the people that have harmed you or your org that you are strong enough to face them, at the same time, in a plotted attack. don't just let a person log in with a ton of work to do.

    So, if you want a conflict,be proactive about it. Eleusis, if you don't want a conflict, unenemy everyone from oakstone. I sure won't want to get enemied again. But as long as there is the conflict, no matter how ill formed, do it right, or to the best of your abilities.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • SynbiosSynbios Posts: 4,556Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Blujixapug
    They do these by growing magic trees - birch, oak, rowan, willow, hawthorn, hazel, apple, fir, elder - which churn the soil, crack gravestones and pulverise mausoleums, recycle the dead back into the earth, and interrupt the availability of necromantic power. 
    @Blujixapug:

    I support Gravebusters.

    image
    If there's something strange...in the foresthood,
    Who you gonna call? GRAVEBUSTERS!

    KatzchenKendrickTrilliana
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorPosts: 537Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Suggestions to @Blujixapug's idea. I hate how this post sounds like, "Hey! Nerf the forestals in the brand new idea! Or give our side something to match!" But, forestal classes have area defense abilities because they are charged with defending an area. If Achaea goes this route and provides necromancers with an area to defend, then area defense abilities need looked at.

    * The Dread Ecclesiarch ought to have the ability to enemy individuals to the graveyards, yielding a similar DPS to enemies that is currently in place for forest enemies. Purify would of course remove this DPS. This may be mitigated by the idea to summon zombies in graveyards that Bluji mentioned, however. And also would allow for something unique in its place.

    * Look at balance of the grove skill's forestbinding ability, going both ways. I have no idea what it takes to perform, and have no idea if it would be an unbalancing feature to the above plan. I do know, however, that it prevents people from entering and exiting a specific forest, so that sounds like something that could be a problem in these forest assaults. If it is kept as a defensive option, provide something similar in Necromancy. 

    * Also, Oakstone's watch ability, as well as flow, may need looked at as well. Flow may be easy enough to balance by simply making it not work during an assault, as with Grove Summon. This would avoid having to give an unnecessary travel skill to Necromancers. I think that a watch ability is needed, however.

    * Size of graveyards may need looked at. Azdun's graveyard, for example, is much smaller than some forests, and would be easier to "turn", because of the two-thirds rule.

    * Grove preserve would need to be looked at, and probably removed. If we go this route, the buildup of power for the altar becomes the limiting factor. Grove preserve would present an additional hurdle, because it was a needed mechanic from the old system, as it was the old system's limiting factor.

    Biggest concern that I have is that there's really three options when looking at each one of the forestal abilities that they have for area defense: [1] remove the forestal ability (not ideal); [2] nerf the forestal ability so as not to be usable during an assault (what's the point in having the ability, then?); or [3] give necromancy something similar (PITA coding, potentially unbalances two already-balanced classes, not unique, etc. etc.)
    image
  • MannimarMannimar Posts: 973Member
    The only issue I have with the current setup is the fact that you're limiting this to Mhaldor, Forestals. Perhaps change/create an organization that can be joined, that grants certain abilities/rights to act out this conflict. That way, like Orders, you have a variety of groups vying to defend what their character loves, rather than limiting hurting/healing to forestals and necromancers (albeit it makes sense that they are most effective).
  • SilasSilas Posts: 2,542Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, Nature and Evil are already factions backed by existing cities. If you want to want to defend either faction, join the aligned city.

  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Posts: 1,833Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Mannimar People don't need to be able to double-dip like that. If you want to be a forestal, go be one. Join Eleusis, join Oakstone, go druid. If you have some Cyrenian runewarden inexplicably fighting on behalf of the forests, and able to use all the necessary skills to do so, that waters down what it means to be forestal.

    @Sabiru I agree. Doing something like that would be great if you could manage it, without depersonalising it too much and making it one size fits all (like Icons, which suffer for it).

    But forests vs necro is a fight that's actually happening and that people care about. It's something that most people want redesigned. It seems more sensible to make something for forests vs necro - but to leave openings for it to be expanded later, if occult vs necro or forests vs devo ever become a thing - than to inflate the project into something vastly larger, and then see it inevitably shelved as being too large to handle.

    On a separate/related note I do think Achaea suffers from a lack of ways for cities to meaningfully compete against each other, other than raids, CTFs, and city-based egghunts. Lusternia has its revolts/aetherflares/culture system. Aetolia has ylem. Imperian has shardfalls.
    image
  • MannimarMannimar Posts: 973Member
    You shouldn't be forced to leave city/house just to defend/attack something like forests. If the way your RP works puts you for/against, but if you're HL of some house. Why should you quit just to be able to kill some trees? Allow one to jump in on these fights by giving the authority to a separate organization that one can join while in cities and house. This brings diversity to the defense and attack. It enables a variety of RP to it.
    SilasZeonHalosSherazad
  • NakariNakari Posts: 596Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    so keep oakstone in charge of the forests, add a rival organization, and open membership up in both orgs to everyone?

    SilasLucineZeonAlyssea
  • SilasSilas Posts: 2,542Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No. If your RP reason for attacking the forest isn't stronger than your RP reason to stay in your org, you have to make a choice to stay in your org. Everyone shouldn't get to be/do everything.

    SherazadBlujixapugZeonHalos
  • NakariNakari Posts: 596Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I suppose the relevant question is what the scale of the forest/antiforest conflict should be. Certainly there are conflicts that some are exclusive to some groups, but there are also many that are accessible to everyone who wishes to involve themselves in them

  • SilasSilas Posts: 2,542Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Then involve your org in some way through a Patron-sponsored event, or risk being thrown out of it for dragging it into a conflict it wants no part of.

  • AradorArador Posts: 1,693Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    From what I have seen the current system is lose/lose.

    From a mechanics perspective, Mhaldor is at a severe disadvantage.

    From a PITA perspective, Forestals are screwed.

    I like the whole plants vs zombies idea!

    LucineKatzchen
  • IllyoseIllyose Posts: 68Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    All right, first off I recognize that I am late to this party. I"m not a forestal, I haven't followed through on becoming an ally of Eleusis, and I haven't helped or hindered in exterms or raids on Eleusis. That all said, I think and think and think, and suddenly ideas happen. So I"m gonna throw this out to the masses with more experience and more number sense than myself  as a hopeful idea towards new and meaningful forestal conflict between Mhaldor and all of the Forests. I can only hope that the conflict does find something awesome and cool from the Gardens, but in the mean time I can daydream away and hope that some one with coding skill and authority sees merit in my ideas and the game gets richer for them. 

    Also huge props go out to @Kyriella for suffering through my excited babbling of this for the last two hours. I don't know any of the numbers so a lot of this was just tempered off of her involvement with the forest conflicts, and what sounded good at the time.

    This system would remove one Necromancy ability, namely extermination. This ability would be replaced by two new abilities in Necromancy, countered by two new abilities for forestals, one in concoctions, and one in groves. These abilities would become the core for current "exterm" conflict.

    For necromancers, the first of this paired set would be as follows.

    The effects of the first ability would simply be to create the red fog in the room you are at. This red fog would have the following effects. First, it would "calm" the forest from attacking enemies of the forest. The second would be slowly destroying any plant life in it. Over a period of time it would downgrade all plants in the room a harvestable quantity. For example, it would take an abundant room, down to a moderate level after a period of time. It would continue to do this until a plant was Sparse, finally removing that plant from the room just like the room had been exterminated. Once all plants are exterminated in a room, that room hits the barren room type, just like an extermed room currently. This ability sits in a room for an extend period of time, though does dissipate eventually. 

    The second ability plays upon the first, and is a greater ability to it. It would likely take up the slot of exterminate as it rests now in Necromancy. 


    This second ability creates a beacon for the red fog. The room itself will remain shrouded in the fog so long as the beacon remains, as well as spread the red fog into the surrounding rooms. It will spread for five rooms from the beacon, having the same effects as the summoned red fog from the other ability, minus the fading away so long as it is with in five of the beacon. Setting up this ability would be much like setting a totem currently. No actions besides working the ability and talking could be taken. If set up in a forest room, it would alert oakstone, just like an extermination happening. Unlike totems, this could be a joint ability as well, allowing other necromancers to help profane the room, and increasing the speed in which a beacon is set up. A maximum time reduction and person helping would need to be set up, but I don't know enough about numbers to venture into that direction yet. A beacon could not be placed with in five rooms of another beacon as well. 

    Now I've only detailed the Necromancy abilities here, forestals would gain similar abilities. Rather than spreading the red fog and profaning the landscape though they would summon the blossoms of the Wildwood. Their version of the red fog ability, and would reverse the affects of a red fog. Rather than raising plant levels however (cause yay infinite harvesting) it would simply unexteriminate a room, followed by replanting, and then adding a "defense" level to the room that red fog would have to eat through the next time it tried to exterm the room. This defense level would act as an extra level of Harvestable plant, for all plants in the room with the effect. This ability would be summoned through groves, and would likewise time out like a red fog with out a beacon with in five of it.

    The Beacon of this ability would be growing an actual wildwood tree, that spreads its healing blossoms about itself just like a beacon spreads the red fog. and likewise couldn't be placed with in five of a beacon. This ability would be found with in concoctions. 

    Each ability would grant the ability to destroy a beacon, so forestals could come destroy a profaning room, and necromancers could come destroy a wildwood tree. The system would work like raising them, so multiple people could speed up the process. 

    I phrased all these abilities as Mhaldor/Eleusis however the entire system could be open for any faction/spin you wanted to put on it. The two most active factions involved in the conflict that I"m aware of though, are the two it's being patterned for. However if you've got a spin for it, spin it away!

    At this point I'm running out of steam and think I've hit most of the thoughts I had on the matter and thus turn it over to the forums, seeking the thoughts of all, and the knowledge of those who are actually more familiar with the system behind the world. 


    tl;dr A suggestion for a hopefully fun and practical side of seeing Flowerdor happen. Cause the Forests SHOULD be able to fight back.
    KyriellaValden
  • AepasAepas Posts: 1,619Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A very interesting spin on it, and some ideas I would love to see. However I find a few problems with it from the Mhaldorian angle.

    As a Mhaldorian, I will say that the reason Exterms are so enjoyable (For me) is the fact that we can go around, try to set up a territory, claim it as our own and defend from there while moving out freely. Now don't get me wrong, your idea does indeed have that aspect to it. The only thing I actually fear is how long the "red fog" would take to do anything, which would revert it back to boring old city raid mechanics of entrenching a position and having to wait around until something interesting happens, then look at moving to the next point.

    As well, I do think that you have not fully addressed the issue of Agressors V Defenders. This form of conflict takes a bit longer, would be harder to pull off, but in the end it remains mostly the same. We're still just attacking forests when we feel like it, and they are still just having to defend.

    Also, the wildwood tree thing should not be in concoctions. Mainly because sents don't need that. If anything it would be a groves ability. Sentinel does not actually have a spiritual/magical bond to the forest in the same way that druids and sylvan do. They protect it yes, but they are hunters/woodsmen/survivalists. They don't have the ability to create or use the forest's powers.

    I'm not meaning to shoot anything down, and while I think the mechanics look fun it needs to be revamped a bit into a way that the player base finds more attractive as I do not think it is amazingly different than what we currently have in terms of conflict.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    Valden
  • ValdenValden Posts: 544Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Keep in mind that no good idea ever springs forth from one persons mind fully formed. @Aepas has started things off well by actually taking the idea with merit and looking at what could need changing. I don't want to see this devolve into a wholesale disregard of a view just because someone doesn't agree.
    Kyriella
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorPosts: 537Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Uggh. So, I started the thread, and now I'm regretting it.

    I've come to the conclusion that extermination was never meant as a conflict system. Instead, it was meant to be used as a defensive measure to protect against grove summon, flow, etc. Setup a room with extermination, and that's where your monks, meteor archers, magi cata team, etc all stand. Move into LoS range? Exterm. Forgetting to exterm is kinda like forgetting to put up mass or cloak: stupid, and going to get you killed.

    Honestly, I don't want to see the speed of extermination hampered; it is already slow enough. I also definitely don't want to see extermination removed completely; that would be too much of a nerf to Mhaldor, and too much of a buff to Eleusis. To balance, I'd personally like to see the mechanic removed as a conflict system, and taken back to its original intention: defensive measure.

    How do you do this? Limit the number of rooms able to be exterminated to just one per necromancer. Extermination would become kinda like vibes/rites/harmonics: a room effect that is movable. Flavour wise, a necromancer would perhaps boil their blood using some of their essence to produce a red fog in their room (high eq and essence cost), and then be able to move it from where they last left it to their present location (moderate eq and essence cost). Room effect prevents harvesting while active, but doesn't "kill" plant life in the sense that all plants re-appear once the effect is gone. Room effect then ticks down, possibly with a visible timer, like vibes/rites/harmonics are. 

    As to Oakstone notification, I'm ambivalent in that regard. Goal is to remove the griefy nature of extermination, so I somewhat support removing the notification entirely. Also, the added subterfuge to necromancers certainly wouldn't go missed, either.
    image
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,465Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Illyose must belong in Mhaldor after all, with Necromantic skills like this

    DelphinusEldBlujixapug
  • AwanAwan Posts: 40Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Nizaris said:
    Uggh. So, I started the thread, and now I'm regretting it.

    I've come to the conclusion that extermination was never meant as a conflict system. Instead, it was meant to be used as a defensive measure to protect against grove summon, flow, etc. Setup a room with extermination, and that's where your monks, meteor archers, magi cata team, etc all stand. Move into LoS range? Exterm. Forgetting to exterm is kinda like forgetting to put up mass or cloak: stupid, and going to get you killed.
    This is a fair point.

    If extermination is deleted, then probably monoliths (or something like that) should prevent grove summon. Grove summon's main reason for existing is defending against extermination anyhow.

    As for grove flow, I'd be open to nerfing that too, though it might be necessary to balance out gravehands/the fact that forestals are very melee-centric/the fact that Eleusis is the only city where you can't implant totems in the defendable area. If you don't want people to flow to you, you can prop a totem.

    However, once Oakstone defenses are deleted, the restriction on implanting totems in the forest ought to be lifted, as there wouldn't really be any more justification for it anymore. If that happened and we got to put totems up all over Eastern Ithmia, then nerfing grove flow would make more sense.

    tl;dr: The solution is to delete extermination, and if necessary for balance, nerf the forestal skills that exist only to help us cope with it. The solution is not to try to make extermination suck slightly less.
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,664Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Toteming entire forests?! *perk*
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    TrillianaSherazadSylvanceMelodie
  • TrillianaTrilliana Posts: 1,986Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We used to have totems EVERYWHERE, every grove had one, and then the forests ate the totems, IIRC. Great event too if I remember it.
    meh


  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorPosts: 537Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Awan said:
    If extermination is deleted, then probably monoliths (or something like that) should prevent grove summon. Grove summon's main reason for existing is defending against extermination anyhow.

    As for grove flow, I'd be open to nerfing that too, though it might be necessary to balance out gravehands/the fact that forestals are very melee-centric/[1] the fact that Eleusis is the only city where you can't implant totems in the defendable area. If you don't want people to flow to you, you can prop a totem.

    However, once Oakstone defenses are deleted, the restriction on implanting totems in the forest ought to be lifted, as there wouldn't really be any more justification for it anymore. If that happened and we got to put totems up all over Eastern Ithmia, then nerfing grove flow would make more sense.

    tl;dr: The solution is to delete extermination, and if necessary for balance, nerf the forestal skills that exist only to help us cope with it. [2] The solution is not to try to make extermination suck slightly less.
    [1] Mhaldor can't totem the island; Ashtan/Hashan/Cyrene doesn't have an analogue, to my knowledge. Targossas is special, as they don't have city guards, and no clearly-defined borders for what is the city and what is the "surrounding area", yet.

    [2] Where is "the suck" in my suggestion? It's true that I envision it as essentially a flavoured monolith that stops flow/summon/forest defenses. Hell, I don't really object to your suggestion, as it would certainly be easier than exterming: monoliths are quicker to throw down/flame, monos stop more than just flow/summon, monos don't cost essence. But, there's still a flavour that's missing -- Evil needs to be, well, evil, dammit. :D

    I propose neutering extermination quite fully: one room per necromancer, have it not even generate an Oakstone warning because no damage is truly done:
    • Picture a cloud that inhibits natural processes; not one that destroys and burns nature.
    • Shorten time limit of extermination to something similar to rites/vibes/harmonics, at which point, the cloud dissipates and natural processes continue.
    • Cloud is moved when summoned to a different location. This allows natural processes in the original location to continue as though nothing had happened in the first place.
    • Give forestals the ability to gust the cloud away when in the same room in one of their morphs.
    Evil wouldn't even have a goal to accomplish in the forest itself; the goal would be in Eleusis, or shrines within the forests, perhaps -- systems that are already balanced in the sense that each side can attack the other equally. Extermination would just be reduced to a defensive measure to facilitate those conflicts, not a conflict in itself.

    As for not having anything to do to cause Evil the same amount of inconvenience: just raid Mhaldor. Mhaldor's culture is such that defending is not an option. The expectation is to drop what you're doing, and go defend. I've had it ruin RP, too. And yes, we even still have to fight when we're outnumbered.
    image
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthPosts: 951Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Honestly, these threads tire me so much and I sort of feel bad about people who are optimistic with it. There are so many good ideas but it's like the thing with Sartan. There's a problem but it looks like it's being forgotten. I mean, I wanna be optimistic in everything but ugh. 
    Trying to write about games, series, movies at Geeksauce Rocks! On hiatus D:
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


    BlujixapugSylvance
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