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Forest Conflict

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Comments

  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,707 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You mean there are no group fertilisation rituals?!
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    KatzchenTrevize
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    You mean there are no group fertilisation rituals?!
    No idea!


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Delete forests, no more issue.
    Idelisa
  • WysteriaWysteria Member Posts: 1,826 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's at the stage forestals will replant/rejuv within 15 mins of an exterm simply due to OCD. RP or no, it's so ingrained in me to do that, after two rl years, I just have to do it otherwise I'd feel guilty or lazy.

    To balance it out, exterminations will damage a room permanently, but the real repercussion comes in the enemies that do it will eventually have the wrath of the forests knock them out of a good few hundred rooms in the mainland. It's not exactly a hit to Evil or anything, but I see that as a decent enough inconvenience at least to the individual.

    Looking forward to any new changes that do come in though. Will be interesting to see how it pans out (even if just in beta).
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

  • SabiruSabiru Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    That's fair enough. To be honest I'm not sure why anyone would join Eleusis if not solely to rejuvenate the forests ASAP after exterminations. What else is there for you to do?

    I'd be perfectly fine with extermination only lasting half an hour if the caveat was that Eleusis had to act like the other major centres of conflict and actively go anti-city. Every time someone above CR1 shies away from either initiating or furthering a potentially fun RP conflict with somebody other than Mhaldor-because-red-fog, though, a random wilderness room should catch fire. Everybody else is at least pretending to be fighting with everybody else, you all are dropping.the.ball.
    Mishgul
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eleusis just needs to give mhaldor 620 gp for a peace treaty and i can buy 6 cocoas and everyone important will be happy.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Nim
  • SabiruSabiru Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2013
    No here I've done it for them.

    The Laws of Nature

    The realms are at their purest when unsoiled by the poisoned touch of industry. Hence, the sole duty of the savage is to restore the Natural Order.

    To defile the land with structures of steel and stone is to make an enemy of the noble savage.

    The re-gifting of the land to the Wildwood Queen is paramount. The trivial scriptures of false idols are beneath the natural man.

    etc.


    You're welcome, extermination now means barely anything and you have the coolest faction by far. Now go, no more forums until it's fixed.

    WysteriaBlujixapugCorbeaux
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Brb, googling how to Greenpeace to improve my forestal v everyone rp
    Sabiru
  • FrohFroh Member Posts: 52 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Penwize said:
    Well, IC, we actually have no way of knowing.  It hasn't been a year and no room has been left for more than a year exterminated.  Nothing IC has indicated exterminations are weaker, or that Nature is stronger.  Honestly, nobody in the community would let something stand exterminated for a year to begin with, but as it is the change has not even been in for that long.  You could make up some random thing, but it wouldn't really be verifiable, so I can sort of see the reasoning behind the hardline RP not changing at all with this.  Something has to actually indicate to people that it happens and exists now, even just a short word from Gaia that she has strengthened the forests would be enough to curb that.


    To be honest, that attitude would strike me as being difficult.  A little nudge from the divine in-game would help, but honestly: when has any game-mechanics change announced via, say, Announce, resulted in characters standing there with their fingers in their ears saying "I can't hear you and haven't seen it for myself so I don't know yet"?  I'm thinking of theft, landmarks, the war system, ...  : did your character really continue to walk around indefinitely acting as if nothing had changed?  Who's downloaded a new Vadi or Omnipave including changes or even existing mechanics that they haven't personally seen yet with a particular character?

    Wysteria hit the nail on the head with her OCD comment- this is on partly on us.

    Sarapis is trying to give us a helping hand here, and told us that there's more coming, but at some point we need to participate.

     

  • FavoniusFavonius Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'll keep this short and sweet. The problem for me with extermination was never its permanence. The problem was that it would impose itself on your gameplay like a fire alarm going off.

    You could be bang in the middle of some carefully cultivated roleplay and someone with no interest in RP could decide to ring your doorbell and run away, mentioning no Tiamats. (Sorry, bro.)

    The problem, basically, is this happening:

    "Through your link with Nature, you feel a foul breach upon the sanctity of the Blahblah Forest."

    This wording is important. Exterminations are the most important thing in Forestals' world because for years the game has been telling them THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN YOUR WORLD. If you don't want players to feel an obligation to drop everything, basically don't flash them a big yellow IC warning every time it happens.

    I just used to QQ and come back later. :P
    Idelisa
  • WysteriaWysteria Member Posts: 1,826 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's yellow? I did not know that. I've made all my Oakstone lines come out as an eye-bleed worthy white text on red background :P
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Wysteria: It's whatever colour you've configured OAKT to be.
    Wysteria
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Favonius said:

    I'll keep this short and sweet. The problem for me with extermination was never its permanence. The problem was that it would impose itself on your gameplay like a fire alarm going off.

    I assume you hear it for every forest in the world. Just as a thought, what if you only heard it for a single forest - the forest you had a grove in, for instance? Would that force Eleusis/Oakstone to sit down and decide which forests they can and can't reasonably protect? Or would it just be better to remove the warning messages entirely?

    Personally, I find it weird that forestals are expected to protect places aside from Sapience, given that they're a Sapience organization. Personally, I think that forests outside of Sapience ought to randomly fix themselves via local forestals, or whatnot. Like, maybe every game day, depending on the island and what resources it'd have for doing that, damaged forests could have a chance of being restored if no one's watching, or something like that.

    And it could literally have an IC reason of "other people maintain nature too, you know!" Heck, you could apply that to Sapience's forests too. There're plenty of denizen forestal... things. I think. I'm almost certain there are.

    My opinion doesn't matter too much, but what do you forestal people think?

  • AnatralAnatral Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have a longer contribution to make when I have some more time, but I would like to agree with the argument that forestals, in general, are extremely change averse. See, for example, the ordeal required to make the Druids join Eleusis and all the spite and grief over IG centuries involved there. Another example would be the arrogance and outright dismissal Reihaneh was met with when she challenged Delphinus. That election campaign was one of the most exciting political periods in Anatral's time, even though it resulted in... surprise surprise, no change.

    This change-averse issue is not a unique phenomenon in Achaea, however and those claiming the moral high ground need to look deep into their own motivation - how did Mhaldor get on with "Keresis is on the same level as the twin lords"? (I apologise if this seems catty, just an example among many)

    I am entirely motivated to change our faction, I am hugely motivated to make a difference, and Anatral and other malcontents do plot quietly in darkened corners. The results of this plotting are not quite there yet, but this mechanical change does help a tiny bit. I should also say that I believe Gaia's intervention right now in the way some have expressed above would not be helpful as she is already viewed with suspicion by some.
    Tvistor said:
    Achievement Unlocked : Made A God Feel Guilty.
    Idelisa
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2013
    The difference between the Keresis affair and that election seems to be that we actually had conflict over the whole thing

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Sherazad
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also that Mhaldor ended up with 0 gods (again).

    Mishgul
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's okay. Mhaldor the city of Atheists has been born.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • VansittartVansittart Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sabiru said:
    No here I've done it for them.

    The Laws of Nature

    The realms are at their purest when unsoiled by the poisoned touch of industry. Hence, the sole duty of the savage is to restore the Natural Order.

    To defile the land with structures of steel and stone is to make an enemy of the noble savage.

    The re-gifting of the land to the Wildwood Queen is paramount. The trivial scriptures of false idols are beneath the natural man.

    etc.


    You're welcome, extermination now means barely anything and you have the coolest faction by far. Now go, no more forums until it's fixed.

    Yes.  I would totally join this faction.  Eleusis needs a more meaningful purpose than just being "anti-necromancy".

    Delphinus said:
    @Vansittart: You just replied to a completely mechanics-based argument with "Is it so hard to change your RP?"

    The thing is, it isn't just a matter of RP. This is such a disgustingly complex topic, involving not just the murky bugaboos of player morale, RP expectations, restraint, and written role design, but more solid beasts like skill usage, XP loss, essence gain/cost, and curative supply for a given side. There is absolutely zero way to balance the system (short of scrapping it altogether), simply because it ties into so many different and otherwise unrelated things.
    That's very silly and reductionist.  It isn't a completely mechnics-based argument, as you go on to acknowledge in the very next paragraph and I would be completely supportive of a debate where all the factors you mention are addressed as part of a comprehensive reform of forest conflict.  However, Nature was just offered a mechanics band-aid to make their playing lives less boring: one that could be rendered effective through RP decisions or ineffective through the same.
     
    I think it's important to remember that if you are offered a bit of help and respond to it with endless whinging and purposive rejection, then it makes that comprehensive reform all the less likely.  Silas is exactly right: one of the reasons Targossas took so long to get going was because the Good faction was regarded as a pit of incestuous, egomaniacal, divisive complainers who could be sent a cupcake in the post and would smear it all over their faces and cry rather than eat it and say thank you.  I have a suspicion that Nature is much the same, just less obviously so as it is generally less divided.  Typing this, I remembered you getting expelled from something or other for a nature ritual in which you killed a bunny (or something).  I rest my case.  Well, I'm not sure that has anything to do with the rest of the post so I either rest my case or just lulz pointlessly.  Either.


     

    Silas
  • LeyliahLeyliah Member Posts: 11 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I still don't understand why sylvans/druids/sentinels are limited to only one city these days. Being attuned to forests/animals/spirits/elemental magics is an awesome character concept and just putting a general ban on them from joining any city except Eleusis just seems boring. I was gone when Alchemists were first implemented so I'm not really familiar with the reasoning behind this decision, so if anyone knows please feel free to educate me (could send me a message so the thread don't get derailed). I would appreciate it.
    IdelisaCamande
  • VansittartVansittart Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2013
    Leyliah said:
    I still don't understand why sylvans/druids/sentinels are limited to only one city these days. Being attuned to forests/animals/spirits/elemental magics is an awesome character concept and just putting a general ban on them from joining any city except Eleusis just seems boring. I was gone when Alchemists were first implemented so I'm not really familiar with the reasoning behind this decision, so if anyone knows please feel free to educate me (could send me a message so the thread don't get derailed). I would appreciate it.

    As far as I understood it, the idea was go concentrate Nature as a faction, rather than have it as a faction spread throughout Sapience and, therefore, generally ideologically diffuse and unable to act as a coherent whole.  Alchemy was supposed to act as a city-based alternative to the forestal skill-set, gradually over time tipping cities towards the alchemical and away from nature in an attempt to maintain a distiction between Nature and Civilisation.

    I don't think that's boring, I think it's awesome.  I don't think people have really run with it, because inertia is the strongest force in Achaea and there hasn't been (IMO) the drive on the player, or Divine side, to really push past it.

    FavoniusSilasTrevize
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hey what if forestals could attack gateways to the Inferno realm, and if a gate was destroyed then the corresponding Apostasy daemon would be summoned as "a weak-looking daemonite" or "a pathetic Baalzadeen" instead of its normal version, and would have 20% reduced health.
    image
  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Because then that would be landmarking, only always-on.

    I guess that's also true of the current situation, so whatever.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Silas said:
    The Garden right now are listening more to the playerbase than they have in -years-, but the onus is still on the players to sometimes shut the fuck up and just get stuck in.
    Yeah, guys. Stop being so onal retentive.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sorry to invite hatred by even further necromancing this thread, but it's been on my mind.

    I think the last change was bad because

    1. It was done via Announce post. Not something a dryad did, or the forest spirits made happen, or Gaia decreed. Announce posts are where you announce Vegas trips or Christmas credit sales or new server hardware; you can't discuss that stuff over citytells, it's OOC. If you want this to change the paradigm of forestal behaviour, you need them comfortable in discussing it freely. That doesn't require a huge event or anything - though those are always nice - just a world message and Gaia shouting something.

    2. It didn't change any gameplay. The only forestals who benefit from this are forestals who don't log in. Any who play are still going to rejuvenate and replant, because of course they are.

    3. It weakened the concept of extermination for the sake of no gameplay benefit. Previously, ignoring all gameplay mechanics, extermination was something conceptually pure: it was orcs vs ents at Isengard. The bad guys using black magic to totally eradicate the forest and salting the earth behind them. People destroying the forests vs people protecting the forests. And the forests needed their protectors. In a game where people are always desperately looking for a real way to represent their team and make their mark, bend the world to their will, this was gold.

    Now, that's all a little weaker. Not a lot, but a little. And not because of something Gaia did to strengthen the forests or weaken necromancy, but because of an arbitrary, quasi-OOC Announce post. Extermination is something less vile. The forests don't need their protectors as much. That's bad. You wouldn't say, "Chaos isn't that much of a threat to reality," or, "Devotion isn't really holy, it's just some weird rituals you mortals made up," so I don't see why this.
    image
    SherazadAwanNakari
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