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Comments
You're kind of assuming the answer by putting the gods highest.
Achaea intentionally includes divided loyalties, for example: city, house, order. Not everyone is supposed to pick a god and put them first (not even people in some orders). Not everyone is supposed to put their city first (or their house). In the case of the particular group of forestals you're singling out, those who don't have faithful/blind obedience to Gaia as their highest goal, the loyalty isn't too different from those who pledge themselves to a city.
A monolithic inflexible dogma adopted by a group is a problem if it leads to stagnation.
The first part of that has never really been a problem with forestals- there's no one single leader or vision. There's no particular definition of what protecting/helping nature means. As far as political unity, it was never difficult for most folks to get herbs/concoctions even during a ban or impossible for even dedicated forest enemies to obtain them even before the alternatives were made available recently.
Back on topic, I think you'll find that forestals are quite willing to reorient given the opportunity: the idea of helping Nature comes with somewhat less emotional baggage than Shallam had in defending "Good" and there's much less uniformity in term of favored deities, other values, etc.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
• I can lay claim to receiving nearly all of my city favours from just patrolling and reporting (being CR3 by time Wyst was 40 you can imagine this being crazy what). Anyone who was around during the Mhashtan days with 70+ exterms per day would be able to attest to me filling up the entire Eleusis logs with exterm reports to the point I was actually asked to stop doing it to such a level. When I say entire, I'm talking 15-20 entries just by myself in a space of 4-6hours. I wasn't even in Oakstone at the time. However, lately all the CFs have been going to the peeps who defend during peak hour, so the Thoth Hour ones don't get spotted as much. This is why I'm so neurotic when logging things in at my time — it's just for player recognition that not everyone has to die to work for Nature, though those who do really should get noted down as well. We handle the graveyard shift after all.
• I would like to see an experiment conducted: have people exterminate every single forest room available, then do not rejuvenate . Hypothetically speaking you would have no more essence for the necro-users, no groves for Sylvans and Druids and of course no plants to be able to harvest. No sunlight, no staves, no harmony. You would have pretty much rendered three whole classes useless and stupid as they need working forests to function in order to be a Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel. From a game mechanic perspective we literally have no choice but to go "clean up on aisle Aalen", rejuvenate, waste huge amounts of mana using ice, and replant everything with cuttings if we're lucky to get them…thus wasting up to an hour fixing the crap. Then there's the logging and reporting and patrolling and expenditures on comms etc etc etc.
I'm not sure if Apostates and Infernals have to spend this much time and energy for post-operative procedures. This is part and parcel why it's such a pain. Our RP of fixing Nature is fine, but really it's getting to be like cleaning up a drunken party's vomit all over the pub floor, being paid peanuts and bending over to be taken from behind by the creepy boss simply because it means you'll have enough money for the bus ride home. It can be so disheartening but as players we just do it. The very concept of extermination is sound, but the execution will always be a problem.
• When and if I log in, it's usually to a pretty dumb sanctioned raid with next to no people, if they get bored, they go exterminate. They don't like you? Exterminate. I killed your golem! Exterminate. The Oakstone sixth sense deathsight thing is great to have for us to spot the exterms (while I'm at it, thank you thank you @Sarapis and @Tecton for making holocausts not affect forests) but again, we can't help it if we announce it to CT. We need those numbers and some of the best fighters aren't in the Council. To make a point of it, I took aaages to get into Oakstone because noone who could induct ever played at my time. I had to log in at like 4am on a Tuesday just to get mine done. So this is where the timezone issues happen.
Not sure about other people, but there are times I just go CT Exterm WI and noone responds on Oaktsone OR Eleusis. Some either hide from the fights or even hide from the bloody repairs too.
• The problem stems from both a game mechanic of what exterminations are, and the player base's collective mentality of something that has been ingrained into us after so, so many years. We try to change it, we get RP backfire as if you'd accidentally flicked a rubber band into your face and forestals will get lazy. We don't try to change it, we get OOC rants like these and soon forestals just won't care anymore and the skirmishes will no longer be fun for either factions. We need some kind of balance.
Solution? I don't know. Take a poll, make people send in one solution/concept 25 words or less, process of elimination then go have a beer and scratch your head on whether or not it was a good idea in the first place.
Losing their light in the glorious sun,
Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
Only remembered for what we have done."
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
*reiterates for the 90th time.
Just add a limitation to the mechanic, and/or recruit more asian Eleusians to combat the 90 asian Mhaldorks
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Mhaldor: Take ALL the Asians!
(bar a few here)
Losing their light in the glorious sun,
Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
Only remembered for what we have done."
True, but if you discover that you accidentally implemented a "grief" command then sometimes nerfing it helps.
(see Wysteria's and other posts- when a mechanic allows you to cause lots of aggravation for very little effort, it might be unbalanced)
It's not true that nature gods can't control or change the ideology. If a nature god says something is true, that's a powerful reason for any forestal to take it to be true, because they obviously are in a position to know better than we do. Alternately, forestals have always taken the word of, say, dryads, that if they say something is wrong something's wrong. You don't need forestals to think that Gaia is the embodiment of Nature, that serving Nature means unquestioning obedience to Gaia, or to have Eleusis reconstituted as a theocracy, in order to have the gods able to change Eleusis's direction.
It's just that gods might have to put slightly more work into it than just making a pronouncement with no explanation, and what the god says has to be at least potentially consistent with the forestal ideology, and something people reasonably feel they can embrace without going against their principles. They can't be telling us to throw everything we thought before in the trash, and embrace a position that looks like betraying Nature or ceasing to defend Nature. But they shouldn't be doing that anyhow, so that isn't really a problematic limitation.
Working within the current belief system will work out a heck of a lot better than if we tried to turn Eleusis into something like Shallam, where whatever the gods say goes without question even if it seems to the people to go against their principles. Doing that would be so divisive, so opposed to what's always been taught, that it would wreck the faction for years. And it's just not needed.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Oh, yes, there are definitely at least three different types of potential problems in an area like this:
A mechanic that amounts to "spend a penny to earn a nickel and cost someone else a dime" (extermination)
Someone playing in the spirit of an acceptable mechanic but in a way that's not fun long term for the group (the evolving PK rules, Mark status, pure PK areas, etc.)
A dedicated griefer
I'm not claiming that you can solve the second or third through mechanics alone.
I am claiming that the first is definitely something to look at from a game mechanics point of view.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Works for me.
You could also scale it up: petty vandalism gets naturally healed but if several exterminators begin a process that takes half a RL day or more to get going and then if not stopped trashes a significant chunk of the forest in question.
Making it both significant and occasional would make the defenders feel like they're doing something meaningful and not just having their beepers constantly go off to pick up the broken glass and trash every time the kids from Mhaldor throw a rowdy kegger in the woods.
It would probably be nicer for the defenders if the limit were on how often the forest can get attacked, not on how often a particular person can attack it.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
PS I hate that Druids have to be a part of Eleusis. It takes away a lot of what they have always stood for.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
If Eleusis loses its vastly imbalanced defensive obligations, and replaces that with a more offensive focus, that will actually make much more space for non-combatants to be non-combatants without feeling obligated to fight. Defense, for obvious reasons, feels much more obligatory than participation in offensive actions. So, to Solteria, I don't think the offensive goals will actually make things worse for the non-combatants who would prefer not to fight.
In Achaea, being part of an aligned org is largely about conflict. You don't have to fight to be involved in conflict, but nevertheless, there has to be some kind of struggle -- some great and driving ideal that's at least worth fighting over, which stirs your character to act. It's what makes for a good story. Or as Blujixapug put it,
This is probably almost off-topic, but I think it's something important to keep in mind when you're discussing an open roleplaying atmosphere, like an Achaean city.
While conflict drives stories, the presumption that roleplaying must be conflict-driven is related to the presumption that roleplaying is like writing a story. For some people it can be, but there are other reasons to roleplay (escapism is one, as well as acting as people or in scenarios that are unlikely or outright imaginary) which don't require conflict in such an direct form, or even conflict at all.
Finally, even where there is conflict, it doesn't need to be martial. Inter- and intrapersonal conflict can take many forms, and given the vast amount of games and other media focused around war or fighting, non-militaristic conflict can sometimes be a breath of fresh air.
Pvp can be fun sometimes, but my favorite forms of conflict so far have been Nim and @Verrucht getting steamed at each other over semi-political stuff, or Nim leaving the Mojushai and being mad at @Iocun. Also, Nim and Iocun arguing about things is pretty amazing in general. Maybe it's because violence is so insignificant in Achaea that arguments can be more significant. (losing your life just means waiting for the Gods to give it back; losing a friend can be so much more devastating!)
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
Northeastern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading southeast and northwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
p vapourator
Nothing can be seen here by that name.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
p vaporater
I do not recognise anything called that here.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
p vaporator
Tall and spindly, this device comprises an equidistant quartet of slender exterior pipes, each attached by two brackets to a central tower of various mechanical units. Scoured by dust, its once-pristine white surface bears streaks of superficial corrosion; nevertheless, it is in working condition. Every so often, a droplet of water condenses from the surrounding air upon the device's refrigerated pipes, and runs downwards, drawn by its own weight, to the micropore holes of a collection inlet. The vaporator is rooted within the ground, with pipes connecting to an underground reservoir.
A moisture vaporator is configured with 1 of 4 refrigeration pipes active.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
nw
Northern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading north, southeast, and southwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sw
Northwestern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading northeast and southwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sw
Western moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. Its intake clogged with fine grit, a moisture vaporator stands here, inoperative.
You see exits leading northeast and southeast.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sigh
You heave a sigh of tedium.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
maintain vapourator
You cannot see that being here.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
maintain vaporator
How do you wish to maintain the vaporator? See AB MOISTUREFARMING VAPORATORS for details.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
maintain vaporator intake
With a cloth, brush, and fine needle, you clean the micropore intakes of a moisture vaporator, rendering it functional once more.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
activate vaporator
Thumbing its power supply, you activate a moisture vaporator, and are rewarded with the faint hum of activity.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
configure vaporator 1 pipe
Twisting an innocuous dial upon a moisture vaporator, you configure it to activate 1 of 4 refrigeration pipes.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
se
Southwestern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading southeast and northwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
se
Southern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading north, northeast, and northwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Lars Settlement): Owen says, "You checked them vaporaters yet, boy?"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Lars Settlement): You say, "Doing it now, uncle."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Lars Settlement): Owen says, "Well hurry up."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Lars Settlement): Owen says, "Meant to be a mean storm tonight."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Lars Settlement): You say, "Yes, uncle."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
ne
Southeastern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading northeast and southwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
Eastern moisture collectors.
The twin suns lean low in the pale pink sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading southwest and northwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
The red sun slips below the horizon, leaving its pale partner alone in the darkening blue sky.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sw
Southeastern moisture collectors.
The yellow sun hangs pale and lonely in the dusken sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading northeast and southwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sw
Southern moisture collectors.
The yellow sun hangs pale and lonely in the dusken sky. A moisture vaporator juts from the arid soil.
You see exits leading north, northeast, and northwest.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
n
Threshold of the Lars homestead.
The yellow sun hangs pale and lonely in the dusken sky. An arch-shaped door marks the entrance to the hemispherical building at the centre of the Lars homestead.
You see exits leading south and in.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): You say, "Anything going on?"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): Laze says, "Not really."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): You say, "What about those Jawas from last week?"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): Laze says, "Nothing."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): You say, "Oh. Well. Any new power converters in?"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): Laze says, "Nope!"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): You say, "Any chance my T-16'll be fixed up this month?"
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
(Tosche Station): Laze says, "Still waiting on parts."
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
sigh
You heave a sigh of tedium.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
quit
Clarification is in order.
480h, 0f, 2400e, 2400w ex-
[/spoiler]
As for the point about roleplay being (not necessarily) conflict-driven, that's true, but the conflict between the major factions is a large part of what makes the setting a compelling one in which to play, whatever form your roleplay takes. Sure, some people may be happiest playing a moisture farmer on Tattooine, but they wouldn't know about Tattooine as a setting in which to play if it weren't for the compelling story of the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire and all that jazz.
Ah. I took his statement as being "you don't need to fight to be involved in a war," as many other people've said in this thread, as opposed to "conflict doesn't have to be violent."
Also, I personally disagree that factional conflict in Achaea makes the setting compelling; I think, in its current form, it weakens the setting more than anything, particularly thanks to the lack of resolution. That's my own personal opinion though, and I hardly know how many people agree with it.
Anyway, I just wanted to hammer in the point that not everyone roleplays for the sake of conflict - not that conflict is bad or shouldn't exist at all (although I personally think forced conflict is usually worse than no conflict, and that it should come about as naturally as possible), but it sounds like some people feel that Eleusis is generally over-emphasizing that aspect of roleplay, and maybe it could use more peaceful roleplaying and stuff.