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Forest Conflict

NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
edited September 2012 in The Golden Dais of Creation
Slight derail in the quotes thread, and I promised to move it here, so that the quotes thread can continue to do it's thing in peace.


I will try to copy relevant quotes from all interested parties into this thread, so that we can have some context, and continue our discussion.

Please note, this is a serious thread in the Dais. Let's all please be responsible in discussion. As @Delphinus said in the mentioned thread, the point is interaction, not complete destruction of one side or the other.

ETA: I don't think that we will come to any solid conclusions in this thread, but it might be handy to have an ongoing place for discussion, and maybe small ideas or a general direction can be gleaned from our efforts.
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Comments

  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Synbios said:
    ANNOUNCE NEWS #3710
    Date: 9/19/2012 at 0:59
    From: Tecton, the Terraformer
    To  : Everyone
    Subj: Conflict changes

    I've just made some tweaks to some of the various conflict systems
    across Achaea. The goal of these are to make things a little more
    balanced from both an attacking and defending point of view. We have
    some plans for larger overhauls of most of these areas in the near
    future, but for now, I present:

    * Alchemist damage to Icons has been reduced slightly.
    * The essence value of player corpses has been significantly reduced.
    * Holocaust damage no longer damages forest and jungle rooms.

    We'll be monitoring these changes and making tweaks or modifications
    where necessary.

    image
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2012

    Katzchen said:
    WTF, no more holocaust? Well we may as well just give up forest conflict. Or are they going to get rid of grove summon too, because with it exterminate is freaking useless.

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  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tanris said:

    All good changes. Could use a toning down or removal of forest defs to complement no holo, and a reduction in essence loss to mitigate reduced gain from offering, but this fixes some of the most frustrating aspects of the various conflict systems.


    image
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Nizaris said:
    I agree with @Katzchen on this: the @Cain Holo-train was the only way we could cause any sort of large-scale damage to the forests, when grove summon can transport us cross-continent into a completely different forest so quickly.

    ETA: This one is probably for the class-leads, but I think that one (possible) way to solve this would be to make grove-summon area only. It already makes little sense from an RP perspective how a grove can eject you from one forest and into another.

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  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I was utterly serious when I said it was becoming let's-not-have-this-conversation-again-y. Over the course of the past few years, we've said all there is to say.
    SilasAntidasZeon
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Delphinus said:
    @Nizaris: You guys have done wide-scale damage just fine with groups of exterminators. All holocaust did was encourage (require) us to bring huge teams against single people (since we have to kill them quickly), and encourage (require) us to sit around waiting for them, since they'd otherwise disappear to Mhaldor before we could deal with it directly.

    And when we raid Mhaldor to deal with it, we get accused of time zone abuse. #AllOfMyShrugs

    Mishgul said:
    These changes will encourage people to exterminate off plane more often  as oppose to make the conflict more meaningful from the attitudes I see from both sides.

    Katzchen said:
    Delphinus said:
    @Nizaris: You guys have done wide-scale damage just fine with groups of exterminators. All holocaust did was encourage (require) us to bring huge teams against single people (since we have to kill them quickly), and encourage (require) us to sit around waiting for them, since they'd otherwise disappear to Mhaldor before we could deal with it directly.

    And when we raid Mhaldor to deal with it, we get accused of time zone abuse. #AllOfMyShrugs

      Done wide-scale damage just fine, what 300 years ago? Hasn't happened lately. Too many Eleusians ready to immediately go to their grove and summon you. Not much you can do with a 20 second balance regen. When @Nizaris said 'wide scale' he probably means about 8-12 rooms, because that's the most I've seen lately. And those were in direct response to Eleusian raids on Mhaldor. Doesn't take much to regen that, and you don't have to regen with forest defs hitting you, while being open pk to your enemies, and with the threat of beings summoned and slaughtered long before you even get balance back, often before your exterminate even works on the room.


    Agree with @mishgul all this will achieve is we will have to go out of our way to avoid trying to exterminate on plane, or while defenders are around.


    Delphinus said:
    @Katzchen: No, like a few weeks ago.

    I think the problem here is that you're putting the focus on "damaging the forest" and not "encouraging interaction." This might be an unhealthy attitude to carry in.

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  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Delphinus said:
    I was utterly serious when I said it was becoming let's-not-have-this-conversation-again-y. Over the course of the past few years, we've said all there is to say.
    @Delphinus: Hey, if you're not interested in stressing yourself out over it, I can fully understand and appreciate that.

    But, I'm hoping that we can come up with something constructive that does promote interaction.

    I think that both the Forest and anti-forest (I am using general terms here, because I don't necessarily think that this should become aligned strictly with Mhaldor) need to have areas of control that they are able to attack and defend. The easy solution to this, of course, is to use Mhaldor's fog, and allow for it to be spread and beaten back, but I don't want to necessarily eliminate the chance of Chaos attacking the forest as well by aligning the "anti-forest" too closely with Mhaldor.
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  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    To add some purpose to the fight, and also some more flavour to alchemists, areas where the anti-forest has been put in place over the forest could generate primes and minerals, instead of herbs. Of course, these rooms could be flipped back to forest again, and vice-versa.
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  • LeighannLeighann Member Posts: 13 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    My sentiment boils down to "delete Oakstone" much like the Church.

    Make forests just like any other room, i.e. delete exterminate.

    Note, I'm biased, but I don't think it's exactly fair that I have to spend 2-3 RL years Open-PK and attacked in the forests for 15-30 minutes of exterminating Zanzibaar. Especially given that I've been trying for over half that time to get unenemied and it requires moving mountains just to get a reply on what I have to do.

    With alchemy, I think there should be a similar relationship between forestals and Eleusis that necromancers and Mhaldor have or devotionists and Shallam have.
    BlujixapugExelethrilKresslackHhaosKyrra
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Leighann: I think that the main problem with forest conflict right now is that as @Delphinus, @Silas, and @Mishgul pointed out: there's no real way for the forest to strike back. There's no point or objective to be reached. It's a one-sided conflict, which is not conflict at all.
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  • TiamatTiamat Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have been a forest enemy since 2003. It would be a shame to delete the whole conflict one year short of a decade perma-enemy status. (Which in the past I have tried to resolve in a calm and collected manor. Of course Oakstone told me where to shove it but that is another story.)
    VasoolSherazadLodi
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthMember Posts: 956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Not really surprised and not even bothered. There are always new threads when there are returning players and new issues about forest conflict. It never dies. 

    Maybe it will, in the near future. ;)
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


  • AzorAzor Member Posts: 145
    I'm glad they're redesigning forest conflict. Hopefully the solution will be one that doesn't preclude me from normal use of multiple large central areas as well as any number of peripheral areas. The way things are now has internal consistency, but I agree with whoever it was that said earlier--surely nobody would've set out to design it the way it is now. Really, it would be fine if FOREST conflict (as opposed to City-of-Eleusis conflict) were pursued purely through RP. I mean, there's no hard-coded mechanism to expand or roll back the red fog, or the taint of chaos, etc. I think deleting extermination and forest defs tomorrow would be great, frankly. Mhaldor can still go after the forest through RP events, and vice versa.
    KatzchenDelphinusTukio
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,206 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Fan of Exterminate and forest destruction and wars surrounding it.

    Holocaust was not designed for a fair conflict scenario.

    Summon/Flow need tuning as suggested in classleads.

    Everything has been said 50 times over.
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    Lilley
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,014 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Turn all trees to stone, then convert all this energy into improvements for the important stuff....like ships.


    JesparRakon
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,895 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aerek is right, although he totally lost to Mark at CoH.

    Mark.
    PM me if you want to playtest a MUD.
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,561 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kresslack said:
    Turn all trees to stone, then convert all this energy into improvements for the important stuff....like ships.
    But then you'll have the mineral-munchersAlchemists forming an organization to manage all that ripe edible stone, like Rockstone.

  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hmm so I started coming up with a little plan/proposal for a new forest conflict system, and the big obstacle I hit was regarding ways for Oakstone to attack necromancy. At present, Mhaldor = necromancy = Twin Lords, and none of them have any assets outside Mhaldor Island that could be used as targets.

    The red fog, the island itself, the stalagmite, Blackrock etc are all in the same geographical area. In addition to the issue of having them all accessed through the same restrictive choke-points, having them all clustered around Mhaldor makes the activity seem like a glorified city raid.

    I thought about inventing some new necromancy-affiliated assets for Oakstone to attack - as necromancers can attack the major forests, which are geographically widespread - but I don't know if it's unreasonable to expect people to care about something you've just presented to them. That was one of the problems with Icons, "Here's this thing! Defend it!"
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  • OrklanishkalOrklanishkal Member Posts: 120 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2012
    Icons need to be better roleplayed, I wish there had been events to introduce the concept or even to introduce singular Icons. There could still be events to explain their significance I think. 

    Edit: sorry for derail
    MannimarAbdas
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Blujixapug: I just want to say thank you for treating this discussion seriously. You have educated myself quite a bit on some of the more practical considerations to be considered. I really had no idea on holo's original purpose. I think that fundamentally, you and I are largely in agreement about what we would like to see in a system, were it to be implemented.

    I think most importantly, however, is the point made in your last post. I think that something important to consider would be tying into the existing Mhaldorian player base that is committed to forest conflict (in this case, the OIA), and make certain that what is being proposed is going to implemented. No matter what, we're talking about the introduction of a new mechanic, and there's always going to be the presentation problem, as you note. The only way it's going to fly is to get the OIA, Oakstone, Eleusis, and anyone else dedicated to mechanic in on the deal from the get-go. But, Eleusis is already committed to defending the forests. I think that the big question is going to be what Mhaldor is committed to defending. I think that this is probably where @Delphinus probably makes a good point: does Mhaldor have the numbers for a continent wide property battle where, gasp, Mhaldor could lose?

    If we go the red fog route, I think that the fog needs to be personified in some way. Because as it stands, as a Mhaldorian, the fog is just kind of there for me. I have no attachment to it. It's not something that I see as being in need of defense. It just "is". I'm willing to role play conflict for it, and get my butt kicked over it if need be, but I definitely would like to see a well-thought out rationale put into place that fits into Mhaldorian culture.

    Alright, so, I'm rambling, and I apologize. But, thanks again for approaching this seriously, Bluji.
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    Prythe
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nizaris said:
    I think most importantly, however, is the point made in your last post. I think that something important to consider would be tying into the existing Mhaldorian player base that is committed to forest conflict (in this case, the OIA), and make certain that what is being proposed is going to implemented. No matter what, we're talking about the introduction of a new mechanic, and there's always going to be the presentation problem, as you note. The only way it's going to fly is to get the OIA, Oakstone, Eleusis, and anyone else dedicated to mechanic in on the deal from the get-go. But, Eleusis is already committed to defending the forests. I think that the big question is going to be what Mhaldor is committed to defending. I think that this is probably where @Delphinus probably makes a good point: does Mhaldor have the numbers for a continent wide property battle where, gasp, Mhaldor could lose?

    I'd have to say the opposite. Having done the classlead thing before, stuff like this does not have a strong chance of going into the game, and an even weaker chance of going in in a state closely resembling an initial proposal (for whatever reason - maybe the idea flat-out sucks, or it won't work due to factors that weren't known, or it can't be coded efficiently or w/e). Anything I write up, I know it's unlikely that anything will come of it. Getting people "involved" and getting them excited about discussing and formulating a proposal is only likely to cause disappointment and frustration when either nothing happens as a result, or when it is changed considerably prior to implementation.

    Your point about Mhaldor's current numbers is a good one. But I think Mhaldor has always been a hardcore, underdog organisation, and this has been a large part of its appeal for the people who join. If they got a cool new conflict system that would probably serve to reignite that appeal. I also don't think you can design a system like this around too rigid an assumption of one side's strength/weakness or playerbase size, when a factor like that is so variable.
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    Lodi
  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2012
    @Blujixapug's point is one of the exact impasses that led me to believe, some time ago, that the system's just better off gone. As @Nizaris points out, Mhaldorian culture really has nothing of inherent and inalienable value -- no idealistic "top priority," let alone anything in a physical form. Necromancy is simply a tool, a weapon granted by Sartan, and that's the extent of its worth to Evil.

    So long as a Nature-style priority target exists, it will be used and abused as constant leverage. An attack on literal, pure ideology should rest -- as it does with Shallam and Ashtan, to great effect -- on the pillars of god-sustained events.

    (This thread is good background for the uninformed, but otherwise, it's kind of irrelevant. As @Aerek said, the planned solution needs to make it off the whiteboard before we can bring it to the message board.
    Lilley
  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    Game mechanics shouldn't be balanced by the current state of a faction. It would be like nerfing cata because only ashtan has enough magi for a cata and ashtan is op. If you don't have enough people or members of a neutral class, well sucks for you.

    If a new form of conflict were introduced for forestals, it certainly would not be balanced around mhaldor being small. That's something that you need to take care of in game.

    Also @Blujixapug totf was your idea iirc.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

    Delphinus
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Delphinus: I'd say that we have an idealistic top-priority (strength, and more specifically perfection in it). The problem is, that's not physical, and therefore cannot be attacked. Indeed, Mhaldorian theology would hold that attacks and even defeats only serve to strengthen us -- we're that metaphysical. Whereas, Eleusian top-priority is physical. It's able to be attacked.

    Ok. That makes sense. It's unfortunate, but Mhaldorian ideology doesn't really lend itself to reciprocal forest conflict.

    And now I'm having a minor identity crisis for Nizaris. Damn.
    image
    Lilley
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2012
    Tvistor said:
    Aerek is right, although he totally lost to Mark at CoH.

    Mark.
    @Tvistor I was playing with Greg!

    Greg!

    I suck, too. That might have something to do with it.
    Post edited by Aerek on
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,561 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tvistor: If you win, then lose, then that means yet another child added to your bloodline. 

    Trilliana
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