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EQ Gem/Staff of Nicator.

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  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm totally going against the grain here, but @Jhui is spot on with his posts. And I'm team blue, so it holds some weight.

    If you meta Achaea, and min/max EQ speed to the degree @Jhu has, while playing a class that is viciously strong when it comes to support utility -- you SHOULD be considered overpowered. 

    We can't fault the guy for winning Achaea. Hell, I *ALMOST* beat him in a duel (Lucky ass wake saved his petty little life :smiley: ) - so it CAN be done. You've just got to realize you're facing Goliath as David, and fight accordingly.

    Relics, in my personal opinion, are a neat 'perk' to Achaea, but how the system works rewards the already victorious. This setup creates a larger gap in the ability / skill void that exists, doing the exact opposite of the administrations intention. I believe changing it to effectively be 'bound' to the person who discovers it and not being transferable on death would make it a bit more entertaining, especially if the relics were pulled off of honors mobs and instead put on or in areas that are accessible by any level 70+ player, making it truly a game of speed and wits to capture. This would also give it a fair shake to players within cities that don't have 10 dragons willing to help grind out the death of one denizen for the relic.

    Keep on keeping on, @Jhui - I haven't put in the time or effort you have, and I can't expect to walk on an even playing field considering you've paved the road you walk entirely by known mechanics.


    Revise the Relic system itself, in its entirety, and we will see the issue likely fixed and not spoken of again.

    Keep it as it is, making them transferable on death, and we will continue down the path Achaea is currently set on.

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    SiduriCooperRangorAkia
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Team Red knows it but hasn't said it, but having the staff on top of the eq gem/diadem/quick witted/drs adds very little speed to him.

    Diadem + quick witted + drs is already imbalanced mental afflicting and crush speed, throw in the EQ gem and it's ridiculous, the staff is just icing on the cake.

    A lot of people are saying the EQ gem/staff is fine because only one person in the entire game can get it. Well, entirely ignoring what horrible logic that is, you don't need the staff to be OP with the eq gem.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,048 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You don't need EQ to be OP as monk either. 35-45% prep combos with 20% crushes is a lot of damage output and is hard to mitigate. Iakimen crushed me in 4 combos in Mir with good blunt ring, lvl2 sip, lvl1 regeneration and bracelets/belt (which don't matter on percent based attacks)


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Monks need a complete rework, imo. No one class should have single and group combat supremacy.
    HerenicusUlrike
  • IuneosIuneos Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Good thing monk isn't supreme in single combat. 
    RangorAelios
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Iuneos said:
    Good thing monk isn't supreme in single combat. 

    It actually is, at all levels other than "top tier", which I personally would define as the top 3% of the playerbase.  (In case that was sarcasm on your part, my response is the same, however I don't see anything particularly OP about monk.  It's only "supreme" because so many players refuse to learn how to avoid extremely easily avoided kill setups.)

    At top-tier, it (like many other classes) becomes more or less useless, even with full level 3 artie set + TFs etc, once people know how to properly avoid its several easily recognizable kill setups.  


    Daeir said:
    Monks need a complete rework, imo. No one class should have single and group combat supremacy.

    1v1 monk is fine, but I agree that in general, the weight of group combat competency is (and always has been) massively slanted towards a few specific classes, which is pretty dumb.

    Eventually, I think an interesting idea would be a around of classleads specifically designed to address the unevenness of group combat usefulness of classes.  While I don't honestly think that monk is "too good", I definitely think that it is far better than most other classes - however I think that the fault lies in the other classes, not monk.  [ You could say that it is "OP" based on combat balance, in other words - however I am saying that I think it'd be better to simply increase other classes group combat potency to restore the balance, vice contuining to nerf monk group combat into being equally terrible. ] 

    As of now, there is a list of like 5-7 classes that I simply won't touch, purely because they are useful in 90% of combat (group combat).  That suggests they are simply too weak, not that monk is too strong (it has already been nerfed repeatedly, and is honestly fine as is, ignoring things like Staff of Nicator/relics).

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iuneos said:
        Good thing monk isn't supreme in single combat. 
        have you even fought a monk they do so much dmg
        image
        Bukariin
      2. AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Daeir said:
        Monks need a complete rework, imo. No one class should have single and group combat supremacy.
        Icewalls and monoliths will shut them down 10 times out of 10.

        "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

         -Albert Einstein

      3. JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Fuck almost 100% agreed with ernam until his last sentence. Almost thought the world was ending
        image
        AustereAtalkez
      4. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Halios said:
        Balancing a class around the average fighter is ridiculous.

        Classes should be balanced around -potential-, not application.

        See: The rants about Priest needing buffs, when it's very clear that priest is incredibly strong in the right hands.

        If you buff classes that the masses feel are weak simply because of a high skill-cap, or nerf those with a low skill-cap, you're coddling people who don't want to take the time to optimize their class/abilities and combat awareness, and it will hurt the game at the top tier.
        The problem is that reaching a classes full potential can require thousands of credits, and the fighters that hold all the potentially useful artefacts with respect to that class might only represent a small portion of the active PKers of that class. Ex: Jhui should not be incredibly OP, but it would be ridiculous to balance monk around a Staff holder, because the rest of the monks would get screwed. 

        Its also not nearly as simple as saying that "Monk's skill potential is X, let's balance around that." PKers are always finding new tricks, artefact combinations, etc that affects the way classes are played. Especially given that every classleads round brings significant changes to most classes. 
        image
        Praxides
      5. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        I don't think Halios is suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential with one-of-a-kind Relics.  I think he's suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential as tri-trans, utilizing proper traits, level in the mid to high nineties, and maybe a few common arties (not thousands of dollars' worth) to boot, with a functional modern curing system.
        Jhui
      6. HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        edited September 2014
        Bukariin said:
        I don't think Halios is suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential with one-of-a-kind Relics.  I think he's suggesting Monk should be balanced around its potential as tri-trans, utilizing proper traits, level in the mid to high nineties, and maybe a few common arties (not thousands of dollars' worth) to boot, with a functional modern curing system.
        .

        I just balk at the idea that because someone finds a way to combine tactics, rare items, relics, teamwork, and artefacts, that somehow a -class- needs to be changed.

        I don't think anything -needs- to be changed in that case, personally.

        I think there may need to be some tweaking that prevents killing your allied citymate for a relic.

        Making the RNG of who actually lands the killing blow on the honours mob more important might be more effective, or just binding the relic to the person who picks it up for a period of time.

        Don't make the relics just sit on a person until they die. Make them tied to the person who killed the denizen in the first place and/or for a set amount of time.

        This way, the playing field for OBTAINING the relics in the first place becomes more even because they would cycle more consistently, and having one would make it less likely that you're going to gather them all, unless you just take a 20 person group around sapience gathering them all every time they repop. It would also promote more objectively fair combat because people would skirmish eachother as they form groups to try to take down the denizens, instead of the snowball effect we currently have.

        This way you would get a tangible bonus, that would be more moderated in terms of its effect on the overall health of the conflict(s).

        Additionally, perhaps the relics could be "charged" and lose potency over time. Maybe the EQ gem starts off at 100% potency and 'decays' as it is used, resulting eventually in a husk that disappears etc.

        I'm just trying to think of ways to make relics less snowball-y than they currently are, because I don't think the problem is the fact that people -can- be that strong, it's the fact that it can be sustained for so long, and having one of them makes getting the others that much easier, due to groups who would try to stop you from killing the other honours mobs finding it a worthless endeavor because of your already-enhanced abilities.

        Also I don't think Lifegiver is a healthy item for the game, given the power of the other relics, and the nature of earrings/lust/etc.
        Ethoas
      7. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        And I'll probably keep saying it until my fingers fall off, but the combination of artefacts and relics that made Jhui so powerful would also make any halfway-competent Alchemist, Occultist, Apostate, or Shaman (yes even Shaman) insanely so.
        Josoul
      8. FlorentinoFlorentino Member Posts: 516
        I don't think so, Bukariin - monk has several abilities/combos that are near-unique in strength or ease of application. For instance, almost all of kaido/telepathy can be used while transfixed (and paralyzed too, I think?)...it isn't until you've seen monks earring onto a partner, hit a totem, and near-instantly choke an ally out until you understand their uniquely devastating potential.
        Praxides
      9. HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        I don't think so, Bukariin - monk has several abilities/combos that are near-unique in strength or ease of application. For instance, almost all of kaido/telepathy can be used while transfixed (and paralyzed too, I think?)...it isn't until you've seen monks earring onto a partner, hit a totem, and near-instantly choke an ally out until you understand their uniquely devastating potential.
        One thing I've learned about game balance is that if you phrase it correctly, any class can seem OP in a vacuum.

        Every class has ridiculous capabilities that you could say are "unique."

        That, to me, is good game balance. It's like how they balanced starcraft: broodwar to make it recognized as one of the most fun and balanced games ever to be played competitively.

        Instead of making abilities and units that mimic eachother in capability in all senses, they made units that all have their own "OP" nature, but who all have counters and abilities that are equally strong in other ways on the opposite side.

        It makes for a much more dynamic experience when the game plays like that, and that's why I resist when people complain about one class in a vacuum in some capability or other.
        Ethoas
      10. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Monk, even with the 50 hard nerfs it has had in the last 10 years, is still extremely overpowered in a group setting with or without artefacts.

        JhuiRomSherazad
      11. HodHod Member Posts: 32 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        Cooper said:
        Monk, even with the 50 hard nerfs it has had in the last 10 years, is still extremely overpowered in a group setting with or without artefacts.
        I personally think it's because they have easily the strongest skill set. High melee damage, high damage mitigation, high LoS damage, and on top of that some of the strongest abilities in the game period (radiance, deliverance, mind throw, mind command/strip, enfeeble, pretty much all of telepathy really).
      12. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Thank you for your great insight that none of the rest of us had.

        Atalkez
      13. IuneosIuneos Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        The thing is that you can pick and choose with monk.  Tekura monks lose out on powerful chokes and quick telepathy, and kaido monks lose out on high-damage combos and it takes more than two bbt's to kill someone. It's not that overpowered in 1v1, and tekura monks aren't overpowered in group.  The 'issue' you guys are seeing is people specifically set up FOR group combat support roles.  Yes, it can be annoying but it's not game-breaking because anyone can do it with the same amount of investment that Jhui has put into the game. People are just too lazy to learn how to do it or don't want to spend the money. 
        Jhui
      14. IuneosIuneos Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        yeah and your avatar is dumb.
        CooperJhuiFendrel
      15. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iuneos said:
        The thing is that you can pick and choose with monk.  Tekura monks lose out on powerful chokes and quick telepathy, and kaido monks lose out on high-damage combos and it takes more than two bbt's to kill someone. It's not that overpowered in 1v1, and tekura monks aren't overpowered in group.  The 'issue' you guys are seeing is people specifically set up FOR group combat support roles.  Yes, it can be annoying but it's not game-breaking because anyone can do it with the same amount of investment that Jhui has put into the game. People are just too lazy to learn how to do it or don't want to spend the money. 
        Part of that isn't true.

        A monk setup for tekura in groups is extremely powerful too - kai enfeeble and kai cripple are both incredibly useful/overpowered abilities. Bbt is also an extremely damaging move in group fights.

      16. IuneosIuneos Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        Yes, but the same can be said for any other class in group combat.  They're average.  My statement was that they aren't overpowered, which is true.  
      17. SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Monk has had a lot of big buffs over the years, too. Not all nerfs.

        image

      18. DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iuneos said:
        Yes, but the same can be said for any other class in group combat.  They're average.  My statement was that they aren't overpowered, which is true.  
        No offense, but I think you should actually consider playing the game a little more before trying to make grand assumptions about a class' particular strength. Monks are pretty ridiculous in group settings and have been for as long as I can remember.
      19. IuneosIuneos Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        I'm talking about tekura monks.  Especially now that axk isn't a thing any more, tekura monks are average in group combat.  I said that in my previous post.  
      20. XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
        RIP the days of x3 axk
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
      21. MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,128 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Iuneos said:
        I'm talking about tekura monks.  Especially now that axk isn't a thing any more, tekura monks are average in group combat.  I said that in my previous post.  
        Man. You must think anyone who isn't monk is fking nuts!
        image
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