Bounties for Writs

Austere

Man forget that.  If I am near a shrine that was defiled,  please God attack me.  I guarantee I deserve it.  I promise not to count cause,  unless you stay whining that I can't attack you too. Hello common sense. 

Aktillum

I would say it appears the admins current feelings is that Orders have a certain inalienable right to enact "justice" on defilers through the witness command, provided they get there in time, and that PKcause > RP when it comes to shrine conflict. I'm sure their line of thinking is that it prevents abuse from loldefilers who just want to kill witnessers, but I think a majority of people (and I could be wrong) agree that going to witness is asking for a fight. You should be prepared to physically defend your shrines, or not witness and just let the shrine drop.

With these rulings, a witnesser can say "Neener neener, I haven't attacked you yet *starts counting causes*". Which is what we've been trying to move past in todays PvP atmosphere, but things like this sorta hold us back.

Austere

Both rulings are silly. If I am defiling, you know where I am and you know I want to fight.  If you show up,  I know you care about your divine enough to risk your life.  Why are people issuing over this petty junk? Just kill each other. 

Carmell

When you have someone like Proficy, Hirst, Jhui who will defile just to start a fight and the person that goes to witness isn't able to even have a chance of beating them then the witness gives us a way of at least looking for justice later.  Or let's say you attack a shrine and 2 of us come to shrine and attack you then you go back to your city and bring back 3 more.  Yes this happens all the time.   At that point it's become circular and no fun for the witnesser.

Caladbolg

Jacen said:

Probably not the right place for this, but why aren't writs pooled for the Order? Like say I witness Rangor, then the next time any Order member kills Rangor, the writ would be used up? Doesn't really make sense that you can go into a group fight with writs, and theoretically come out with just as many writs as you had going in, while still killing the whole group (if no one personally kills a person they have a writ for)

Might've been answered already as im not reading four pages of this, but. Because take Twilight for example, I seriously doubt anyone in twilight's order is a combatant. which would make someone in twilights order killing say for instance me low with out a group. and if your forced into group combating one person just to complete a contract ... yeah.

Not all orders are equal.

Jacen

Caladbolg said:

Jacen said:

Probably not the right place for this, but why aren't writs pooled for the Order? Like say I witness Rangor, then the next time any Order member kills Rangor, the writ would be used up? Doesn't really make sense that you can go into a group fight with writs, and theoretically come out with just as many writs as you had going in, while still killing the whole group (if no one personally kills a person they have a writ for)

Might've been answered already as im not reading four pages of this, but. Because take Twilight for example, I seriously doubt anyone in twilight's order is a combatant. which would make someone in twilights order killing say for instance me low with out a group. and if your forced into group combating one person just to complete a contract ... yeah.

Not all orders are equal.

I think Eleusis would disagree with you

Bluef

People are constantly complaining that 1v1 is dead in Achaea. Defiling (under the current system, per the issue responses shared here and elsewhere) is something that actually encourages it though. You go, you witness, you have the right to practice your PK to your heart's desire for 75 hours on a person. Be happy. Rejoice. It doesn't require an entire city to kill a loan defiler. Defiling doesn't merit 10,000 ganks by a death squad. If you don't feel you can kill the defiler, you can yield the writ - or you can bring the entire city. Just make sure they know they all might be hired on for not being directly tied to the shrine conflict through order affiliation and witnessing. It's not that big a deal. Is it?

Ulrike

^ she mad

Silas

Why are you issuing yourself? I literally just told you how shrine conflict works. Who cares what the admins say? If they want to maintain wussy stances, they can deal with more wussy issues. Not my problem.

Jacen

Until you get issued and lose, sure.

Silas

If I get issued and lose I'll just come to the forums and ridicule Anytus, as is proper.

Tharvis

Silas said:

If I get issued and lose I'll just come to the forums and ridicule Anytus, as is proper.

What if it's Meletus or Makarios that handled it?

Silas

Nobody would be suicidal enough to ridicule the Almighty Deletus.

Taraza

Delete shrines. Sacrifice rituals to your Divine instead. 

Atalkez

Carmell said:

When you have someone like Proficy, Hirst, Jhui who will defile just to start a fight and the person that goes to witness isn't able to even have a chance of beating them then the witness gives us a way of at least looking for justice later.  Or let's say you attack a shrine and 2 of us come to shrine and attack you then you go back to your city and bring back 3 more.  Yes this happens all the time.   At that point it's become circular and no fun for the witnesser.

If people are defiling too much don't put up so many shrines. You have the biggest shrine network IG (two divine is irrelevant) and you should expect to deal with it. 

If you had one shrine of each divine outside of city, you wouldn't get defiled near as often.

Nim

Jacen said:

The issue response to me was that unless you held a writ yourself, it is a hirable offense to attack/kill a defiler, though you likely wouldn't lose an issue over it unless they weren't actually defiling (ie. saw them at the shrine, attacked, but they were just passing thru)

What's a "hirable offense"? I thought PK rules were "do you have a good reason? Then go for it!" Why do writs still exist?

Halios

Nim said:

Jacen said:

The issue response to me was that unless you held a writ yourself, it is a hirable offense to attack/kill a defiler, though you likely wouldn't lose an issue over it unless they weren't actually defiling (ie. saw them at the shrine, attacked, but they were just passing thru)

What's a "hirable offense"? I thought PK rules were "do you have a good reason? Then go for it!" Why do writs still exist?

Because having probable cause via RP to attack someone doesn't mean it's 'free pk.'

Probable cause/roleplay reason just allows you to attack them without getting issued.

'free pk' only exists in Annwyn/Treacherous/etc.

'open pk' are people like marks/infamous who can be attacked at any time and can't issue, but can't kill you in return for the initial aggressive action.

Caladbolg

Jacen said:

Caladbolg said:

Jacen said:

Probably not the right place for this, but why aren't writs pooled for the Order? Like say I witness Rangor, then the next time any Order member kills Rangor, the writ would be used up? Doesn't really make sense that you can go into a group fight with writs, and theoretically come out with just as many writs as you had going in, while still killing the whole group (if no one personally kills a person they have a writ for)

Might've been answered already as im not reading four pages of this, but. Because take Twilight for example, I seriously doubt anyone in twilight's order is a combatant. which would make someone in twilights order killing say for instance me low with out a group. and if your forced into group combating one person just to complete a contract ... yeah.

Not all orders are equal.

I think Eleusis would disagree with you

If Twilights order had combatants wouldn't they have shrines outside of Hashan sewers? >_> Just sayin.

Silas said:

If I get issued and lose I'll just come to the forums and ridicule Anytus, as is proper.

I would have to log in to get issued.

Fixed for you!!

Halios said:

Nim said:

Jacen said:

The issue response to me was that unless you held a writ yourself, it is a hirable offense to attack/kill a defiler, though you likely wouldn't lose an issue over it unless they weren't actually defiling (ie. saw them at the shrine, attacked, but they were just passing thru)

What's a "hirable offense"? I thought PK rules were "do you have a good reason? Then go for it!" Why do writs still exist?

Because having probable cause via RP to attack someone doesn't mean it's 'free pk.'

Probable cause/roleplay reason just allows you to attack them without getting issued.

'free pk' only exists in Annwyn/Treacherous/etc.

'open pk' are people like marks/infamous who can be attacked at any time and can't issue, but can't kill you in return for the initial aggressive action.

----
Stuck in this stupid box
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Marks have every right to normal attacking except they cannot hire and cannot issue, if someone attacks you and you get away you have every right to go and attack them back for it.

Same as if you die you still have every right to go back and fight them again for it.

At least that's how the old rules worked, Only like 1-3 people that i've ever seen in this game would actually attack you then hire/issue if you took your revenge later.

Payne

The way I understand the new pk rules is that if you have a RP justification to attack someone then you can attack them. To me this says that if someone is attacking Lord Twilights shrines than because he is the Patron of Hashan I can help defend his order's shrines within a reasonable time frame to the actual event in this case defiling. Now I may be wrong but I don't see how within an RP game it can be any other way. Now as far as defiling when there is no combatants around to defend the shrine or see it taking place thats fine to but I think like guards for a city it should be logged so the order can atleast know there enemies. Now one thing I think should merit an issue is killing a defiler over and over for just defiling once is worth getting in trouble over use common sense. I would just kill once send them to the Lord Thoth's house for abit and if they come back and defile repeat the process. If the defiler kills you say hi to Lord Thoth return home lick your wounds and hope he comes back for more or don't hope. Also if you come with a defiling party you should know your seen as a defilers defender and may be attacked due to the RP of the event at hand. I think it hinders RP to not be able to defend something your associated with in this case Lord Twilight because you did not see the actual defiling or not an order member wich hurts the RP enviroment. Defiling is aggression towards a deity and the order and should be taken as such so if your doing it  or helping it you should be ready to get aggression in return even if your non-com. If your non-com you shouldn't be participating in things combat. I say keep writs for non-com order members and allow them to hire Marks. Allow RP to flourish through shrine conflict and hopefully build more conflict that builds more RP.

Tibitha

TIL about PK rules. I just assumed that the moment I joined things like raids and defiling it was kind of open pk between me and them.

So this suggestion comes with that disclaimer. And I've probably missed some subtlety.

What about having the Order Infamy suggested earlier but you only get infamy if you're witnessed.

Witnessing only requires the Order member to enter the room of the defiled shrine within x time of the defile, at which point all defiles that happened within the last x sec/min are logged automatically and Order Infamy is awarded.

Witnessing has a cooldown per person per shrine though. So you can witness anyone who's defiled in the last 30 seconds for example but you can't rewitness that person on that shrine for 10min or whatever.

Witnesses are fully open to pk by defilers when walking into the room though. 

Surely that simplifies the actual mechanics of it a little?

Klendathu

Not everyone wants to engage in combat, even if they're in an order whose shrines are being defiled. If they know they have no chance of defeating the defiler(s), why would they attack them and potentially allow their corpse to be used to further defile? Having witnesses not automatically be open to attack means that these people can still "defend" their shrines by gathering a writ.

This is all fine and dandy until some smart-alec witnesses, gathering a writ, and then attacks as well.

Jacen

Klendathu said:

Not everyone wants to engage in combat, even if they're in an order whose shrines are being defiled. If they know they have no chance of defeating the defiler(s), why would they attack them and potentially allow their corpse to be used to further defile? Having witnesses not automatically be open to attack means that these people can still "defend" their shrines by gathering a writ.

This is all fine and dandy until some smart-alec witnesses, gathering a writ, and then attacks as well.

This is actually the proper way to do it, according to the admin. You're not supposed to attack a defiler without a writ.

Halos

Atalkez said:

Carmell said:

When you have someone like Proficy, Hirst, Jhui who will defile just to start a fight and the person that goes to witness isn't able to even have a chance of beating them then the witness gives us a way of at least looking for justice later.  Or let's say you attack a shrine and 2 of us come to shrine and attack you then you go back to your city and bring back 3 more.  Yes this happens all the time.   At that point it's become circular and no fun for the witnesser.

You have the biggest shrine network IG 

coughpandoracough

Ernam

Jacen said:

Klendathu said:

Not everyone wants to engage in combat, even if they're in an order whose shrines are being defiled. If they know they have no chance of defeating the defiler(s), why would they attack them and potentially allow their corpse to be used to further defile? Having witnesses not automatically be open to attack means that these people can still "defend" their shrines by gathering a writ.

This is all fine and dandy until some smart-alec witnesses, gathering a writ, and then attacks as well.

This is actually the proper way to do it, according to the admin. You're not supposed to attack a defiler without a writ.

I've heard the exact opposite of this countless times.  In fact, attacking defilers (without writs) is the roleplay justification for a massive portion of conflict in the game, which (or so I've been told) has been repeatedly stated in admin judgements on issues regarding this.

It used to be like that, but as hasn't been so since the new PK rules.

Jacen

well, the response to my issue me is that if you don't have a writ, its perfectly legit for a defiler to hire a mark on you for attacking, no matter what. This was when Bluef defiled the Twilight shrine and hired on me, so it was well after the new PK rules came out.

Ernam

Not even going to begin to contemplate what is considered "OK" for hiring marks, now.  Hiring marks is supposed to be "equal" to attacking someone yourself, but it seems that that is in no way the case anymore.

I've also heard god knows how many people bitching about "hiring over shrine conflict", so even if it is legit in the eyes of one or more of the admins, it's going to get you taunted and probably forum trolled.

Jacen

Message #5          Sent by Meletus

9/14/21:14 Greetings! In regard to issue 70046, it would be permissible to essentially allow chasing of a confirmed individual for defiling, but for very little time - you wouldn't be allowed to go jump someone you didn't get a writ on 30 minutes later for that shrine defilement, but if done within a minute or so of the shrine dropping, that's enough RP reason to do so. Anything further out than that would require a writ! You're also, obviously, held entirely accountable for being positive that individual actually defiled, as 'I saw them on a who list' or something similar would not at all be enough reason if you end up being mistaken!

Message #6          Sent by Meletus

9/14/21:33 Greetings! In regard to issue 70053, they are allowed to contract out on you if you do not receive an official writ! For the earlier issue response, that was more along the lines of whether or not it'd be specifically against the rules and if you'd lose an issue for such an attack. However, so long as the writs system exists, one will be required, otherwise the other individual would be well within their rights to hire a Mark.