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Comments
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Like the D&D player who decides that his RP is to backstab people for gold, and god knows, 'sorry party member, I have to backstab you. I don't care if the whole party hates me, not being an asshole would undermine my RP'.
Help common sense and roleplay consistency should always take precedence before your dumb technicalities and cause counting.
To be clear: I'm saying the system will need to be changed if you want things to go your way. Until them, be responsible adults, and play by the rules of the game instead of making excuses for your behavior.
Just a couple nights ago I was defiling Twilight shrines with Rangor, Ryuke and Darkender, when Andraste came and witnessed Ryuke, then dropped vibes against the whole group. He never actually saw me defiling, and I didn't attack him because I don't really believe in 4v1, technically I could claim cause on him for his vibes hitting me (ignoring the fact he's Quisalis and already open PK). But I'm not gonna do that because whether or not he actually saw me defiling, I was with a defiling group so he had probable cause to enemy me for his vibes.
Not everyone operates like that. A cause-counter could easily say he never witnessed me defiling, and I don't mean the WITNESS command, I mean literally the only reason he knew to enemy me for vibes was because I was standing there. For all he knows I could've just been watching the other defilers. But I was clearly guilty by association.
So while I don't operate through "you didn't see me so you can't attack me" cause-counting, other people do, and they're within their legal right in Achaea to do so because the writ system exists, which is what this thread should be about changing. Gotta change the system through the system etc etc.
Needing excuses for the behaviour of attacking defilers implies that the behaviour is wrong. Labeling it as playing like a responsible adult is a leading, disingenuous statement. You either agree that a person who defiles should only be attacked as they defile, or you believe that they should be held to a reasonable amount of accountability following the defile should defenders be unable to counter in that instance. Which is it? Don't hide behind dumb PK Rulings and Mechanical technicalities to facilitate cause counting. It's a backslide.
To better articulate why this kind of behaviour frustrates me - it's condoning the current system to say that "we should just all follow rules and play like responsible adults". Let's acknowledge that the system is bad, and that the way a lot of people enact it is bad, and that we need to look for a way to change it.
Removing writs altogether and creating an "Order Infamy" is a great way to go about it, I think. It's a fairly easy solution, too.
1: Make defiling give infamy
2: Make defiling just auto-log writs, like how killing city guards just writes "Aktillum has slain a guard loyal to your city" in the logs.
3: Screw writs altogether and just attack anyone at the scene of the crime.
+ Assisting defilement of shrine. (+1 points)
+ Building a new shrine on top of a recently defiled shrine via sanctifying. (+2 points)
Things that reduce points.
- Deaths (-.5 point per death).
- Time. (-1 point per six rl days - or half an in-game year)
There would be five levels of Order Infamy. The purpose of these are to lower the reduction in the amount of points that death and time remove from Order Infamy, and also to give the person cool titles and perks that are yet to be decided.
First level: One point to reach. All point levels remain the same.
Second level: Two points to reach (+1 from previous level). All point levels remain the same.
Third level: Four points to reach (+2 from previous level). Death reduction remains the same. Time now takes 12 rl days to reduce by 1 point.
Fourth level: Sixteen points to reach (+8 from previous level). Death reduction now -5 every 2 deaths. Time remains 1 point per 12 rl days.
Fifth level: Twenty-eight points to reach (+12 from previous level). Only time reduces this level of Infamy. 1 point per 12 rl days.
I would give Order members the ability to reduce infamy points. This allows the use of fines and rp interactions to reduce infamy level to an Order.
On the flip side, something I would introduce are perks to increasing levels of Order Infamy. I'm not sure exactly what, but just things like increased health regen, or slightly increased stats or max health levels near shrines to which you have a high Order infamy level. Like, at level five you could have +2 to con/int/str/dex, level three health regen, etc. There is a lot of room for ideas regarding these perks, so please give your input!
Still a very rough draft
However, the rest of the suggestion has merits. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Oh, additionally ETA: My reasoning for shrinenet in the area is to force the defilers to actually stay in the area for a period of time unless they want to / don't care about acquiring points for increased OI (Order Infamy) levels. This would let the defenders enter the area and seek out potential defilers. A fun game of cat & mouse.. We could also keep the WITNESS command to work the same as entering/leaving shrinenet (causing temporary points to become permanent), but please for the love of god make it cause the witnesser to become open pk to the defilers. Then reduce or remove the eq/balance cost of witnessing. Necessary adjustments regardless of whatever happens to a shrine rework.
ETA2: I strongly suggest the perks idea for OI levels too. This provides an incentive for defilers to actually be caught defiling, instead of just defile/running, defile/running.
I prefer we just get rid of anonymity in defilement for simplicity, but should a good argument be made for retaining it then there are potentially interesting work arounds
Beseech @Tecton for Shrinenet
JOVOLO HAS ENTERED SHRINE LOCATION "SOME WATERFALL ROOM"
If you don't reach the shrine in time, or if the person gets away when you attack them after the shrine falls and you didn't get a writ, then you lost. You can then choose to retaliate by defiling, raiding, etc., to put pressure on the person who dares to defile your patron's shrines, but that particular action is over.
ETA: For defilers, it's even easier. You turn up, you defile, you kill Order members who show up (because why the fuck are you showing up to defend your patron's shrines if you're unwilling to put your life on the line for them), and then you move on. Be prepared to die in the immediate conflict, and again for each writ you allowed the Order to collect on you.
Really not difficult to follow for either side, and doesn't need anything as silly as PK rules and issues.
1) This is a game, which means that there are periods where an Order won't have any members logged on. I don't think that should be a free pass to defiling without consequences.
2) Shrine defiling is currently the only method of overt organizational conflict that hides the name of the aggressor. Killing city, House (and presumably Order?) denizens write your name to logs, as does killing guards and declaring sanctioned raids. You could argue that organizational theft is hidden, but that's something that requires opportunity, and happens much less often.
3) If the defilers wall up the area, and you now support defilers attacking defenders on sight (which means propped totems, vibes, rites, etc up while defiling) then you're gonna see a lot of ranged happening. Problem here is that it gets easier to mistake who is actually defiling. I don't think its unreasonable to assume everyone in the room is defiling, but chameleon tattoo throws it off if all you have is thirdeye to check.
4) I don't necessarily think you shouldn't be able to chase the defilers without a writ for a short time. I you're sure they were defiling, it really doesn't make sense to say "Damn, they walked one room away, can't fight them now." After 15/20 minutes or so, if you haven't killed the defilers by then, its time to let it go, if you don't have a writ.
Basically it'd be great if Help Writs was updated to reflect that RP triumphs PK cause. Don't go to witness shrines if you don't want to get involved in PvP conflict and then use "I was only witnessing, not attacking anyone".
Lets see what happens.
I'll take a page from Florentino and ask why you'd want to shut down such RP avenues? A young Targssosian serpent too shiny and new to aid in combat, who just wants to do their part in fighting evil so he/she defiles once and then phases/evades away. A Cyrenian bard (figurative, not the class) with no combat experience who has been inspired by a recent poem he wrote on the corruption of Oblivion to do a small amount of defiling.
By the standards I'm seeing proposed here, every single person who defiles could get hammered hard for the action via PK. I'm not sure I see the need for that. The mechanics of shrines make them fairly easy to erect and sanctify. Sure it's a bit boresome to have to hunt up corpses to re-sancitfy, but isn't offering to one's divine an expected duty of RPing allegiance?
If you want to toss in the argument that defending to earnestly is a RP-thing, then couldn't it also be argued that there may be much more RP-value in actually roleplaying something out with the aforementioned Targossian and Cyrenian rather than launching into PK directly? Writs do allow Orders the chance to do that already, but I think it's rarely done.
I personally like what @Jovolo is proposing here, but there are some Orders that are widely noncom. How would Order Infamy allow them to seek vengeance?
A quick follow-up to this: Certain Orders and their establishment of shrines in areas every few rooms (inside and outside of cities) means they can essentially control those areas any time they choose to do so. For some divine this kind of land grab may make sense, but I'm wondering if anyone knows if this was one of the purposes for which shrines were originally devised? I'm really speaking more to those with shrines one atop another outside cities, which it makes a little less sense unless there is a roleplayed alliance to a region (such as Mhaldor and Enverren, for example).
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
IE: City bounties for having been spotted there.
I'm seeing quite a lot of interesting suggestions, but I'm starting to see where the problem most likely rests: at your perceived entitled rights.
The problems I see have already been mentioned in the thread so I won't repeat verbatim, however, having a group of 10 people drop a shrine in seconds, or people defiling a few corpses at a time just to see who shows up to fight them are certainly things to address. I feel this could be more a player run change though, rather than a game mechanic
Also, killing denizens is noted in org logs, but that's for enemy records more than it is for gaining retribution. Plus, what are you going to do, 'witness guard' and gain a writ? I have no overriding objection to names being added to the Order logs, since I thrive on attention and want everyone to know everything I do, but the current system of required player vigilance is preferable to me because making it a game mechanic takes away the possibility of errors being made, and diminishes interaction between players. If you want to gain the right to kill someone for defiling your shrines, you should be expected go out and earn it.
In the same vein, if you're tagging along on a defiling run, you're putting yourself in the line of fire, and should expect to be killed when people come out swinging. It's just obnoxious to scream that you didn't actually type out the defile command so you can't be killed.
But yeah, I meant that people have to actually get away - i.e., to run back to a safe place so that the Order members can't kick their teeth in. If the Order members didn't get a writ, that's on them. If you have 40 shrines, losing one where you can't kill someone for it because you failed to kill them right then is not a bad thing - if anything it forces you to deal with your loss and strive to do better next time. That's a good thing.
I don't like Order Infamy because it sounds clumsy as fuck and puts the onus of vigilance onto the game mechanics rather than on the players who commit their characters in service to a god. It's just another way for people to refuse to lose.
ETA:
Taunting an Order and trying to draw them out by defiling once or twice is kind of obnoxious, but it's very easy for the Order to ignore it if they don't feel like pandering to Proficy today.
The addition of the bounty system.means that org logs -can- be used for retribution. Thats kinda the whole purpose of it.
ETA: And yes, org logs can be used for retribution via bounties now, sure, but that's because there's no witness command for cities whose denizens are killed. Plus, denizens are living, breathing, text-people, whose deaths should be reason for their city to go out and seek vengeance. Shrines are something Orders can place anywhere in the world to act as a symbol of their god, and are something the order must sally forth to defend. Overextension should remain part of shrine conflict, or we'll just have more ridiculous Orders like Indrani's with shrines everywhere because nobody can be arsed to find their 5000 shrines.
Pretty much as cheap as deserting the city, and then ganking the raiders one by one over the following week.
People seem to believe that they have an inalienable right to kill someone for anything they do against them, which I find just as absurd as the people who believe they cannot be killed for anything they do. There should be give and take for both sides, because it's boring if one side will always be able to chalk up a win in every conflict because a note in the Order logs, or in somebody's honours or whatever, says they can kill somebody for defiling now.
@Carmain @Silas prepare for the RIP of shrine conflict...
issue me A follow-up to issue 70106: Based on that issue clarification, only the witnesser has rights to attack the defiler first. However, does the actual command WITNESS need to be performed before attacking? It is not uncommon for orgs thematically loyal to a deity (Mhaldor, Targossas) to bring a truckload of people to a shrine fight, even those who are not in the Order. Based on the "rules", am I correct in assuming that ONLY the witnesser has PK rights on the shrine defiler?