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Shared XP and Assists

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  • Vaehl
    Vaehl Member Posts: 963 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alright then keep xp shared for non-party members please :smiley: 
    BukariinSenaShirszae
  • Mycen
    Mycen Member Posts: 43 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    You guys are have lost your minds.  You think it's so easy just to snipe kill.. you utterly fail to realize that we often die first if you aren't smart enough to move when someone first targets you.. and even then you get hunted down endlessly when you lave your city.. so sharing sniping exp is just stupid.. first you guys bitched about backstab.. now it's sniping..  Grow up..  but if you are so determined to share in snipe exp.. you gonna share in our deaths too??
    DalranPraxidesSiduriErnam
  • Dalran
    Dalran Member Posts: 244 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That argument went from for snipe sharing, to against in one paragraph. I'm so confused :s
    SiduriKaijin
  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think they're arguing against archers having to share EXP with those pesky melee folk. I think.
  • Siduri
    Siduri Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    The argument saying that a sniper is safe is complete bullcrap.

    1) Chances are both parties have serpents, and that these serpents will be exchanging blow at some point.

    2) If you start moving in the sniper's room, he'll have to melee you (unless YOU are lacking awareness?)

    3) Given how most snipe squads work, people are targetted, and the squad smashes the snipe button until the target comes back in LoS, eats 3 arrows and a soulspear, and dies again. It's not a matter of 'being aware', or of 'moving out when the first arrow hits', since most of the time you don't even get that luxury as a sniper.

    4) Your argument revolves on a moral postulate: "I consider this skill 'easy', thus unworthy of sharing the EXP which I have earned 'the hard way'", which does not take into account the logical postulate that: "Sharing EXP on assists means awarding EXP for helping bring down a target, be it through non-damaging skills or with damaging skills". If we follow your moral line of thought, Monks should not receive EXP for using telepathy to force movement or strip defenses, Necromancers should not be allowed EXP for soulspears, etc. It's a slippery slope that only caters, finally, to a single playstyle and would go against the very idea of shared EXP.

    I'm pretty confident that the admins, should they revise both threads, will just shrug and disregard that bit of nonsensical thinking to concentrate on making a system that's balanced and allows for more versatility.

    image
    Jhaeli
  • Siduri
    Siduri Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And I want to add this:
    1) Sharing EXP means that snipers actually share the kill EXP with the melee fighters, and the other way around too. It's what we call teamwork, and it's fair for everyone.
    2) If serpents start earning EXP for dstabbing, you will most likely start seeing them more and more in melee, where they can be useful -and- rewarded for their varied efforts. Sniping squads might lose a bit of their punch because some serpents will start going into melee now. In the end, it's a matter of using the skills of your class, whatever they are, to help secure victory.

    image
    NimShirszaeJhaeli
  • Vaehl
    Vaehl Member Posts: 963 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    Siduri said:
    The argument saying that a sniper is safe is complete bullcrap.

    1) Chances are both parties have serpents, and that these serpents will be exchanging blow at some point.

    not what I'm talking about

    2) If you start moving in the sniper's room, he'll have to melee you (unless YOU are lacking awareness?)

    LOL

    3) Given how most snipe squads work, people are targetted, and the squad smashes the snipe button until the target comes back in LoS, eats 3 arrows and a soulspear, and dies again. It's not a matter of 'being aware', or of 'moving out when the first arrow hits', since most of the time you don't even get that luxury as a sniper.

    what are you even talking about

    4) Your argument revolves on a moral postulate: "I consider this skill 'easy', thus unworthy of sharing the EXP which I have earned 'the hard way'", which does not take into account the logical postulate that: "Sharing EXP on assists means awarding EXP for helping bring down a target, be it through non-damaging skills or with damaging skills". If we follow your moral line of thought, Monks should not receive EXP for using telepathy to force movement or strip defenses, Necromancers should not be allowed EXP for soulspears, etc. It's a slippery slope that only caters, finally, to a single playstyle and would go against the very idea of shared EXP.

    not really what I'm talking about

    I'm pretty confident that the admins, should they revise both threads, will just shrug and disregard that bit of nonsensical thinking to concentrate on making a system that's balanced and allows for more versatility.

    lol
    Siduri said:
    And I want to add this:
    1) Sharing EXP means that snipers actually share the kill EXP with the melee fighters, and the other way around too. It's what we call teamwork, and it's fair for everyone.

    rofl

    2) If serpents start earning EXP for dstabbing, you will most likely start seeing them more and more in melee, where they can be useful -and- rewarded for their varied efforts. Sniping squads might lose a bit of their punch because some serpents will start going into melee now. In the end, it's a matter of using the skills of your class, whatever they are, to help secure victory.

    what is even going on anymore
    I thought the discussion was over but here are some well thought out counter points.
    JhuiAtalkezDarklyre
  • Atalkez
    Atalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,508 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As a serpent you can easily be just as effective in room with dstab/camus as with snipes.  Sniping is just ez-mode kills.




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Ernam
  • Bukariin
    Bukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    More like Dajio mode am I right
  • Jurixe
    Jurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,748 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't really care about getting Dragon and so xp isn't a huge subject for me, but I would disagree as well with snipers not being able to share in the xp. As long as we are counting contribution to the kill, people should be able to share in the reward. Sniping by itself, unless there really are a ton of arrows all firing at once, doesn't do much - you need someone in the room to help with hindering to pin the person down while the snipes do the damage. Yes, perhaps comparatively the sniper(s) is/are in less immediate danger, but that doesn't mean they contribute any less. Maybe if you wanted to scale it, people out of the room could get marginally less, but I definitely don't think line of sight should be completely excluded.

    Speaking as someone with terrible Internet, sniping is pretty much the only way I can reasonably contribute in a fight. I've tried the dstab/bite thing before, but huge chunks of text move so fast that I don't even know whether it went through or if it just hit rebounding/sileris, and usually the target's escaped/died by the time it comes through. So I resort to sniping because I can stay out of spam, still contribute, and hopefully die a little less. Dying itself actually doesn't bother me that much, but I can just help so much more with sniping than otherwise.

    Sure, I guess it is easy mode and I'm not trying to make it like I'm some great combatant. But while I recognise the desire to shift group pvp to a more melee-centric environment, I don't think that line of sight should be penalised that heavily either. Sometimes, even independent of Internet woes, it's just a way for people to get more confident in combat before shifting into full on in your face melee mode.

    If you like my stories, you can find them here:
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    ShirszaeSiduriJhaeli
  • Synbios
    Synbios Member Posts: 4,634 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not a sniper and even I think that they should receive xp portions as long as they belong to the same party/city/org/whatever floats your boat.

  • Siduri
    Siduri Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Mycen said:
    You guys are have lost your minds.  You think it's so easy just to snipe kill.. you utterly fail to realize that we often die first if you aren't smart enough to move when someone first targets you.. and even then you get hunted down endlessly when you lave your city.. so sharing sniping exp is just stupid.. first you guys bitched about backstab.. now it's sniping..  Grow up..  but if you are so determined to share in snipe exp.. you gonna share in our deaths too??
    It is literally the easiest way to be a strong contributor to a fight in the game. You do significant damage and venom burden from the safety of 1-12 rooms away, on a class that has evade, wormholes, two tree tattoos, phase. You hit one alias every few seconds, and if you're into advanced snipebot techniques, you periodically squint to see how the rest of your team is doing and if you're about to get targeted next.

    Before I started class hopping, I had 120~ kills and about 35~ deaths. Every single one from sniping. It isn't hard. At all. 
    The point here is not whether it is 'hard' or 'easy'. It is 'does it contribute', and you said it yourself here. :)

    image
    JhaeliNim
  • Mishgul
    Mishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    i don't get it

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • Jovolo
    Jovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It isn't irrelevant, because the main point I think me and Vaehl are trying to argue is whether or not we should encourage this type of fighting by providing positive reinforcement of it in the form of experience. That's very relevant to the topic at hand and it's my position is that we shouldn't do this. Snipers already got more than enough for their contribution, objectively, in the form of immense kill-to-death ratios and large positive amounts of exp. I only previously focused on sniping because it was already brought up as an example. I don't think you should get experience for any out of room kills if you didn't get the kill yourself.  

    Whether you agree with it or not is different, and it seems most people disagree. That's fine. Ranged fighting will always be a dynamic of group combat, and I guess most of you want to treat it this similarly to melee fighting.
    Dalran
  • Siduri
    Siduri Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Jovolo : I don't want to make this sound like it's personal or anything. But why do you believe the administration should discourage an entire mechanic that they, themselves, put into the class abilities. I mean, if they wanted to discourage it, we wouldn't have these abilities to begin with (such as what they did with the old hypnosis theft, or area-wide kai chokes).

    What @Zeon said is actually very true. It means that snipers will see a decrease in their net exp because they now have to share it with melee fighters who work to kill. It encourages a dynamic that's part of the system.

    Finally, EXP sharing from assists will -encourage- some classes to just come and melee, varying strategies. You don't need to give an ass the stick if the carrot works.

    image
    SynbiosNim
  • Halios
    Halios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If I choke someone for 35% of their hp and don't get shared xp for that kill something is seriously, seriously wrong.
    SiduriAmarillysShirszae
  • Vaehl
    Vaehl Member Posts: 963 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    yea tbh you're right.
    AmarillysSiduri
  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    You're talking about two separate problems. Shared EXP is to fix the problem of people contributing to kills but not getting rewarded for it.

    You're talking about the problem that sniping is too easy. That's a separate problem entirely, and should thus be fixed separately. Not giving people EXP for sniping will not solve the problem that sniping is too easy - it might discourage people from sniping, but it'll still be easy if they choose to do so. If it remains highly effective, orgs may even compensate their snipebots in some way to keep them, for example.

    However, it will diminish the solution for this problem - now you'll have a class of people who contribute toward kills but don't get EXP for it. Problem 1 not fully solved, problem 2 not truly solved.
    Siduri
  • Iocun
    Iocun Member Posts: 3,691 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    It isn't irrelevant, because the main point I think me and Vaehl are trying to argue is whether or not we should encourage this type of fighting by providing positive reinforcement of it in the form of experience.
    It wouldn't encourage sniping any more than it is currently encouraged. If anything it would encourage any form of fast-hitting offence that hits multiple targets without doing much damage. Sniping hits a single target, does plenty of damage, and isn't faster than a lot of other attacks, so it wouldn't benefit disproportionally from such an addition. It would simply remain a fine attack choice for people who want to get kills(/assists) while staying out of harm's way.
    Siduri
  • Merador
    Merador Member Posts: 107
    @Tecton @Sarapis Any updates on this at all?
    KuyMathonwy
  • Melodie
    Melodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,185 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am still in so much support of this idea.

    So much.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
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    KuyTibitha
  • Jovolo
    Jovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This with the removal of experience loss propaganda. We'd all get Dragon in a week :D
  • Mishgul
    Mishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can imagine there are massive upheavals of code for this to be implemented properly. Flagging attacks as assistable for example.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • Merador
    Merador Member Posts: 107
    edited March 2015
    @Mishgul Did you read the other posts?

    @Tecton: "Actually, we have most of the framework in position already for this, so you can probably expect it some time in the future!"

    @Sarapis: "Well, it'll only apply to PvE at first, but the changes required to adapt the system to PvP shouldn't be too large. It won't be completely "accurate" in the sense that we're not going to worry about whether webbing someone is more or less valuable than afflicting them with asthma, but other than that should work out."

    Obviously there may have been complications, but these comments were made 6 months ago.
    Prythe
  • Mishgul
    Mishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes. Reminds me of when I am talking to customers from my workplace.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • Tecton
    Tecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,507 Admin
    Still on the books, it's just lower down the list than many other changes!
    KresslackValaria
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