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Comments
Bit as you have shown, even the best case scenario is horrible.
A buff to dsb is so unnecessary. It's already really strong for all three Knight classes. It's just that the excess of three minute to prep can be tedious, and by that point you've had to evade kill atempts three or four times. It requires a certain mindset to play as a Runewarden currently, but that doesn't mean their ability to capitalize off disembowel or the attempt to is bad or in need of buffing. Tumble damage buff alone was gross.
Max health: 4260.
3626 to 2310. 12 str. (1316/4260 = 30.9%)
3610 to 2090. 14str. (1526/4260 = 35.8%)
2834 to 1110. 16str. (1724/4260 = 40.5%)
3468 to 1438. 19str. (2030/4260 = 47.7%)
If they have sensitivity at the time of tumbling out (and they always should 100% should if you're impaling off tumble), then that damage becomes:
12 strength = 41%.
14 strength = 46.5%.
16 strength = 53.8%.
19 strength = 63.4%.
That could stand to see a 10% increase across the board, imo.
Second I still don't see any of our famous top combatants using knight for more than a few days.
Longest prep, easiest to dodge. A reliable parry bypass is more than reasonable to give knight. And the 1.6 cap on frenzy solves basically all its issues. I'm not asking for the complete overhaul, I'm asking to be treated fairly compared to other classes and to change two things that you've all agreed in other posts would be good to have.
I want runewardens and paladins to have fun too and I'm tired of infernal being kinda broken with ping battle vivisects. Everything I'm suggesting doesn't even help me as infernal. I'm asking for a small nerf and a little love for my other knight Bros. We could at least try it and if it is crazy bad we can just change it back. What's the harm in just trying it out?
However while waiting for knight changes, I would suggest trying cleave and learning all the neat tricks you can do with it.
Because in my 7ish months of playing knight.. Cleave was the best method for killing on most targets.
The tumble change added a small amount of damage to the tumble, but still isn't remotely comparable to the damage of an actual DSB. The folks that were dying to tumble-off and subsequent damage still are, and the high-health targets that weren't dying to it still aren't. Personally I don't mind this because I've always felt Tumble was the logical and intended counter to DSB. What chaps me is the folks that don't tumble at all, and smile at you from the ground as they count and cure torso before anything else, or because they just have enough health to eat it. I've only got 4600, low by top-tier standards, and even after the algiz change I've eaten Kenway's 18-STR torso+DSBs and stood up.
Perhaps buying strength gauntlets would solve this problem, but without them the only option is pre-damage, which is reasonable in a vacuum, but gets unreasonable in context. An 18-STR DSB does 84%, but because of the length of the impale, you'll get at least one free sip and moss before the big hit, so I need you at about 60% before I start my break chain. I don't let Kenway get me to 60%, and Twil never let me get him to 60%, because they know at full health they'll be okay. DSB effectiveness falls off increasingly the higher up the health spectrum you go, because the longer you have to work up that pre-damage, that 3-minute timer is still ticking. You could get someone 100% prepped and lose it because you get bogged down trying to get the pre-damage in place.
I don't ignore advice from the other side. I try all the suggestions I read here on the forums, but what's stated here as fact usually relies on the opponent being ignorant or using sub-par priorities. The only folks I see excelling at knight are those who, no offense, are also banking on runed Soulpiercers, or Mizik/Kadin's 250+/250+ speed weapons. I can't remember the last time a Knight actually killed me with DSB, and I don't see people I respect dying to them either. Further, a lot of people I respect have been abandoning knight classes for a while. A mass exodus of combat-savvy players does not coincide with a class being "fine".
If I'm ignorant, educate me. If it's some big secret, PM me. If someone went knight today and started kicking my ass with DSBs, I'd watch, I'd learn, and you'd never hear me complaining about it again, but no one has in the last year or so. Until that happens, I feel DSB proof, and I fight good opponents who I feel are also DSB proof, so I can't help but feel there's a disconnect somewhere.
Edit: Not scared of Jhui as a knight, but scared of Jhui in all other forms.
Riddle me this. Would you think Jhui as Knight is scarier to fight than Jhui as Monk? Or Mizik as Knight scarier than Mizik as BM? Also, good weapons should be there to make you better or make your life easier, not be required to make you viable.
Runewarden has tools that make limb prep very doable. (Even if you have slow weapons) If you haven't figured that out, that's on you as a player and not the class itself. I showed @Kadin this morning, for instance, how to get around it.
You don't need OH MY GOD fast rapiers to get around parry. I did it with a set of 227's on a target KNOWING I was trying to get around it.
The ONLY issue that I currently have is with the finisher options, and most SLC (Self Limb Counters) these days. If someone is able to automatically cure a torso break immediately when it happens, this vastly limits Knight's disembowel ability, as it's no longer a torso break DSB, but rather a basic Disembowel.
This wouldn't be an issue if things worked as Achaea designed, for torso to be a silent break -- but with the advent of modern SLC coding, its no longer 'silent', and completely is negated by skillful coding.
The only counter to this is by advancing burst damage to a point where it offsets the damage addition, but that's telegraphed with a 10 second long chain of pre-sketches that is very easily avoided at the mid and upper tier combatant levels.
Prep time and all that's associated with Knight is part of the cat and mouse game you must play, as the class is built around it.
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."
-Albert Einstein
We could probably sell tickets.
Knight is one of my most brutal classes. Blademaster doesn't have the pressure that Runewarden has, it just suddenly kill you to a tertiary damage (bleed vs health/afflictions).
Runewarden hurts, hurts, hurts then explodes you to Disembowel or runes. It is THE go to pressure class. Teams? Totems, smudging, runes.
Paladin is an inescapable nightmare of fighting at 0 mana while taking massive doubleslash damage, burst Purity/Arc damage, and parrying legs vs head because either means death by Disembowel/Damnation. Defensively, Peace, Force, Arc eliminate timed instant kills (aka Jesters), Healing/Fitness nullify afflictions, and Battlecry/Piety + Tumble eliminates an opponent's offense after a double break takedown - which is pointless anyway because Fullplate + Tower + Toughness + Revitalization is God. Teams? Resurrection, Deliverance, Hands, allied Rites holy shit.
Infernals have Frenzy for bursts, Taint/Arc for more burst, Vivisect/Disembowel for parry dispute, Battlecry/Gravehands/Vigour for prone defense, but who cares, because Fullplate + Tower + Vigour + 20% Putrefaction exists for some reason. Timed instant kills? Arc/Screech. Teams? Infiltration, most comboable insta kill in Vivisect, Transverse.
There are those who complain, and there are those who dominate. Not everything needs to be a re-written hardcode change. When given a problem, create a solution. That is the difference between the Tiracs, Jhuis, Tynils, Carmains, Miziks.
If I were to start up a thread like this during the stints where I am Runewarden, I'd have been laughed out of the game. Nothing has changed with Knights being Achaea's cookie cutters. I wish there were anyone here who has seen me play Paladin - it is the most powerful class I have ever played.
Now watch Jhui have his turn as Runewarden.
That said, bring back Paladin Spire, we only hear about it but all I saw was Spire getting destroyed by Nemutaur 3 times in 10 minutes.
None of what you said addresses the main point in this thread - that Knight prep takes far too long with the proper parry/defensive measures taken, and that disembowel is ineffective in a lot of situations.
The only real issue with Paladin right now is the availability of top tier rapiers. @Tecton @Makarios Buff Soulpiercer speed please, no reason a 3200 credit investment is still so damn slow.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Solving the problem for every Knight is a project that we all know is in the works, but it's not as simple as just rearranging the stat placement on artefact rapiers. This can be done right now.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
No points buffing Soulpiercers, since these changes already looking pretty solid. Wouldn't say they're too far off being implemented on live if they're smoothened out. (double flail is insane damage for bashing, with solid speeds)
That said, Soulpiercers should be buffed for Bards anyway to make them an attractive option, and they'll look remarkably similar to the level three stats duality knights will be getting. Just do it now, rather than when the Knight changes are actually released, is what I'm saying.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Don't forget offer your suggestions from your experiences.