Upcoming revisions to PvE combat

Klendathu

Shirszae said:

Pretty dull as in, bashing in every other area? Or somehow duller? At least there I suppose there is no shortage of mobs. So its still a plus.

You don't move, you just mash your bashing alias. More dull (you don't move)

Athelas

@Sarapis All of this is fantastic. But please, for the sake of those who can only be in the realm when 90% of the player base is sleeping, keep some places around where an individual can gain reasonable XP/GP while bashing alone. Right now, as things stand, the gains for group bashing are way above going solo. Anyone that has a timezone challenge is at a severe dis-advantage because of this.

Nellaundra

I'm calling bullcrap on that one. I bashed with Tessa yesterday (us hitting Morindar, which is higher than what either of us can really hit solo) and I was still gaining xp faster alone than with her. She's 82, I'm 83, and while group bashing is much better than it was before, solo is still mildly better.

Klendathu

Athelas said:

@Sarapis All of this is fantastic. But please, for the sake of those who can only be in the realm when 90% of the player base is sleeping, keep some places around where an individual can gain reasonable XP/GP while bashing alone. Right now, as things stand, the gains for group bashing are way above going solo. Anyone that has a timezone challenge is at a severe dis-advantage because of this.

You're not hunting the right areas solo if you think group hunting has faster xp gain. If you're having to hit and run, it's not efficient. I guess it depends on why you're hunting.

Athelas

Nellaundra said:

I'm calling bullcrap on that one. I bashed with Tessa yesterday (us hitting Morindar, which is higher than what either of us can really hit solo) and I was still gaining xp faster alone than with her. She's 82, I'm 83, and while group bashing is much better than it was before, solo is still mildly better.

Athelas went bashing with a group four to five RL weeks ago, at level 80. He gained 10% in under 10 minutes while hunting some Vertani. At one point, I literally watched the XP jump like a stop-watch counting up.

If that was some kind of fluke, so be it. But I am deriving my opinion from that experience.

Klendathu said:

You're not hunting the right areas solo if you think group hunting has faster xp gain. If you're having to hit and run, it's not efficient. I guess it depends on why you're hunting.

Please elaborate, I'd love to know where a lvl 83 Druid can bash. Couple of problems though:

Sentient denizens are only valid targets if:

1. they are in some way enemies of the forest. e.g. Buckawns.

2. they attack first. e.g. Inmates in Creville asylum.

With the past great hunt, I was amazed to see how some racked up 4000 points in a matter of hours. I wondered how that was possible, until I found an entire village of peaceful denizens, decimated by an individual who's supposed to be an IC Mr. Niceguy.

I don't play that kind of game, so your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Nellaundra

Getting drug around by two or more dragons who can oneshot everything in their path with ridiculous crits cannot be in any way compared to actually bashing -with- someone of your same level, taking things on that are moderately stronger. Being drug around by dragons is by far the most efficient option, especially when they're taking you to dragon-only areas. Or even just "near" dragons like 95+.

Klendathu

Athelas said:

Klendathu said:

You're not hunting the right areas solo if you think group hunting has faster xp gain. If you're having to hit and run, it's not efficient. I guess it depends on why you're hunting.

Please elaborate, I'd love to know where a lvl 83 Druid can bash. Couple of problems though:

Sentient denizens are only valid targets if:

1. they are in some way enemies of the forest. e.g. Buckawns.

2. they attack first. e.g. Inmates in Creville asylum.

With the past great hunt, I was amazed to see how some racked up 4000 points in a matter of hours. I wondered how that was possible, until I found an entire village of peaceful denizens, decimated by an individual who's supposed to be an IC Mr. Niceguy.

I don't play that kind of game, so your advice would be greatly appreciated.

It's not for me to say where you can or can't hunt, based on your IC restrictions. I was speaking in general - if you have to hit and run, it's inefficient hunting. Find areas you can hunt without hit and run which meet your IC restrictions. If you haven't already, try venturing across the wilderness to some of the less well travelled areas, usually plenty to hunt.

Mathonwy

It's probably not going to happen just because of how ingrained the mentality is, but I'd love to see Achaea try something novel for PvE that isn't the same raid endgame healer/tank/dps/etc. that's been around since Everquest was relevant (the first time).

Athelas

Nellaundra said:

Getting drug around by two or more dragons who can oneshot everything in their path with ridiculous crits cannot be in any way compared to actually bashing -with- someone of your same level, taking things on that are moderately stronger. Being drug around by dragons is by far the most efficient option, especially when they're taking you to dragon-only areas. Or even just "near" dragons like 95+.

Hmm. There were no dragons in the group I was with. Some were close though.

Tisel

Nellaundra said:

... Being drug around by dragons is by far the most efficient option, especially when they're taking you to dragon-only areas. Or even just "near" dragons like 95+.

That doesn't really sound fun to me. Sure, I could go on tour with Metallica, but it's not going to really make me a better guitar player.

Cynlael

Not to offend or anything, but if you're getting exp faster in a group then solo, then that's because of your own bashing capability. Not because group bashing is better. Also four-five weeks ago, when you said it happened, was when the group exp thing was bugged. So... Just yesterday I cleared Moghedu/Arcadia with Sowen (I'm 89, she's 90) and I got ~4-5%... I did the same solo about 2 hours later, and got a bit over 11%, and it only took 10-15m longer.

Traelor

I love the idea of instanced areas that require some sort of quest to get into. I think that's exactly the type of thing Achaea needs to remain relevant. In the 17 years since Achaea has launched, a lot of other MMOs have come along and done some interesting things. Borrowing from those ideas and adjusting them for us could be a huge boon.

You could do a lot with Lord Aeon. He could take you back and forth through the Mythos and task you with helping heroes from history at critical moments. Then it makes IC sense why you're offplane, why you're trying the same thing someone else might try without them being there, and why you might be trying over and over again.

Help Ashaxei escape Krenindala, thwart an assassination attempt on a young Nicator, help defeat the Triumvirate. The possibilities are endless.

Sarapis

Mathonwy said:

It's probably not going to happen just because of how ingrained the mentality is, but I'd love to see Achaea try something novel for PvE that isn't the same raid endgame healer/tank/dps/etc. that's been around since Everquest was relevant (the first time).

Actually, it's been around much longer. Everquest was a straight-up graphical implementation of a DIKU MUD (probably the most popular MUD codebase, allowing anyone with no creativity whatsoever to download a functioning MUD, starting areas included), using almost the exact same mechanics in many places. 

Cynlael

   -My Idea-

Wordy post incoming! (I don't have much time on my hands, I swear.)

Firstly: The layout

Secondly: Thought Process

Estimated Time: 25-30 minutes. (After learning fights)
Minimum Members: 3-5.     XP loss on death: Same as starbursting to players - portal to E upon death, rather than praying.
Ideal HP Needed: 4500.    Cooldown Between Runs: 36 hours. (Beginning after slaying first boss)

(Unlike WoW) Restrictions: If group leaves the instance after a boss is slain, no one of that party may re-enter unless all of same members are present, to prevent mix-matching of people to take down encounters. Plan ahead!

=Rewards=
5% stacking xp bonus for each boss defeated, lasting 6 hours. (Will activate upon leaving the instance)
3000g per boss, per person: covers curatives, as well as a small extra.
Random, temporary artefact for each person (listed below - requires slaying of final boss to obtain)

Thirdly: Ideas

-General Instance Idea-
Each room will contain 1-3 mobs of varying difficulty (some passive, some aggressive, some may team, while others won't, some might do little damage-but high afflictions, others will do high burst damage with minor afflictions such as proning or paralysis) - each room will yield approximately 150 gold, split automatically to all present members, possibly even the chance for random bundles of curatives to drop (5 bloodroot, 3 potash etc, to help offset curatives used in the instance itself)

-Possible Boss Ideas-
1) Initially a stone statue - activated by solving a riddle of sorts, or a puzzle before the statue is broken to reveal the boss inside.
2) NPC that accompanies you, turns out to betray you, trapping you in the room with them.
3) Council of Elders - 2-4 denizens with varying tactics to take down, all that you must be aware of whilst participating in the boss fight. (1 mob does high damage, another afflicts, another heals - effects lessened so long as all the bosses are attacking a different target. If the denizen is attacking the same target for too long, they will begin to gain strength)
4) Necromancer (lore-kind, not player-kind) who draws power from your party, and uses it against you while summoning different types of undead throughout the fight - can be left alive, but each undead present in the room will grant the Necromancer more power / different abilities depending on which are kept alive.
5) Same denizen for the 2nd fight, (Lol hi Kael'thas/Onyxia [anyone who's raided in WoW will get this reference]) - he was only gravely wounded, not dead. Ended up obtaining equipment from the Council of Elders to restore his strength anew. Being the final boss, he can have a varying amount of effects attached to him such as:
      -Levers located throughout the instance (yes, the entire instance) that must be pulled upon seeing the warning, otherwise he'll obliterate your party. (Can be colour coded to make it easier to find, once the locations have been figured out)
      -No 'set target' and will attack whoever he wants, whenever he wants, with whatever he wants. Gotta keep your party on their toes!
      -Portal random party members into a temporary location throughout the instance, wherein they will need to defeat a denizen of varying difficult before being allowed back into the fight
      -The possibilities are basically limitless. But the last boss fights tend to be the hardest, so should give it something to make it so.

Lastly: The rewards

Temporary Artefacts - all of which last a random amount of time between 12-24 hours, and may only be traded between the original members of the party (alternative solution just below)
Level 1 con/str/dex/int artefacts
Level 0.5 health sip / mana sip / health boost / mana boost artefacts, that have half the benefit of a level 1
Weakened aldar talisman/diadem (has half the effect of the normal one - non stacking)
Weakened buckawns boots/amulet (has a 50% chance to stop web)
Weakened SoA (blocks 75% of the damage when it fires, rather than the entire attack)
Butterfly Wings (like eagle wings, except only has exits to the cities of sapience)

---
Increasing 10% chance to yield a full strength artefact -(Level 3, for the stat/health or mana boosting ones. Wings will be eagle ones, not Atavian)- This increases each time you complete the instance, up to a maximum of 60%.
-Bonus will reset to 10% when you gain a maximum strength artefact. - These, too, are temporary. But last a full 24 hours.
---
Alternative reward-
There is an Alchemist at the beginning of the instance, who will appear upon defeating the final boss. He will give you one opportunity to transmute the artefact (He will be active for 15 minutes after killing the final boss, disappearing early if your entire party leaves the instance) - The transmuting will turn the artefact into between 3-5 unbound credits, depending on what was transmuted. This will be doubled for full strength artefacts.

5am, can't be bothered adding in the rest of what I was gonna add. Just my idea though. Didn't include any parts leading up to how to get into the instance itself (mainly cause I'm not sure what it would be linked to)

Florentino

Don't make these instances. This should be what fighting Chenubis, Mhunna, Alduril, and the Wyrm Lord is like.

tl;dr - more Oughlor/Rakia, beings integrated with the existing world, rather than instances.

Tisel

can we get things for the under 80 crowd that dragons+ can't get at?

Korben

Once again I quote something I said a year ago.

Achaean bashing -is- dull.

But, and I've been saying it since the first forums opened, Achaean bashing doesn't have to be dull. PvE skills could mesh together better, mobs could be more amenable to group tactics, bashing areas could be designed as a challenge for a group.

"But Korben, bashing is dull on purpose so people will RP and fight more." - Perhaps so, but we aren't newbies any more. We know what we like, we know what we want from the game. So give the four kinds of player (fighters/explorers/achievers/socializers) stuff for them to do, at their level of prowess, in each of their four bailiwicks.

Moving onward.

I don't see why the group-bashing changes have to be limited to boss fights. It's more interesting and immersive if the small mobs use group tactics agains us. For example, you could have many mob types in an area; mob A steps in front (and takes the damage) if you attack the others. Mob B chooses one target and hits that over and over. Mob C does an area effect attack. Mob D does little damage but his attack slows you down (Aeon, web, etc). Mob E sometimes calls for help, drawing other mobs in. Mob F heals other mobs. Mob G nullifies some of your skills... you get the idea. Depending on what combination you have in the room, the bashing group has to adopt different tactics, and adapt on the fly if new mobs walk in.

Sarapis

It's going to be largely limited to boss fights because it's not worth the time to go back and retrofit all of our mobs. Far far too much work. The solutions for 98% of mobs have to be generic as far as their capabilities go, and can't even affect their attack messages for the most part, as many of those are individual to a mob type. 

Mobs will get smarter about selecting targets, but that's about it from their side as a matter of necessity, barring specific hand-crafted exceptions. Most of the variety's going to go into new player PvE abilities, although simply making mobs smarter about selecting targets is going to make combat feel a lot different. Some mobs might just hammer on the person they consider the biggest threat. Some may decide to pick off the weakest members of the group first, etc. Going to make aggro management a "thing" I hope.

Santar

"Boss" fights definitely do need to be fixed. Probably one of the top 5 most broken things in Achaea. It's been that way for a long time. The introduction of relics only served to highlight that problem.

Sarapis

I don't think boss fights in general are broken. I just think they mainly suck.

Sarapis

I also don't want you guys to expect too much here. We're never going to be a great PvE game. We just want that part of the game to be more fun than it is now.

Santar

I think virtually anything is going to be better than "Fight monster with obscene health, no crits, that kills you in 1.5 seconds."

Looking forward to see how it goes.

Sarapis

Yeah, I agree. The trouble in general is balancing group size vs. "F-you die right now" abilities to help mobs deal with group size, without resorting to either the cop-out of "You're just all dead" or "The more people you bring, the less damage each of you does." Instances deal well with that problem, I'll grant, as they can dictate group size, but we're not going that route.

Cynlael

For things like say, Jeramun, you could limit the amount of people that can be in that little area he's in. Then prevent stuff like summoning, portals and such. That'd make them a lot easier to balance, and you can then add different abilities to them, that are balanced around people bringing those numbers to take him down.

Greys

Mob is on a small platform and that can hold only so many; a new person coming in knocks someone off it so they fall into a pit in a different spot of the dungeon.

Cynlael

(Can we get the old forum posting back? This one is bad and mucks up formatting.)

Cynlael said:

For things like say, Jeramun, you could limit the amount of people that can be in that little area he's in. Then prevent stuff like summoning, portals and such. That'd make them a lot easier to balance, and you can then add different abilities to them, that are balanced around people bringing those numbers to take him down.

A more thought out idea for this, since instances won't be happening. (Not that I have any issues with that, those tend to take a lot more time to balance out)

Layout, which is already in place. (I think I remembered the layout correctly?)

How to enter:

Belladona's Lair - Max people: 5

To prevent griefers; four people must be following one in order to enter at point E, you cannot enter the lair portion while solo. Leaving must be done the same way, unless people die. Portals/Summoning are ineffective.

What everything does:

-All are immune to critical hits-

Servant One - Mini-boss | HP: 75,000 (Assuming average hit of 1000 each from players)

Average hit: 1400 | Attacks at random | Attacks every 3.5 seconds

Special abilities:

1. Vampiric Drain - Heals for double the damage he strikes for with the attack.
2. Frenzy - Strikes everyone in the area for 2500 unblockable damage.
3. Rampage - Activated when below 20,000 hp, double his damage (deactivates if he goes above 20,000 again)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Servant Two - Mini-boss | HP: 100,000 (Weak versus fire and cutting damage)

Average hit: 2000 | Attacks at random | Attacks every 4 seconds

Can stun + paralyse, prone or blackout on each hit. (Stun+ one of the afflictions)

Special abilities:

1. Vampiric Drain - Heals for double the damage he strikes for with the attack.
   
2. Knockout - 10second unconscious on person struck - Unconscious people cannot be targeted by his attacks.
3. Obliterate - 10s channel wherein he will kill the person focused, if they are not shielded or out of the room.
4. Rampage - Activated below 30,000 hp. Attacks every 2.5seconds instead, Obliterate only has a 6second channel.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belladona - Boss | HP: 400,000 (Weak versus fire and cutting damage)

Average hit: 1200 | Random, higher priority to attack ones who land killing blows on servants | Attacks every 2 seconds

Can stun+paralyse, paralyse+stupidity+clumsiness or stun+prone+blackout on each hit.

If any of the servants are left alive, they will be called to her immediately upon engaging. Have fun if you do that  

Special abilities:

1. Recall servant: Calls back one of her servants every 45 seconds, making her immune to damage in the process. This also stops her from attacking, 45 second timer is paused as well until the servant dies.
2. Vampiric Drain - Heals for double the damage she strikes for with the attack.
3. Annihilation - Same as obliterate, but will hit all who're present.
4. Plague - No damage, but will cause a stack of random afflictions (not loki) on the target hit.
5. Rampage - Activated below 35,000 hp. Annihilation has a 5second cooldown, plague causes an extra affliction, Vampiric Drain will heal triple the amount and attacks will deal approximately 25% more damage.

Rewards, I'm not sure. But everyone who participates in the fight should get the honours line, rather than just the person who lands the killing blow.

Sarapis

Daeir said:

Sarapis said:

I also don't want you guys to expect too much here. We're never going to be a great PvE game. We just want that part of the game to be more fun than it is now.

Don't beat yourself down like that!

You seriously could make the PvE experience amazing, it'd just require a LOT of work.

It'd also require a completely separate combat system from PvP, which isn't going to happen. Would never be worthwhile.

Aerek

Vote for PvE equality! Allow denizens to score critical hits on adventurers!

Jarrod

If Ugrach WSCs you, everyone who's online in your city (or all in-realm rogues if applicable) dies.

Please.

Nellaundra

Now imagine if you have to go kill Ugrach for that relic crit pendant.