Flagging as "Ready to Roleplay"

Jules

Even though Sarapis noticed and addressed it, people are freaking out even more than they were now that the term "flag" came up, and once the forums latches onto something like that, well, it's a good thing it's his game...  Also, as Nim pointed out less directly, Halos' story, while funny, really is silly.  Big S does a lot of things that modify power structures and/or the way people interact which the player base initially freaks out about, but I wonder how many people are generally quite pleased that the changes have been made (the obvious example being guilds, pretty glad I wasn't here for those).  When moods didn't work out (even I was wondering what those were all about), they were modified.  I'd think of this as a way for your character to communicate more readily that you need some time to relax (or that you're in an energetic, let's do this mood), especially for those characters who get bombarded whenever they log in, and as noted, the flags don't have to be so glaringly OOC, and would probably reflect some sort of mood (in a general sense, not necessarily the game mechanic).  I hate bothering people without realizing I'm bothering them (much better to know I'm bothering them and do it anyway), so that's an advantage as well.

Jhaeli

People need to stop visualizing it as a person furiously waving around a big blue flag and think of it more as said person putting on a blue shirt. 

Jules

Yeah, RP is already kind of elitist (not that I mind so much, and hey, of course the best want to play with the best), but we don't need to enshrine it in a points system

Jarrod

I think RP is one of the things that it's dangerous for the health of the game to quantify, by using role points more heavily. As Jhaeli said, it leads to an elitist attitude, and prior expectations whenever you interact with someone if you quantify them ahead of time. It also will likely lead to less interactions for the people a toggle system would most benefit. Naturally, people want to RP with the 'notable' RPers, which leads the them getting ranked higher, which means more people want to interact with them, which makes their points higher, etc. People who aren't sure where to approach for RP will naturally have lower scores, meaning fewer people will interact with them in general.

I also don't think the toggle it should have anything to do with IC. There shouldn't be an associated pose you can see IC, it should purely be an OOC thing you can check with RPWHO (similar to leaderwho), that bypasses gems and doesn't respect chameleon tattoos. No location information associated, simply a list of names that are toggled on. Foremost, a visible IC indicator once again precludes those who are trying to branch out. If you think, "Oh, I'd like to try to interact with an enemy today," it's unreasonable to wander through their city looking for people in the proper pose, that would be hugely immersion breaking. On the flip side, knowing X, Y, and Z are 'looking for roleplay' means you can sense them real quick, figure out where they are, and come up with a justifiable reason for walking to where they are to interact.

Sarapis

Rolepoints is an awful system and should probably just be deleted.

Jarrod

Sarapis said:

Rolepoints is an awful system and should probably just be deleted.

Probably just changed in terms of what it's called. Since it's primarily used as a measure of admin punishment, change it to 'restriction level' or something. This would fit with it thematically restricting XP gain at 'low' levels and restricting channel access at 'higher' levels.

Jules

Since people tend to talk a lot through tells (without being in the same room) anyway, I was really thinking of some sort of hint in the tells, which could vary, but would make it clear that someone was busy/tired/preoccupied.  This would stretch the idea of tells to include at least some tone and inflection (which I actually think has already just been done?) and when the initiator sent a tell, he'd get a automatic message from the receiver that they'd received the tell but seemed to be <insert elegant, innocuous phrasing here>.  

EDIT:  also not against an RPWHO, especially for those looking for the people who DO want to interact.

Jarrod

Jules said:

Since people tend to talk a lot through tells (without being in the same room) anyway, I was really thinking of some sort of hint in the tells, which could vary, but would make it clear that someone was busy/tired/preoccupied.  This would stretch the idea of tells to include at least some tone and inflection (which I actually think has already just been done?) and when the initiator sent a tell, he'd get a automatic message from the receiver that they'd received the tell but seemed to be <insert elegant, innocuous phrasing here>.  

This is already doable with the expressiveness very recently, yeah (not the auto reply bit)

Someone tells you, "Hi there!"

tell someone *distractedly What?

Jules

Yes, and people can also just say "I'm busy".  I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's working out for people, because of the intricacies of human interaction and sense of obligation.  Basically, people *can*, but usually won't if there's no clear, guilt-free way for them to do so.

EDIT:  In fact, an even better system would be that the initial tell wouldn't go through, but the teller would receive the message indicating that the receiver is somewhat busy at the moment.  

Nim

Quantifying roleplaying is like rating video games - very, very hard to be objective about, difficult to find metrics for (usually I just go for fun/time, but some people are concerned with silly things like graphics or prose), and easy to play favorites (see: any reviewer who is incapable of giving a mainstream game a sub-8 rating).

It's not a terrible idea but it's functionally an RP powerlevel system, except roleplaying is super subjective and I give anyone who has fun and helps others do the same a 10/10 all the time every time, even if they're roleplaying something utterly cringeworthy.

Shirszae

Jules said:

.  Basically, people *can*, but usually won't if there's no clear, guilt-free way for them to do so.

EDIT:  In fact, an even better system would be that the initial tell wouldn't go through, but the teller would receive the message indicating that the receiver is somewhat busy at the moment.  

TELLSOFF?

Jules

Speaking of tone and inflection, it's hard to say this without sounding like an ass (so here's my disclaimer), but it's already been covered why that's inadequate.  

Shirszae

Jules said:

Speaking of tone and inflection, it's hard to say this without sounding like an ass (so here's my disclaimer), but it's already been covered why that's inadequate.  

Except it is not. You want something that achieves exactly the same purpose. You can even customize the message people see when you have tells set off, so its almost word by word what you are describing.

Jacen

This debate is pushing us over into an area of very blurred IC/OOC lines, and I don't like it. Is there no situation where I would use my gem/cham tat, but also be open to RP? 

This whole "no enforced roleplay, don't care about using OOC information IC, don't care if you talk about OOC stuff IC as long as no one is forced to hear you" thing bothers me too.

In a room off the main drag of Serpentis Blvd.

Okk: Man, Hashan sucks so bad. Don't even know why I log in sometimes.

Jacen: Yeah, know what you mean

Okk: In all the MUDs and even the IRE games I've played, I've never been in a city as shitty as this

-- derpie Naga evades in to spy --

Jacen: Know what man? We should stage a coup. Lotus strongarms Hashan, declares martial law.

Jacen: Kill anyone that gets in our way.

Okk: We'll kill anyone that steps outside their Househall.

Okk: Its a plan!

Okk: Gotta run, I'll be back later.

Overdramatic, sure. But a totally plausible situation, for people to be unknowingly spied upon and then speak in an OOC fashion that doesn't appear to be OOC at all.

Jules

There's a very good chance the person still wants or needs to be able to receive tells (this would be especially true for the burned out city management types).  It was covered earlier in the thread, and whether they like the concept I'm talking about here or not, most people aren't buying the "we already have tellsoff" solution.  

Bluef

Jules said:

There's a very good chance the person still wants or needs to be able to receive tells (this would be especially true for the burned out city management types).  It was covered earlier in the thread, and whether they like the concept I'm talking about here or not, most people aren't buying the "we already have tellsoff" solution.  

ALLOW TELLS

Usage:

   ALLOWTELLS LIST

   ALLOWTELLS ADD <name>

   ALLOWTELLS REMOVE <name>

   ALLOWTELLS REMOVE ALL

You can do this. Just maintain your allowtells list actively. Likewise, you can put up a TELLSOFF message in CONFIG that asks people to simply MSG you if it is an urgent city issue, otherwise to leave you alone for <whateverreason>. 

Jules

I take it all back.  What were we talking about again?  

Halos

Daeir said:

I feel this is a bad idea.

From my understanding, Achaea was supposed to be an RP enforced environment (hence why rolepoints exist [even though they are never used]), in that you are your character unless explicitly stated otherwise. Thus, the notion of "RPing" is essentially the notion of playing the game as it is originally intended to be played.

I do not feel like this sort of thing should be optional, and I don't think that simply providing a flag for people who are actually playing the game properly to see who.. else is also playing the game properly will do anything but create yet another barrier for immersion that a lot of people are going to filter out with clientside scripts anyway.

While I generally agree, the bolded makes me feel like we're all talking at cross purposes.

Based on the OP, Sarapis just wants an easier way made available to newbies so they can find easier access to roleplay. A publically viewable list that you can put yourself on if you want to advertise that you want to RP. Quality (and crappy) RP will continue happening through multiple alternative avenues regardless of a whether an RPWHO exists.

Further, when Sarapis says 'RP', I think he's talking about discrete instances of person-to-person exchange. An active session of focused, in-character, non-PK interaction (small scale or large scale). RP "sessions" if you will.

You aren't always doing this. Nobody is. Hardly anyone concentrates on emoting or talking while bashing because it doesn't lend itself as an ideal setting for it. That's a bashing session. Hardly anyone concentrates on emoting or talking while fighting. That's a spar/duel/gankage. But this doesn't mean that they aren't in character while they do these things.

A lot of people in this thread are championing and debating the nitty gritty of RP and sundry concepts, such as whether it's an option to develop character roles or adhere to consistent lifestyle practices or build broad story arcs. That's cool. Those things are very specific and important to building a convincing character but none of them happen all at once. They happen through many single instances of RP with different people over time. Let's help newbies find those instances (whether through an RPWHO or some other means).

tl;dr The topic of this thread isn't whether a list or flag should be made for people who want to play "in character". Everyone is in character (or should be) upon login, whether or not they are actively "roleplaying". This isn't the issue. This topic is about whether a list should be made to help people who are actively looking for instances of RP interaction.

Carmell

I'm just waiting for @Halos to turn on his RP flag so that I don't have to send him blocks of text.   Because I can't get him to stop for 5 minutes to discuss paths with him.

Naverre

Halos said:

tl;dr The topic of this thread isn't whether a list or flag should be made for people who want to play "in character". Everyone is in character (or should be) upon login, whether or not they are actively "roleplaying". This isn't the issue. This topic is about whether a list should be made to help people who are actively looking for instances of RP interaction.

If it's put this way, and made clear that it's intended this way, then I have far fewer problems with the system.

I don't know, I probably was leaping at conclusions and rushing in without a lot of thought (not like I really do that... ight), but when worded this way, I feel a little more silly about my previous comments (not the first time, probably not the last).

Nim

Daeir said:

However, I believe that list is already in place - in Houses and in cities, by virtue of their leadership and the high-ranking playerbase present within them, even if that may not cover the "in-the-moment" designation that has been mentioned previously in this thread.

I think that while RPWHO sounds promising on paper, it will have very little/not the sort of influence that people seem to think it will, or it will degrade into a sparsely used function a la SPARWHO unless there is explicit incentive involved in tagging yourself in it aside from prestige or purely functional reasons.

Are you implying that only people who have high city/house ranks or leadership roles are willing roleplayers? Are you further implying that all of them are? This is so elitist I literally died.

Also, SPARWHO might be seldom used, but it fulfills its purpose beautifully. I don't know what incentive there should be, because now you're getting into rewarding roleplaying, and that could be a great thing but there is unfortunately no metric that the administration has considered reasonable for doing that.

Jarrod

Daeir said:

unless there is explicit incentive involved in tagging yourself in it aside from prestige or purely functional reasons.

This right here says to me you're not in the right mindset to address this change. Roleplaying well is not done because you get a reward for it in the game. You do it because you enjoy playing your role and playing it well, and you enjoy interacting with others in that role. It's a self-fulfilling action in terms of, if you're playing your role well, interacting with other people playing their role well, you will most likely enjoy the results regardless of what happens, because it's a tangible change to the world of your character.

The whole idea of this change is taking the situations that already exist, where you sometimes sporadically, sometimes intentionally, interact with others and play your role well. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes you get a surprisingly good conversation, sometimes you get told "Lol what are u talking about?" This wouldn't remove those situations. Those who enjoy going out and poking at random people can still do that if a sort of toggle is implemented. This change will simply create a list of people who can flip on a switch that says to the world, "Hey, I'm here, I'm focused, I'm in my role, and if you're in that same mindset and want to interact in some form or another, bring it on."

Halos

Nim said:

Daeir said:

However, I believe that list is already in place - in Houses and in cities, by virtue of their leadership and the high-ranking playerbase present within them, even if that may not cover the "in-the-moment" designation that has been mentioned previously in this thread.

Are you implying that only people who have high city/house ranks or leadership roles are willing roleplayers? Are you further implying that all of them are? This is so elitist I literally died.

@Nim, I think Daeir is just emphasizing the fact that orgs can and have functioned as the primary venues for RP in Achaea for several years. Yes, anyone in an org should be able to easily check HWHO or CWHO to find like-minded people to talk and RP with. Accounts from Housed newbies point to the notion that this isn't always the case (and might be less so now that they aren't landing in the cozy arms of Houses straight from the trial anymore).

@Daeir People get busy. Whilst city and House leaders are largely responsible for the broader direction of roleplay for people in their orgs, they aren't always available to sit down and have good a old fashioned meet and greet with every novice. Other people just login to bash, some people spend much of their time fishing on ships, and still others are NoTers looking for the next gank. Leaders can say "hey everyone stop what you are doing and let's RP with our newbies" (instances like this are great) but they aren't always around and even when this happens there are going to be mixed results. It's a big game and there's a lot to do and a lot going on. 

A newbie looking to get down and dirty with some RP won't know this. They might not have the presence of mind (or ability) to Farsee or Scry or Sense or or Seek or Presences or Window first. Without deathsight up, they might not realize that twelve of their citymates are in the process of dying in a raid and the idea that some 18 year old wants to have fun typing out their feelings and actions at them like a robot for an hour is the most ludicrous thing imaginable at this particular point and time. 

In other words, I agree with Jarrod when he emphasizes one of the pros of having an RPWHO that:

Jarrod said:

This change will simply create a list of people who can flip on a switch that says to the world, "Hey, I'm here, I'm focused, I'm in my role, and if you're in that same mindset and want to interact in some form or another, bring it on."

edit: spelling. Clarity.

Nim

Halos said:

@Nim, I think Daeir is just emphasizing the fact that orgs can and have functioned as the primary venues for RP in Achaea for several years. Yes, anyone in an org should be able to easily check HWHO or CWHO to find like-minded people to talk and RP with.

I believe in objective, reasonable discussion, and while I agree that the quoted part of the text is how it should be, I would like to present an additional counter argument.

@Cain.

That is all.

(yes I know he's not Mhaldorian anymore, shh just let me have this)

Sylvance

Literally begging you not to do this, for the reasons already listed (granted, I've only read about the first page of this thread). If anything, RP should be opt-out rather than opt-in, but I'd hate to see that almost as much. "Willing to RPz" should be the default position in Achaea, else it's just another MUD.

One thing that might be worth mentioning to n00bs in some way is that anybody with any level of responsibility in a City/House/Order is "Willing to RP" (even if that's to ICly tell them to piss-off-I'm-busy). Not that I'm suggesting that Aides want to spend their entire life in the realms being approached by newbies looking for a special evening.

Another avenue of this is What does Willing to RP mean? Please allow me to demonstrate:

Sylvance is stood here, Ready to Roleplay.
Newbie: "Greetings, fair damsel. Come hither, that I might convey you to the Ram's Horn for gambling and banter."

Sylvance: "I'm good, but thanks for the offer."

Newbie: "Okay. Then let me regale you with tales of my prowess."
Sylvance: "Eh?"

Newbie: "Okay. Well I have news of a nerfarious plot! Would you care to help me unravel it?"

Sylvance: "Wat?"

Newbie tells you, "((wtf? it sz ur willin 2 rp))

The flag seems to me to imply that I'd be willing to engage in any avenue of RP that interests the other person. That is never going to be the case. Equally, I can think of few situations when a person is not open to any form of RP whatsoever. Part of getting somebody to RP with you is finding the right bait. If you don't have any bait in common, then there's no real reason to be RPing. If you do, then it will happen naturally.

Bluef

Sylvance said:

Literally begging you not to do this, for the reasons already listed (granted, I've only read about the first page of this thread). If anything, RP should be opt-out rather than opt-in, but I'd hate to see that almost as much. "Willing to RPz" should be the default position in Achaea, else it's just another MUD.

One thing that might be worth mentioning to n00bs in some way is that anybody with any level of responsibility in a City/House/Order is "Willing to RP" (even if that's to ICly tell them to piss-off-I'm-busy). Not that I'm suggesting that Aides want to spend their entire life in the realms being approached by newbies looking for a special evening.

Another avenue of this is What does Willing to RP mean? Please allow me to demonstrate:

Sylvance is stood here, Ready to Roleplay.
Newbie: "Greetings, fair damsel. Come hither, that I might convey you to the Ram's Horn for gambling and banter."

Sylvance: "I'm good, but thanks for the offer."

Newbie: "Okay. Then let me regale you with tales of my prowess."
Sylvance: "Eh?"

Newbie: "Okay. Well I have news of a nerfarious plot! Would you care to help me unravel it?"

Sylvance: "Wat?"

Newbie tells you, "((wtf? it sz ur willin 2 rp))

The flag seems to me to imply that I'd be willing to engage in any avenue of RP that interests the other person. That is never going to be the case. Equally, I can think of few situations when a person is not open to any form of RP whatsoever. Part of getting somebody to RP with you is finding the right bait. If you don't have any bait in common, then there's no real reason to be RPing. If you do, then it will happen naturally.

Read the other five pages of the thread - trust me, it's worth it. I was really against this idea when it was first introduced and now I think it might be a really neat way to identify people looking to establish roleplay relationships with others. 

I say relationships rather than connections because that is essentially what is built when you roleplay with someone - a connection that lasts the length of your character's memory and life. For example:

Once a long time ago @Hypnos came to Bluef when she was the Prophetess of the Spirit Walkers and going through a terrible time of it in Hashan. He did a small ceremony and gave her an amber vial filled with some of his soul essence to empower her. The two of them had never really been close IC before that, but from that moment onward they were bloodsworn besties and for RL years they've roleplayed a shared connection through that one tiny roleplayed moment and vial. 

To me this flag has the potential to create 1,000,000 stories like this one. All new connections and relationships that will give way to other RP stories and new connections over time. The best stories in Achaea are the ones we make for ourselves. 

Jhaeli

Sylvance said:

(granted, I've only read about the first page of this thread). 

As Bluef said, fix this and read the rest of the thread. It's really not what you're thinking it is. Halos makes some excellent points on this page six alone.

Sarapis

And it's in. Now folks have to use it, or it'll be worthless, so get to it!