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Flagging as "Ready to Roleplay"

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  • JhaeliJhaeli Member Posts: 541 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2014

    The complication I see with the points system suggestion is that it continues to reward an elitist attitude. What about for those starting out/wanting to try/etc.? Would you stick to those with higher points or would you actively seek out those with lower points to give them opportunities to earn points?

    The whole point of a RPWHO/RP FLAG is to help players who are less experienced and/or have a small pool of people to roleplay with. Most experienced roleplayers already know where to go and/or who to talk to and a points system simply rewards the experienced.

    It's not going to be (or shouldn't be, at least) a blatant "flag" that breaks immersion, in the same way that flags for which city you're in (visible on SCORE or HONOURS) doesn't break immersion. And it doesn't mean spontaneous roleplay won't happen, in the same way that removing yourself from (or never flagging) SPARWHO doesn't mean you're not open to a spar. This is just an additional method for roleplayers to find other roleplayers, addressing an obvious need in the community.

    ETA: Also, the current points system isn't about rewards, it's about punishment. Points are knocked when you're blatantly disturbing others, etc. It's not intended to be a positive thing, afaik.

    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man." 

    JulesNimHalosMathonwy
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2014

    Even though Sarapis noticed and addressed it, people are freaking out even more than they were now that the term "flag" came up, and once the forums latches onto something like that, well, it's a good thing it's his game...  Also, as Nim pointed out less directly, Halos' story, while funny, really is silly.  Big S does a lot of things that modify power structures and/or the way people interact which the player base initially freaks out about, but I wonder how many people are generally quite pleased that the changes have been made (the obvious example being guilds, pretty glad I wasn't here for those).  When moods didn't work out (even I was wondering what those were all about), they were modified.  I'd think of this as a way for your character to communicate more readily that you need some time to relax (or that you're in an energetic, let's do this mood), especially for those characters who get bombarded whenever they log in, and as noted, the flags don't have to be so glaringly OOC, and would probably reflect some sort of mood (in a general sense, not necessarily the game mechanic).  I hate bothering people without realizing I'm bothering them (much better to know I'm bothering them and do it anyway), so that's an advantage as well.

    JhaeliHalos
  • JhaeliJhaeli Member Posts: 541 @ - Epic Achaean

    People need to stop visualizing it as a person furiously waving around a big blue flag and think of it more as said person putting on a blue shirt. 

    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man." 

    JulesShirszaeTrilliana
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yeah, RP is already kind of elitist (not that I mind so much, and hey, of course the best want to play with the best), but we don't need to enshrine it in a points system :(

    JhaeliMathonwy
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:

    Rolepoints is an awful system and should probably just be deleted.

    Probably just changed in terms of what it's called. Since it's primarily used as a measure of admin punishment, change it to 'restriction level' or something. This would fit with it thematically restricting XP gain at 'low' levels and restricting channel access at 'higher' levels.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    SarapisHalosTharvis
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2014
    Since people tend to talk a lot through tells (without being in the same room) anyway, I was really thinking of some sort of hint in the tells, which could vary, but would make it clear that someone was busy/tired/preoccupied.  This would stretch the idea of tells to include at least some tone and inflection (which I actually think has already just been done?) and when the initiator sent a tell, he'd get a automatic message from the receiver that they'd received the tell but seemed to be <insert elegant, innocuous phrasing here>.  

    EDIT:  also not against an RPWHO, especially for those looking for the people who DO want to interact.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    Since people tend to talk a lot through tells (without being in the same room) anyway, I was really thinking of some sort of hint in the tells, which could vary, but would make it clear that someone was busy/tired/preoccupied.  This would stretch the idea of tells to include at least some tone and inflection (which I actually think has already just been done?) and when the initiator sent a tell, he'd get a automatic message from the receiver that they'd received the tell but seemed to be <insert elegant, innocuous phrasing here>.  

    This is already doable with the expressiveness very recently, yeah (not the auto reply bit)

    Someone tells you, "Hi there!"

    tell someone *distractedly What?

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    ShirszaeNimJhaeli
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2014
    Yes, and people can also just say "I'm busy".  I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's working out for people, because of the intricacies of human interaction and sense of obligation.  Basically, people *can*, but usually won't if there's no clear, guilt-free way for them to do so.

    EDIT:  In fact, an even better system would be that the initial tell wouldn't go through, but the teller would receive the message indicating that the receiver is somewhat busy at the moment.  
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Quantifying roleplaying is like rating video games - very, very hard to be objective about, difficult to find metrics for (usually I just go for fun/time, but some people are concerned with silly things like graphics or prose), and easy to play favorites (see: any reviewer who is incapable of giving a mainstream game a sub-8 rating).

    It's not a terrible idea but it's functionally an RP powerlevel system, except roleplaying is super subjective and I give anyone who has fun and helps others do the same a 10/10 all the time every time, even if they're roleplaying something utterly cringeworthy.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    .  Basically, people *can*, but usually won't if there's no clear, guilt-free way for them to do so.

    EDIT:  In fact, an even better system would be that the initial tell wouldn't go through, but the teller would receive the message indicating that the receiver is somewhat busy at the moment.  

    TELLSOFF?

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Speaking of tone and inflection, it's hard to say this without sounding like an ass (so here's my disclaimer), but it's already been covered why that's inadequate.  

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2014
    Jules said:

    Speaking of tone and inflection, it's hard to say this without sounding like an ass (so here's my disclaimer), but it's already been covered why that's inadequate.  

    Except it is not. You want something that achieves exactly the same purpose. You can even customize the message people see when you have tells set off, so its almost word by word what you are describing.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Bluef
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This debate is pushing us over into an area of very blurred IC/OOC lines, and I don't like it. Is there no situation where I would use my gem/cham tat, but also be open to RP? 

    This whole "no enforced roleplay, don't care about using OOC information IC, don't care if you talk about OOC stuff IC as long as no one is forced to hear you" thing bothers me too.

    In a room off the main drag of Serpentis Blvd.

    Okk: Man, Hashan sucks so bad. Don't even know why I log in sometimes.
    Jacen: Yeah, know what you mean
    Okk: In all the MUDs and even the IRE games I've played, I've never been in a city as shitty as this
    -- derpie Naga evades in to spy --
    Jacen: Know what man? We should stage a coup. Lotus strongarms Hashan, declares martial law.
    Jacen: Kill anyone that gets in our way.
    Okk: We'll kill anyone that steps outside their Househall.
    Okk: Its a plan!
    Okk: Gotta run, I'll be back later.


    Overdramatic, sure. But a totally plausible situation, for people to be unknowingly spied upon and then speak in an OOC fashion that doesn't appear to be OOC at all.

    image
    Tharvis
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    There's a very good chance the person still wants or needs to be able to receive tells (this would be especially true for the burned out city management types).  It was covered earlier in the thread, and whether they like the concept I'm talking about here or not, most people aren't buying the "we already have tellsoff" solution.  

  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    There's a very good chance the person still wants or needs to be able to receive tells (this would be especially true for the burned out city management types).  It was covered earlier in the thread, and whether they like the concept I'm talking about here or not, most people aren't buying the "we already have tellsoff" solution.  

    ALLOW TELLS

    Usage:

       ALLOWTELLS LIST

       ALLOWTELLS ADD <name>

       ALLOWTELLS REMOVE <name>

       ALLOWTELLS REMOVE ALL

    You can do this. Just maintain your allowtells list actively. Likewise, you can put up a TELLSOFF message in CONFIG that asks people to simply MSG you if it is an urgent city issue, otherwise to leave you alone for <whateverreason>. 

    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    I take it all back.  What were we talking about again?  

    Halos
  • CarmellCarmell Eastern WashingtonMember Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    I'm just waiting for @Halos to turn on his RP flag so that I don't have to send him blocks of text.   Because I can't get him to stop for 5 minutes to discuss paths with him.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have no issue with such a system existing to aid novices create early connections with individuals in order to build their RP experience and support their character development. 

    However, I believe that list is already in place - in Houses and in cities, by virtue of their leadership and the high-ranking playerbase present within them, even if that may not cover the "in-the-moment" designation that has been mentioned previously in this thread. I think that while RPWHO sounds promising on paper, it will have very little/not the sort of influence that people seem to think it will, or it will degrade into a sparsely used function a la SPARWHO unless there is explicit incentive involved in tagging yourself in it aside from prestige or purely functional reasons.

    I say this not to shit in this topic's cornflakes - I think it is a good idea to focus on ways of promoting roleplay for new players since the experience is where Achaea shines over its mechanical aspects, imo - but to promote alternate ways of thinking about such a concept that may not involve a clunky flag-based system to implement.

    I certainly see no harm in giving this a try, at least in the short term. Metrics should be able to demonstrate the rate of feature adoption quite readily within 2 or 3 months, and if it works, then it works.
    Jacen
  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Halos said:

    tl;dr The topic of this thread isn't whether a list or flag should be made for people who want to play "in character". Everyone is in character (or should be) upon login, whether or not they are actively "roleplaying". This isn't the issue. This topic is about whether a list should be made to help people who are actively looking for instances of RP interaction.


    If it's put this way, and made clear that it's intended this way, then I have far fewer problems with the system.

    I don't know, I probably was leaping at conclusions and rushing in without a lot of thought (not like I really do that... ight), but when worded this way, I feel a little more silly about my previous comments (not the first time, probably not the last).

    HalosTharvis
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    However, I believe that list is already in place - in Houses and in cities, by virtue of their leadership and the high-ranking playerbase present within them, even if that may not cover the "in-the-moment" designation that has been mentioned previously in this thread.

    I think that while RPWHO sounds promising on paper, it will have very little/not the sort of influence that people seem to think it will, or it will degrade into a sparsely used function a la SPARWHO unless there is explicit incentive involved in tagging yourself in it aside from prestige or purely functional reasons.

    Are you implying that only people who have high city/house ranks or leadership roles are willing roleplayers? Are you further implying that all of them are? This is so elitist I literally died.

    Also, SPARWHO might be seldom used, but it fulfills its purpose beautifully. I don't know what incentive there should be, because now you're getting into rewarding roleplaying, and that could be a great thing but there is unfortunately no metric that the administration has considered reasonable for doing that.

    ShirszaeJarrodTharvisJhaeli
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    unless there is explicit incentive involved in tagging yourself in it aside from prestige or purely functional reasons.

    This right here says to me you're not in the right mindset to address this change. Roleplaying well is not done because you get a reward for it in the game. You do it because you enjoy playing your role and playing it well, and you enjoy interacting with others in that role. It's a self-fulfilling action in terms of, if you're playing your role well, interacting with other people playing their role well, you will most likely enjoy the results regardless of what happens, because it's a tangible change to the world of your character.

    The whole idea of this change is taking the situations that already exist, where you sometimes sporadically, sometimes intentionally, interact with others and play your role well. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes you get a surprisingly good conversation, sometimes you get told "Lol what are u talking about?" This wouldn't remove those situations. Those who enjoy going out and poking at random people can still do that if a sort of toggle is implemented. This change will simply create a list of people who can flip on a switch that says to the world, "Hey, I'm here, I'm focused, I'm in my role, and if you're in that same mindset and want to interact in some form or another, bring it on."

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    ShirszaeShibumiHalosJhaeli
  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,469 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2014

    Nim said:
    Daeir said:
    However, I believe that list is already in place - in Houses and in cities, by virtue of their leadership and the high-ranking playerbase present within them, even if that may not cover the "in-the-moment" designation that has been mentioned previously in this thread.


    Are you implying that only people who have high city/house ranks or leadership roles are willing roleplayers? Are you further implying that all of them are? This is so elitist I literally died.

    @Nim, I think Daeir is just emphasizing the fact that orgs can and have functioned as the primary venues for RP in Achaea for several years. Yes, anyone in an org should be able to easily check HWHO or CWHO to find like-minded people to talk and RP with. Accounts from Housed newbies point to the notion that this isn't always the case (and might be less so now that they aren't landing in the cozy arms of Houses straight from the trial anymore).

    @Daeir People get busy. Whilst city and House leaders are largely responsible for the broader direction of roleplay for people in their orgs, they aren't always available to sit down and have good a old fashioned meet and greet with every novice. Other people just login to bash, some people spend much of their time fishing on ships, and still others are NoTers looking for the next gank. Leaders can say "hey everyone stop what you are doing and let's RP with our newbies" (instances like this are great) but they aren't always around and even when this happens there are going to be mixed results. It's a big game and there's a lot to do and a lot going on. 

    A newbie looking to get down and dirty with some RP won't know this. They might not have the presence of mind (or ability) to Farsee or Scry or Sense or or Seek or Presences or Window first. Without deathsight up, they might not realize that twelve of their citymates are in the process of dying in a raid and the idea that some 18 year old wants to have fun typing out their feelings and actions at them like a robot for an hour is the most ludicrous thing imaginable at this particular point and time. 

    In other words, I agree with Jarrod when he emphasizes one of the pros of having an RPWHO that:

    Jarrod said:

    This change will simply create a list of people who can flip on a switch that says to the world, "Hey, I'm here, I'm focused, I'm in my role, and if you're in that same mindset and want to interact in some form or another, bring it on."

    edit: spelling. Clarity.



    Jhaeli
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Halos said:

    @Nim, I think Daeir is just emphasizing the fact that orgs can and have functioned as the primary venues for RP in Achaea for several years. Yes, anyone in an org should be able to easily check HWHO or CWHO to find like-minded people to talk and RP with.

    I believe in objective, reasonable discussion, and while I agree that the quoted part of the text is how it should be, I would like to present an additional counter argument.

    @Cain.

    That is all.

    (yes I know he's not Mhaldorian anymore, shh just let me have this)

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2014

    I am simply speaking from personal experience in introducing similar systems within other projects that I work on. They tend to have a chronically low long-term adoption rate if not incentivized or highly publicized. Neither am I arguing that RP -must- be incentivized in order for it to be a part of the game. I am saying that the concept of an RPWHO function will work only so long as it is regularly adopted by people who are willing to provide those experiences - innate enjoyment of the experience itself is an ephemeral incentive in this regard and is likely to falter over time from what I have seen. Otherwise, the function falls into disarray and we are left back at square one regarding methods of getting people involved in RP again, except this time, it becomes an issue of encouraging people to actually tag themselves as willing participants under the RPWHO system.

    This is a good short-term fix for the issue, but I think avenues of introducing new players into credible and interesting characters more quickly is a far more organic and less systems-oriented approach to dealing with this issue which has long-term benefits for the game in other areas as well.

    Take it as you will.

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Literally begging you not to do this, for the reasons already listed (granted, I've only read about the first page of this thread). If anything, RP should be opt-out rather than opt-in, but I'd hate to see that almost as much. "Willing to RPz" should be the default position in Achaea, else it's just another MUD.


    One thing that might be worth mentioning to n00bs in some way is that anybody with any level of responsibility in a City/House/Order is "Willing to RP" (even if that's to ICly tell them to piss-off-I'm-busy). Not that I'm suggesting that Aides want to spend their entire life in the realms being approached by newbies looking for a special evening.


    Another avenue of this is What does Willing to RP mean? Please allow me to demonstrate:

    Sylvance is stood here, Ready to Roleplay.
    Newbie: "Greetings, fair damsel. Come hither, that I might convey you to the Ram's Horn for gambling and banter."

    Sylvance: "I'm good, but thanks for the offer."

    Newbie: "Okay. Then let me regale you with tales of my prowess."
    Sylvance: "Eh?"

    Newbie: "Okay. Well I have news of a nerfarious plot! Would you care to help me unravel it?"

    Sylvance: "Wat?"

    Newbie tells you, "((wtf? it sz ur willin 2 rp))


    The flag seems to me to imply that I'd be willing to engage in any avenue of RP that interests the other person. That is never going to be the case. Equally, I can think of few situations when a person is not open to any form of RP whatsoever. Part of getting somebody to RP with you is finding the right bait. If you don't have any bait in common, then there's no real reason to be RPing. If you do, then it will happen naturally.

    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JhaeliJhaeli Member Posts: 541 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sylvance said:

    (granted, I've only read about the first page of this thread). 

    As Bluef said, fix this and read the rest of the thread. It's really not what you're thinking it is. Halos makes some excellent points on this page six alone.

    "Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man." 

    BluefAchimrstMathonwyPraxides
This discussion has been closed.