Upcoming revisions to PvE combat

Borran

I'd like to see more mob juggling, like how I did mhun knights or vertani when I was 1x trans level 55, instead of bashing being like magi staffcasting different elements to maximize damage on different mobs.

Atalkez

I'm sure when @Sarapis‌ and the team want ideas, they will open a Classleads.

Excited for the upcoming changes. Bashing is too boring most of the time.

Sarapis

It's cool. Ideas are always good as long as people don't expect commentary on them. I look at player ideas as more an expression of desires than as something literally to implement most of the time, barring very specific changes that are easily defined. 

Pertius

I think the other thing that turns some people off is that some of the best hunting areas for the people who are around level 75-85ish have protection by various city states and keeps them from hunting because the very few areas that aren't protected get bashed out very quickly.  No one wants to spend 3 hours hunting to see a 1% increase towards the next level because the harder, "better" areas for them to hunt are off limits or bashed out.

Masaryk

Pertius said:

I think the other thing that turns some people off is that some of the best hunting areas for the people who are around level 75-85ish have protection by various city states and keeps them from hunting because the very few areas that aren't protected get bashed out very quickly.  No one wants to spend 3 hours hunting to see a 1% increase towards the next level because the harder, "better" areas for them to hunt are off limits or bashed out.

I'm tired of killing 8,000 sheep to get my .2%

On the other hand, I do loooooooove mutton

Vortok

I faintly recall back when WoW came out I heard a story about how Koralin (one of the first Dragons) had hit max level in week.  It sounded very strange from an Achaean standpoint since hitting max level back then was something that could easily take (RL) months or years and was something that could be a driving motivation for someone.  The concept of 'get to max level before you can play the real game' was very foreign.

Having had a chance to play several MMOs of the mainstream variety since then, I will say the number one thing I've liked about Achaea's PVE in comparison is that the entire world stays relevant forever.  There's no 'gray' denizens that stop giving exp because you're too high level.  Sure, it may not be efficient to be in Actar at level 90+, but if you want to there's nothing stopping you.  It really helps the world continue to feel like a world.  I'll just point to the South Park WoW episode that I'm sure many are familiar with, where they grinded on boars in the newbie zone to level (something mechanically impossible in WoW since they go gray and stop giving exp).  Also, the ever popular dream of hitting Dragon off of a baby rat.  Off the top of my head, the only graphical MMO that keeps the world relevant like that instead of constantly making more and more of it obsolete is Runescape.  And it has a rather extensive, intertwining world that's interesting to explore because of it.

In too many MMOs you get to max level and then promptly ignore 95% of the gameworld as if it doesn't exist and generally go between idling in town, doing dailies, and running instanced dungeons/raids.  Even simple things like corpse turn in quests help keep the overall world relevant in Achaea.  Such as if a new area comes out that has denizens that match the type desired for the quest in an older area.

As an aside, another thing I really enjoy about Achaea's PVE is that it doesn't follow the annoying stereotype that Magic class automatically = drops like a sack of potatoes if hit (at least in D&D settings high level wizards generally get utterly ridiculous spells to compensate for their low level woes - but that leads to another type of balancing).  Can't count the number of times in another MMO I've been limited because my magic class is a 'dps' that has no durability and can't heal itself (thus I had to play other classes I'm less interested in thematically because they fill a particular role among the 'holy trinity').

All that said, any attempt at semi-intricate PVE combat will also require careful consideration of criticals (if not a revamp).  Because World Shattering Crits are a thing (especially for pendant toting Dragons), but also not something the average player can expect to bust out with any regularity.  There's more than one story of a group of people that went to hunt Maim/Bella/Z, only for someone to open up with a WSC and instantly end the fight.

Suppose that could be resolved with a health gate mechanic, such as making 'boss' denizens unable to take more than a specific amount of damage in a single hit - say 3-5 times that of whatever class has the highest single hit with full arties and a Truefavor).  That way crits would still have offensive value without making such a night and day difference to the length of the fight.  Could even play around with letting the high end crits apply a debuff (whether just to bosses or to anything that lives through them).  Say something simple like 'does X% less damage for Y amount of time' or makes it take extra damage from further attacks (single large debuff of smaller but stackable to a certain limit).  That way the 'rare' crits have additional value instead of just feeling like a complete waste due to the health gating.

And as people have mentioned, some classes have a bit more depth to them than others.  I feel fairly fortunate to have leveled as Magi - Stormhammer, Reflection, Flood (if Grook), Adduction, and Harmony all gave interesting options beyond the standard 'hit X' abilities - sometimes a combination of the above.  Utility stuff like Sonicportal, Crystalhome, and even Aerial (not all classes can fly, and it does come in handy) are nice to have in a PVE setting, too.  That's probably always something I've looked at when glancing at other classes skillsets: How few of those are still usable when I'm not fighting another player?  Shaman in particular has always stood out to me as having very few abilities that function outside of player combat (especially if you don't count puppets of allies).

Klendathu

Can't crit honours mobs nowadays, so one-shotting Bella etc is already a thing of the past.

Nim

More ways to level that don't involve ruthless mass murder. Like sparring in arenas (with NPCs), training with weaponmasters, etc. Maybe tea parties with unicorns and faerie dragons in which you discuss the mysteries of life and how @Xer x @Hasar OTP. Maybe NPC raiding parties can be a thing and you can help protect villages for happy feelings and stuff.

Borran

I agree, Except the tea parties.  This isn't Lusternia.

Hasar

Nim said:

More ways to level that don't involve ruthless mass murder. Like sparring in arenas (with NPCs), training with weaponmasters, etc. Maybe tea parties with unicorns and faerie dragons in which you discuss the mysteries of life and how @Xer x @Hasar OTP. Maybe NPC raiding parties can be a thing and you can help protect villages for happy feelings and stuff.

??? What are you? Who are you?? - YOU SCARE ME WOMAN. 

@Xer stop talking to Heathens pls.

Sarapis

Vortok said:

 There's no 'gray' denizens that stop giving exp because you're too high level.  

Mainly true, though not 100% If you get high enough level, some lower level denizens will stop giving you xp entirely. It's possible that only Penwize ever ran into this limit though and it may not kick in at all until level 130 or something.

Rangor

Ooo. What can this do for city guards. Would love if city guards was turned into super challenging pve/pvp hybrid.

Rangor

I would not want instanced dungeons. Part of what makes achaea awesome is that you always have to interact with people everywhere.

Itkovian

Well, I for one like the potential of having higher time spent/xp gained per mob. This will increase the XP density of an area, and lessen the possibility of areas being hunted out all the time. More XP available for more players is a good thing.

Let's remember that struggling to find stuff to hunt and gain XP is not actually a feature, it's a problem that MMOs strive to avoid, and so this potential change is a good one.

It'll be good to be able to hunt an area and not be annoyed just because someone else is also hunting it. If skill is needed to hunt efficiently, let it be for actually fighting the denizens, not with how efficient you can make your "bashing parkour".

Vuzashi

Itkovian said:

Well, I for one like the potential of having higher time spent/xp gained per mob. This will increase the XP density of an area, and lessen the possibility of areas being hunted out all the time. More XP available for more players is a good thing.

Let's remember that struggling to find stuff to hunt and gain XP is not actually a feature, it's a problem that MMOs strive to avoid, and so this potential change is a good one.

It'll be good to be able to hunt an area and not be annoyed just because someone else is also hunting it. If skill is needed to hunt efficiently, let it be for actually fighting the denizens, not with how efficient you can make your "bashing parkour".

But what about those who had to walk barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways?

Also, I think instanced dungeons would be awesome.

Stuneree

I'm not sure how many people on this game are familiar with World of Warcraft, but I've seen it (and similar aspects of it) mentioned a lot in this thread, so I feel the need to explain something:

"Vanilla" WoW - 2004: Getting to the max level not only took several months, but was extremely difficult. Required questing and grinding, and the help of other players was a huge asset. There were several dungeons for all levels, along with bracketed PvP. Despite the game being incredibly difficult, it created a balance of social interaction and an even amount of people per level. Outdoor raids were common, and group questing was necessary often. 

WoW Mists of Pandaria - Now: Getting to the max level is REQUIRED to experience anything in-game, before level 90 you're worthless. The reason 90 is required is because it can be done in under 24 hours played time or less if you know what you're doing. The game is full of AFKers. If they aren't afk, they're in an instance and you'll never see them. With queues for all dungeons, you can play World of Warcraft for 16 hours a day without every speaking a single word to a single other player, EVER.

I'm making two points here:

1. Instances = Chopping social interactions up, which is a waste of a MUD.

2. If leveling is too easy and fast, it becomes a waste. Everyone will be level 100, and anyone below it will be expected to get there. See: Every theme-park MMO in existence.

tl;dr Don't wish for an easy game, because once it's made easy, it can't be changed back. See: World of Warcraft.

Sarapis

Rangor said:

I would not want instanced dungeons. Part of what makes achaea awesome is that you always have to interact with people everywhere.

I'm pretty anti-instanced dungeons myself, for that reason. 

Cynlael

Vanilla only took that long if you were bad, lol. No way you're getting to 90 in less than 24 hours either. Less than 48 is doable, but definitely not 24, even with all the experience bonuses.

Instances also only 'chop social interaction' if they're entered the same way WoW is. If the instances aren't soloable (ala Aetolia), and you're forced to find others to go with you, then you're interacting with people. (How Vanilla was)

tl;dr Instances don't do anything in regards to interaction, unless you make them soloable / auto-match people with one another / make the content 'afkable'

Nim

I think group puzzle instances could be cool, where you need teamwork to get through (maybe involving splitting up, etc). Make them item world puzzle dimensions as a way to grind rapiers up instead of playing slots forever.

Jhaeli

Adding more mobs/making them re-pop faster does not automatically have to equal a higher rate of xp/hour, as there are ways of compensating. 

Making it easier to find hunting targets makes sense though. There are few things more off-putting than going out and finding out that all of your favourite hunting spots are picked clean. 

Triak

Sarapis said:

Rangor said:

I would not want instanced dungeons. Part of what makes achaea awesome is that you always have to interact with people everywhere.

I'm pretty anti-instanced dungeons myself, for that reason. 

I'm not really sure where this idea comes from.  Instanced PVE isn't necessarily single player by definition.  Aetolia has a cavern filled with high level mobs that is instanced and you can take others with you via 'sycning' with them.  As per the WoW example that many people referred to here, instances in WoW are not single player.

Of course though, the whole idea behind instancing PVE areas comes from the root problem of there not being enough PVE areas to bash.  If you can provide more plentiful areas to bash then it isn't needed.

Borran

I remember being introduced to Aetolia as the Red-headed step child of IRE. Maybe that's why they got instanced dungeons- so IRE doesn't have to give them new pve areas.  =P

Stuneree

Cynlael said:

Vanilla only took that long if you were bad, lol. No way you're getting to 90 in less than 24 hours either. Less than 48 is doable, but definitely not 24, even with all the experience bonuses.

Instances also only 'chop social interaction' if they're entered the same way WoW is. If the instances aren't soloable (ala Aetolia), and you're forced to find others to go with you, then you're interacting with people. (How Vanilla was)

tl;dr Instances don't do anything in regards to interaction, unless you make them soloable / auto-match people with one another / make the content 'afkable'

In response to WoW: The fastest non-recruit a friend 90 was just under 12 hours. My recent 90 about 30, without full heirlooms.

On topic, though: What I mean is that the moment there are players in an area where others can't possibly see them, it immediately lessens the "MMO" part of an "MMORPG", specifically the second "M".

I just think if there are dungeon/puzzle sort of deals, maybe make them outdoors and competitive. Or, if there ARE instanced, make the method of getting to them competitive and difficult. As @Cynlael‌ said, the method WoW uses for instances ruins social interaction because you suddenly teleport into a dungeon. Maybe if an instance can only be entered every few hours, and it isn't a cake-walk to get to it?

And of course: Requires a group.

@Triak The problem is that while WoW dungeons aren't TECHNICALLY single player, they are accessible by 100% single player means, and do not require any interaction with other players. This obviously won't be how Achaea would end up though. I'm just slightly pro-no-instance, personally.

Anedhel

Instances are a bad idea, but I wouldn't mind a way of 'upping the ante' with certain denizen groups. The most obvious example that springs to mind would be to have some way of challenging an area to bring out tougher enemies- there'd be a minimum adventurers in a party requirement, and the mobs that come out would be much harder versions of the toughest denizens of that type (say, if you do this in Moghedu, you get a number of keepers that are immune to critical hits and are more in number, and also hang out in bigger groups than normal), in some way or another.

In order to do this, you'd need to be able to find the head honcho of said area/denizen group, and perhaps require a talisman set that's much more frequent than most, but still not too easy to put together, so this isn't happening every five minutes. One idea is that this talisman set will not be tradeable; to put it together, you'd have to hunt to find the pieces yourself, and then gather up the necessary helpers to activate it in the area of your choice.

Anyone who walks in on an area while it's riled up like that is just going to have to deal with obnoxiously strong mobs. Perhaps a line could be added for room descs when the area's elevated in strength? Something like the line you get when it's snowing, or whatever, just to let people know that it's extra dangerous at the moment.

This wouldn't work on all areas, of course. The amount of extra mobs that gets pulled out is dependent on the room size of the area, and the strength of the mobs, of course, depends on the relative strength of the normal critters.

Gold drops wouldn't change, either, but perhaps talisman drop rates could!

Cynlael

Imperian has bosses that require multiple people to take down, all with different strategies that are rather akin to how WoW bosses set up, and all requiring effort to summon. Calling instances a 'bad idea' is rather silly. They're not a bad idea at all. What would make them a bad idea, is if the way they're accessed is nearly non-existent (such as Aetolia's where you simply run through a portal like in WoW)

Really, your idea is literally what instances are, except for the fact you're (I presume) not getting the mobs to yourselves, after 'bringing them out'. (Which you really should, if you're forced to go through all the trouble to actually bring them out, assuming it's difficult to do.)

What makes a bad instance: One that requires no effort to get into, is soloable, and is only gone through because other places are bashed out.

What would make a good instance: One that has quests to get into (basically what the talisman acquisition is), is actually well planned (mobs who blow half your health off in 1 hit do not count as 'well planned', sorry Aetolia), and finally, one that can't be solo'd by someone just because they have artifacts oozing from every orifice.   (Your [ @Anedhel ] idea basically covers -all- of this. Other than the fact that if some artiwhore group are spying on you doing it, they can just come in and sweep the mobs away from you when they're activated.)

As for loot, you could also go the way Imperian went and have the bosses drop temporary artifacts (I think they're all only level 1, so nothing astronomical) which last about 3 RL days. Or you can make more things akin to the relics (albeit non-PK, if the entire thing is made for people who want to PVE) that have similar effects, such as increasing gold gain from mobs etc.

Just my two cents.

Jacen

I really don't see the problem with instances. Its always struck me funny how you have to fight ( in the "put a lot of effort in" sense, not the PvP sense) to get to do the most boring thing in this game. Bashing zones are resources that are in demand out of necessity, not because it's a desirable game element.

Short quest to get in, zero gold drops, mediocre xp, reasonable cool down period (hour-ish). Don't see the problem with that.

Blujixapug

My problem with instancing isn't that it's "single player", but that it's such a gamey mechanic. One of the cool things about the way the world exists is that you can set up a totem in any room. Drop a flamed blanket. Kite in Zsarachnor. Splice a wormhole. Gank someone. Drop a propaganda letter. Evade in and secret forty cupcakes into someone's inventory. Pike a head. It's a sandbox.

Instanced locations are like, no, this isn't really part of the world, this is a special little temporary place specifically set aside for this one bashing encounter. Only people who want to bash may enter here, and only via the specific method preordained by the mechanics.

I get the appeal of instances, because they're complex encounters designed to be challenging and fun, and it's difficult to design such a thing without heavily managing variables (which seems to be one of the two points of instances; the other is that anyone can participate without having to wait for the NPC to respawn). I would like more cool, strategic boss fights. But I think doing it with intances is taking things down the wrong path.

I suspect that by placing Icons on Nishnatoba, the goal was to minimise variables in Icon battles too, and make them 'fair'. But that backfired, and their separation from the rest of the game world is one of the reasons Icon fights are less enjoyed than CTFs.

Hellen

I've got to put in my dislike for instanced areas as well, but I will say that a single location that is instanced with a really good back story as to why it is instanced would be neat. Maybe Aeon was fiddling with time there. More than one and the illusion breaks, though.

Klendathu

There is at least one instanced area I know of, other than the deep sea diving, and it's pretty dull (wave after wave of aggressive creatures).

Shirszae

Pretty dull as in, bashing in every other area? Or somehow duller? At least there I suppose there is no shortage of mobs. So its still a plus.