EQ Gem/Staff of Nicator.

Jacen

Halios said:

Balancing a class around the average fighter is ridiculous.

Classes should be balanced around -potential-, not application.

See: The rants about Priest needing buffs, when it's very clear that priest is incredibly strong in the right hands.

If you buff classes that the masses feel are weak simply because of a high skill-cap, or nerf those with a low skill-cap, you're coddling people who don't want to take the time to optimize their class/abilities and combat awareness, and it will hurt the game at the top tier.

The problem is that reaching a classes full potential can require thousands of credits, and the fighters that hold all the potentially useful artefacts with respect to that class might only represent a small portion of the active PKers of that class. Ex: Jhui should not be incredibly OP, but it would be ridiculous to balance monk around a Staff holder, because the rest of the monks would get screwed. 

Its also not nearly as simple as saying that "Monk's skill potential is X, let's balance around that." PKers are always finding new tricks, artefact combinations, etc that affects the way classes are played. Especially given that every classleads round brings significant changes to most classes. 

Bukariin

I don't think Halios is suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential with one-of-a-kind Relics.  I think he's suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential as tri-trans, utilizing proper traits, level in the mid to high nineties, and maybe a few common arties (not thousands of dollars' worth) to boot, with a functional modern curing system.

Halios

Bukariin said:

I don't think Halios is suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential with one-of-a-kind Relics.  I think he's suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential as tri-trans, utilizing proper traits, level in the mid to high nineties, and maybe a few common arties (not thousands of dollars' worth) to boot, with a functional modern curing system.

.

I just balk at the idea that because someone finds a way to combine tactics, rare items, relics, teamwork, and artefacts, that somehow a -class- needs to be changed.

I don't think anything -needs- to be changed in that case, personally.

I think there may need to be some tweaking that prevents killing your allied citymate for a relic.

Making the RNG of who actually lands the killing blow on the honours mob more important might be more effective, or just binding the relic to the person who picks it up for a period of time.

Don't make the relics just sit on a person until they die. Make them tied to the person who killed the denizen in the first place and/or for a set amount of time.

This way, the playing field for OBTAINING the relics in the first place becomes more even because they would cycle more consistently, and having one would make it less likely that you're going to gather them all, unless you just take a 20 person group around sapience gathering them all every time they repop. It would also promote more objectively fair combat because people would skirmish eachother as they form groups to try to take down the denizens, instead of the snowball effect we currently have.

This way you would get a tangible bonus, that would be more moderated in terms of its effect on the overall health of the conflict(s).

Additionally, perhaps the relics could be "charged" and lose potency over time. Maybe the EQ gem starts off at 100% potency and 'decays' as it is used, resulting eventually in a husk that disappears etc.

I'm just trying to think of ways to make relics less snowball-y than they currently are, because I don't think the problem is the fact that people -can- be that strong, it's the fact that it can be sustained for so long, and having one of them makes getting the others that much easier, due to groups who would try to stop you from killing the other honours mobs finding it a worthless endeavor because of your already-enhanced abilities.

Also I don't think Lifegiver is a healthy item for the game, given the power of the other relics, and the nature of earrings/lust/etc.

Bukariin

And I'll probably keep saying it until my fingers fall off, but the combination of artefacts and relics that made Jhui so powerful would also make any halfway-competent Alchemist, Occultist, Apostate, or Shaman (yes even Shaman) insanely so.

Florentino

I don't think so, Bukariin - monk has several abilities/combos that are near-unique in strength or ease of application. For instance, almost all of kaido/telepathy can be used while transfixed (and paralyzed too, I think?)...it isn't until you've seen monks earring onto a partner, hit a totem, and near-instantly choke an ally out until you understand their uniquely devastating potential.

Halios

Florentino said:

I don't think so, Bukariin - monk has several abilities/combos that are near-unique in strength or ease of application. For instance, almost all of kaido/telepathy can be used while transfixed (and paralyzed too, I think?)...it isn't until you've seen monks earring onto a partner, hit a totem, and near-instantly choke an ally out until you understand their uniquely devastating potential.

One thing I've learned about game balance is that if you phrase it correctly, any class can seem OP in a vacuum.

Every class has ridiculous capabilities that you could say are "unique."

That, to me, is good game balance. It's like how they balanced starcraft: broodwar to make it recognized as one of the most fun and balanced games ever to be played competitively.

Instead of making abilities and units that mimic eachother in capability in all senses, they made units that all have their own "OP" nature, but who all have counters and abilities that are equally strong in other ways on the opposite side.

It makes for a much more dynamic experience when the game plays like that, and that's why I resist when people complain about one class in a vacuum in some capability or other.

Cooper

Monk, even with the 50 hard nerfs it has had in the last 10 years, is still extremely overpowered in a group setting with or without artefacts.

Hod

Cooper said:

Monk, even with the 50 hard nerfs it has had in the last 10 years, is still extremely overpowered in a group setting with or without artefacts.

I personally think it's because they have easily the strongest skill set. High melee damage, high damage mitigation, high LoS damage, and on top of that some of the strongest abilities in the game period (radiance, deliverance, mind throw, mind command/strip, enfeeble, pretty much all of telepathy really).

Cooper

Thank you for your great insight that none of the rest of us had.

Hod

Cooper said:

Thank you for your great insight that none of the rest of us had.

Do you have to be such a fucking jerk? I come here just to talk shop and I gotta deal with this hateful vitriol.

Iuneos

The thing is that you can pick and choose with monk.  Tekura monks lose out on powerful chokes and quick telepathy, and kaido monks lose out on high-damage combos and it takes more than two bbt's to kill someone. It's not that overpowered in 1v1, and tekura monks aren't overpowered in group.  The 'issue' you guys are seeing is people specifically set up FOR group combat support roles.  Yes, it can be annoying but it's not game-breaking because anyone can do it with the same amount of investment that Jhui has put into the game. People are just too lazy to learn how to do it or don't want to spend the money. 

Iuneos

yeah and your avatar is dumb.

Cooper

Iuneos said:

The thing is that you can pick and choose with monk.  Tekura monks lose out on powerful chokes and quick telepathy, and kaido monks lose out on high-damage combos and it takes more than two bbt's to kill someone. It's not that overpowered in 1v1, and tekura monks aren't overpowered in group.  The 'issue' you guys are seeing is people specifically set up FOR group combat support roles.  Yes, it can be annoying but it's not game-breaking because anyone can do it with the same amount of investment that Jhui has put into the game. People are just too lazy to learn how to do it or don't want to spend the money. 

Part of that isn't true.

A monk setup for tekura in groups is extremely powerful too - kai enfeeble and kai cripple are both incredibly useful/overpowered abilities. Bbt is also an extremely damaging move in group fights.

Iuneos

Yes, but the same can be said for any other class in group combat.  They're average.  My statement was that they aren't overpowered, which is true.  

Hasar

@Hod far from a troll...maybe he felt like making bad assumptions or whatever, but no need to be a dick to him  - for 0 reason but to feed epeen? - and turn him away from the game. Hod fun to interact and work with IG, hope he doesn't start to play less because of forums. Just don't respond to or skim over his posts if they bother you. Easy as that.

Santar

Monk has had a lot of big buffs over the years, too. Not all nerfs.

Iuneos

I'm talking about tekura monks.  Especially now that axk isn't a thing any more, tekura monks are average in group combat.  I said that in my previous post.  

Xer

RIP the days of x3 axk

Mizik

Iuneos said:

I'm talking about tekura monks.  Especially now that axk isn't a thing any more, tekura monks are average in group combat.  I said that in my previous post.  

Man. You must think anyone who isn't monk is fking nuts!

Aelios

Mizik said:

Iuneos said:

I'm talking about tekura monks.  Especially now that axk isn't a thing any more, tekura monks are average in group combat.  I said that in my previous post.  

Man. You must think anyone who isn't monk is fking nuts!

It's true, I can't handle the OP'ness.

Aktillum

Hod said:

Cooper said:

Thank you for your great insight that none of the rest of us had.

Do you have to be such a fucking jerk? I come here just to talk shop and I gotta deal with this hateful vitriol. I came out to have a good time and I am honestly feeling so attacked right now

fix'd

Caladbolg

Let's nerf this!

Yes!

Goggo

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/bcc8eb94

So, where can i buy a Jhui to complete my contracts? 

Kinilan

Goggo said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/bcc8eb94

So, where can i buy a Jhui to complete my contracts? 

For sale in Ashtan, duh.

Cooper

We forgot to include the bard ability gigue (or whichever one it is) that speeds up EQ too. Jhui choked me 4 times in 4.1 seconds yesterday (according to svo timestamps, it might have been 4 chokes in 5 seconds total).

Fendrel

[Grimaldrin says: i know, i know.. Jhui is a Jerk, right? ]
Lmao