Flagging as "Ready to Roleplay"

Nim

@Sarapis: They're worried that if you RPOFF, that will suddenly mean you are OOC, immune to IC interaction and consequences, and no one will want to roleplay with you unless you RPON first, but then crazies will want to roleplay with you if you RPON so everything is terrible.

they are very silly

Mithridates

Mithridates stands here, clearly unwilling to talk to you.

Jacen

Yeah, as apprehensive as I am, and as much as I've posted against this topic and your points, I do appreciate the transparency you've brought to the forums. Its better to know about and disagree with a new policy than be blindsided by it!

Nim

Already possible with the pose system (I think).

Sarapis

Taraus said:

* Yes, it may well also be a PK game, a sailing game, a crafting game, et cetera, but when you do those things, you're also assuming the role of a fictional character and doing those things.

Sure, and equally, when you play Pacman or Civilization, you're assuming the role of a fictional character and doing those things, but I think looking at roleplaying as simply controlling a character and doing things waters down the actual meaning of roleplaying in this context to near-meaninglessness. 

Achimrst

We, should ban alts. Just sayin.

Taraus

But that's exactly what roleplaying comes down to - assuming and controlling a character. The references to crafting, sailing, etc, were your own, not mine - I was using them in a particular context there, not as a stand-alone comment.

The truth is, people are gonna water the concept down as much as they want to, regardless of what peripheral systems of flagging and registries exist. Depth of character and involvement in RP is and always will be up to the player, and their level of intent and interest both.

Lyndee

Yeah. I didn't think you mean a literal flag. Mostly don't want it to change appearance in QL/to show on other WHOs, etc. I see it as a crutch to help new kids out who really want to use it, and I could see value in that. But I think that (as others have elucidated) making it too obvious or in-your-face could have negative impacts on spontaneous roleplay culture.

I am mostly cautious because I don't want to encourage any perception that EVEN IF someone hates RP (wut) and isn't RP-on or w/e, others (including newbies) aren't expected to stay IC in interactions with them at a bare minimum, that's all!

Sena

Sarapis said:

RPWHO as proposed is exactly an RP flag. I'm not sure if some of you think we mean an actual flag that a character would be holding? This just occurred to me. Is that where the confusion came in? 

I think people were interpreting "flag" as something that would be visible passively, without actively checking some list. Like a differently coloured name in room descriptions or something.

I don't think many people would refer to sparwho as a "spar flag", for example.

Sarapis

Taraus said:

But that's exactly what roleplaying comes down to - assuming and controlling a character. The references to crafting, sailing, etc, were your own, not mine - I was using them in a particular context there, not as a stand-alone comment.

The truth is, people are gonna water the concept down as much as they want to, regardless of what peripheral systems of flagging and registries exist. Depth of character and involvement in RP is and always will be up to the player, and their level of intent and interest both.

Ok. If you want to consider Pacman a roleplaying game, that's cool, but we're going to disagree.

Sarapis

Sena said:

Sarapis said:

RPWHO as proposed is exactly an RP flag. I'm not sure if some of you think we mean an actual flag that a character would be holding? This just occurred to me. Is that where the confusion came in? 

I think people were interpreting "flag" as something that would be visible passively, without actively checking some list. Like a differently coloured name in room descriptions or something.

I don't think many people would refer to sparwho as a "spar flag", for example.

'Flag' in programming terms refers to a binary state that is either 1 or 0. Every character in Achaea has hundreds (maybe over 1000 at this point?) flags associated with their character, that are either on or off. Think of almost anything in Achaea that can only be on or off as pertains you or a mob, and it's probably a flag.

Taraus

Sarapis said:

Taraus said:

But that's exactly what roleplaying comes down to - assuming and controlling a character. The references to crafting, sailing, etc, were your own, not mine - I was using them in a particular context there, not as a stand-alone comment.

The truth is, people are gonna water the concept down as much as they want to, regardless of what peripheral systems of flagging and registries exist. Depth of character and involvement in RP is and always will be up to the player, and their level of intent and interest both.

Ok. If you want to consider Pacman a roleplaying game, that's cool, but we're going to disagree.

And I guess if you want to put Achaea in the same game category as Pacman, that's cool, but we're probably gonna disagree there, too.

Jarrod

While not exactly a roleplay aficionado, I feel like HELP SECONDS explicitly covers what you're saying is fine:

While the base rule itself is simple, questions often arise regarding what
qualifies as interaction. The short version is that no adventurer may ever help
any other adventurer of yours in ANY WAY. This includes, but is by no means
limited to:

   - having more than one adventurer logged in at a time (see HELP
     MULTIPLAYING)
   - transferring items or gold between your characters, even with an
     intermediary
   - "passing along" of information from one character to another
   - voting for, favouring, or recommending favours by one character
     for another
   - harassing an organisation that you dislike from one character
     with another
   - furthering the IC goals of one character on another
   - using multiple characters to further a specific IC or OOC goal as
     a player

Both of those points seem explicit circumstances where using information gained about an organization via one character in that organization with another character opposed to that organization is prohibited.

Sarapis

Actually, it says nothing at all about organizations in the bolded parts. It just talks about passing information and using multiple characters to further a specific IC or OOC goal. Every single person with an alt does both of those things (why would you even have a character or an alt unless it was to fulfill some OOC goal, such as having fun?). 

Maybe it should though, because as written it's not only impossible to enforce, but it makes everyone with an alt guilty, which is not good. We'll get around to re-writing at some point, but only to reflect what is already the de facto policy - this isn't something we punish people for very often because it's too muddy and messy.

Sarapis

Taraus said:

Sarapis said:

Taraus said:

But that's exactly what roleplaying comes down to - assuming and controlling a character. The references to crafting, sailing, etc, were your own, not mine - I was using them in a particular context there, not as a stand-alone comment.

The truth is, people are gonna water the concept down as much as they want to, regardless of what peripheral systems of flagging and registries exist. Depth of character and involvement in RP is and always will be up to the player, and their level of intent and interest both.

Ok. If you want to consider Pacman a roleplaying game, that's cool, but we're going to disagree.

And I guess if you want to put Achaea in the same game category as Pacman, that's cool, but we're probably gonna disagree there, too.

I'm not. You're the one that told me that playing a character and doing something as that character is roleplaying....which describes virtually every video game ever made where you control a character and do things (ie almost every video game ever made).

I think the operative definition of roleplaying is far more narrow than that, and that Pacman is, in no sense of the word, a roleplaying game. I also think it's very possible to play Achaea like one plays Pacman, and simply not worry about roleplaying. That's fine with us as long as those people aren't actively interfering with folks who are roleplaying.

Taraus

Just to clarify, my original posts about assuming a role, and roleplaying, were referencing Achaea. I didn't think that I needed to actually specify what I meant, given that I was posting on Achaea's forums, in a thread about roleplay in Achaea.

You're taking the stroke of the brush and applying it to a much larger spectrum than I originally intended; I wasn't generalizing, I was being fairly specific. 

And you're right, there will be people who play Achaea for no other reason than trounce enemies, and do it with all the same involvement, care and thought they'd give to nailing Inky, Blinky and Clyde.

And my ultimate point was that it might be better to have THOSE individuals (the ones who don't really take the characters seriously, either their own or the ones they interact with), elect to have themselves flagged (or whatever'd) to signify that they aren't particularly interested in in-depth story arcs. To me, it feels sort of... detrimental and forced to scout a pre-formed list of people to know who will actually respond to your attempts at RP; I feel like it might be better to work with the assumption that -everyone- RPs, and those who don't actually separate themselves from the masses.

Nim

You could roleplay in pacman, if you acted the role of pacman out rather than just treating it as a game with game mechanics. It'd be a very limited, minimalistic role, and there'd be very little room to express that role, but it is completely possible.

I mean, like, when I play strategy games with friends, sometimes I get into my role - usually for laughs rather than drama, but if you approach strategy games like that, it can also make it easier to justify screwing over your friends in said game, since it's not you that did it, it is Kal'gro'k Queen of the Space Bugs that betrayed them, because she sees everything as food. Everything.

That doesn't mean you're roleplaying, though, when you just play the game by its mechanics. Roleplaying involves taking on a persona that is not your own (even if it may be similar in ways) - experiencing the world from a different perspective, and acting on that perspective rather than your own.

That is why roleplaying is sometimes about fighting the dragon and dying because you're playing someone else who does not know the meaning of fear, and always fulfills a promise... not yourself, who is safe in a comfy chair, who had only hours ago read through the monster manual and found that dragons can kick your teeth in.

[Footnote: It is entirely possible to roleplay yourself, because a you that lives in, say, Ashtan is still different from the you typing on your keyboard.]

Jacen

Yeah, I think it would be less of a big deal if the assumption was that characters you meet are more than just portals through which players play the game. 

Also, I think the option to "turn off RP" should only be available to the non-citizened, non-Housed, non-Ordered. If we can't agree that taking on the role of an Achaean is roleplay, can we at least agree that taking on the role of an Achaean involved in IC organizations is roleplay?

Shirszae

Jacen said:

Yeah, I think it would be less of a big deal if the assumption was that characters you meet are more than just portals through which players play the game. 

Also, I think the option to "turn off RP" should only be available to the non-citizened, non-Housed, non-Ordered. If we can't agree that taking on the role of an Achaean is roleplay, can we at least agree that taking on the role of an Achaean involved in IC organizations is roleplay?

 The problem with this is that even if you limit the mechanic, it won't automatically force everyone who is in any of those type of organizations actually roleplay.  The best you can do is to treat everything as IC (with the excuse of insanity, et all), but that does not mean that was actually their intent in some cases

Halos

Halos said:

The term "RP" has a lot different connotations to it in Achaea. I think Sarapis is referring to RP in terms of single instances of meaningful, emote-heavy(or not) character interaction. I consider this a narrow definition (when looking at the larger, ongoing story of Achaea), but it seems to fit for the purposes of this thread.

Wei

Mithridates said:

I like the idea of the opposite. Such as 'don't RP with me' I'm not a huge fan of the RP, play the game for the combat, and having a way to not RP with random people who are sending me RP tells in the middle of a fight would be sweet. 

Mithridates said:

Mithridates stands here, clearly unwilling to talk to you.

Roleplaying doesn't mean you have to be friendly. It is perfectly valid RP to be someone who doesn't like talking to people. Also, as mentioned above, that last bit is currently possible to do via Poses.

Jacen

Halos said:

Halos said:

The term "RP" has a lot different connotations to it in Achaea. I think Sarapis is referring to RP in terms of single instances of meaningful, emote-heavy(or not) character interaction. I consider this a narrow definition (when looking at the larger, ongoing story of Achaea), but it seems to fit for the purposes of this thread.

I understand that, but I think if we're going to be discriminating based on RP, I think we need to separate those who aren't going to touch it and don't view their avatars as characters in the Achaean universe from those who do, 

Jonathin

I haven't really read any of the intervening posts since the first page or two because I'm running out of time. In any case, I just wanted to say that this sounds like a neat experiment. Even as an older player, I sometimes have a difficult time distinguishing between those who are looking for RP as opposed to just standing around AFK in the major hangouts.

I can understand the arguments posed (the ones I read as I skimmed the rest of the pages), but I think that the only way to see if positives would outweigh the negatives (if any) is to try it. If it doesn't work as intended, modify it or remove it like was done with moods.

Shibumi

I've read every post.

I think that all arguments have a valid point, and this issue is not easy to address at all. Incidentally, for some of you who argue the rules about help and such, there is an old maxim in Arab jurisdiction which I find amazing: "It is better to have a stupid law and a smart judge, than a smart law and a stupid judge". I simple love it, and with @Sarapis and the Admins stuff I think we are good about the alts issues. 

However, my opinion is that RPWHO would probably work in the end, as simply put Achaea is not a RP enforced mud. 

I always try to RP even if I have little time to play (and this clearly impairs my impact on the game), however I can say that probably people as too busy with IG stuff than RPing. So maybe RPWHO could help in boosting some RP in Achaea, not on high level public post, but on day to day basis.

From another standpoint, I have reasons to believe that interaction between players was more lively years ago, and now it feels a bit dull. So an injection of RP will not harm anyone (except @Mithirdates, but he is a tough guy).

While students perform Tekura's kata, I even use "says" to RP while they act (I am quite RL proficient in Martial Arts, so I love such occasions). Or every time I kill a mob, I say "Burn in Light", it just add some flavor to my experience, and I hope it adds flavor to other people occasionally hunting with me. 

Anyway, I had the best roleplay interaction with newbies than older players. I think this happens for two reasons.

First, high level players have no reason to roleplay with a non popular character like me (which is not a newbie experience wise, so they do not feel the need to help). I am super fine with that.

Second, they are too busy in administrative stuff as there is a lot to do in Achaea.

This leads to a diminished small and simple RP interaction, and impairs the natural flow @Bluef stated. 

Additionally, I suspect that experienced people form other mud's sometimes do ask "Where is the roleplaying here?" They score a point, in my opinion, and they may switch to another mud.

So I think that @Sarapis idea is good. I hope I came up with something readable.

This is just a great game and I have no time to play, damn it!

Mathonwy

Realistically speaking, I don't think it'll ruin immersion any more than skype/ooc clans/etc already do. People already ask me/each other to RP with them over skype or via messages or whatever (and this is a reasonably widespread practice, I'm given to understand), so all this is doing is taking out the middle man in that regard.

I've also never been a fan of that kind of vaguely elitist 'if you're not finding RP you're not looking hard enough' mentality. You shouldn't have to work your ass off to find someone to talk to in an online multiplayer roleplaying game.

As for the charm of spontaneous RP, I mean, it's always going to be there, and again, speaking realistically, I think that a lot of this alleged appeal is just nostalgia anyway. I've had some great charming little experiences, yes, but I've also had relatively mediocre ones and quite a few where it's obvious that the person with whom I'm roleplaying really isn't interested. That's sort of the danger inherent in just sending tells to random names on QWHO, I suppose, which is basically the system in place now if you have no other leads. At least if a system like this were to be implemented, I'd be reasonably assured that the people with whom I'd interact would be interested in interacting with me-- and it doesn't stop me from speaking to whomever I might find underneath Great Rock, either.

It also has the pretty big advantage of catering to people who don't forums and thus might not know who's generally down to RP with randos and who isn't.

People throughout the thread have said this before, but the big risk is in how you present anything like this. You don't want it to develop along the lines of a PvP flag, where people get pissy if you PK them if their flag isn't up... although I've yet to hear of a person getting upset because someone legitimately tried to roleplay with them. Granted, anything's possible, but still.

The other risk in presenting it as some manner of 'RP macro on' (cc: @Mishgul) does kind of imply that Achaea is RP-optional, and as @Jurixe said, you should be roleplaying from the moment you log in until the moment you qq (not to say that you have to be super-hammy-"this is gonna end up in an Events post I can feel it"-mode, but I think remaining consistently in-character ought to be an expectation). On the other hand, if you presented it as some manner of 'looking for conversation/discussion/debate/argument' (although something with a far less stupid-sounding name), I think you'd be able to implement it and avoid those kinds of pitfalls.

Synbios

My ineffable thoughts: Implement it anyway. Tweak as needed. Junk and replace when found detrimental. 

Keep this adage in mind, adapted from a certain Farm of Animals: "All Achaeans are encouraged to RP, but some Achaeans encourage RP more than others." No porcine Napoleon needed.

Hasar

July Promotion: RP Flag Talisman pieces!

If you don't have a RP flag, you must always RP or be shrubbed!

Normal Flag: Minimum requirement of RPon Time -> 80% login time.

Skype Flag: 50% Login time!

L33T/Pacman Flag: 0% login time!

IT IS GENIUS.

Shirszae

^Very nice idea, and probably the best alternative presented so far in the thread. Would be great to see those points actually being used for what they were meant to from the beginning. 

It kind of has a similar problem to the other one, and to cityfavours and the like, in general.  What of the people who don't get noticed despite their work?  Or rogues? 

I think it would be great if people at large could award these points, with perhaps a limit in the manner of having to wait a number of days/months/whatever in between awarding. Or not being able to award two times in a row to the same person, and the like.

Kuruvar

I think the idea of doing something with roleplay points is a good one. I can't even remember the last time I looked at someone who DIDN'T have full so at the moment it seems like a pretty underutilised system.

Jhaeli

The complication I see with the points system suggestion is that it continues to reward an elitist attitude. What about for those starting out/wanting to try/etc.? Would you stick to those with higher points or would you actively seek out those with lower points to give them opportunities to earn points?

The whole point of a RPWHO/RP FLAG is to help players who are less experienced and/or have a small pool of people to roleplay with. Most experienced roleplayers already know where to go and/or who to talk to and a points system simply rewards the experienced.

It's not going to be (or shouldn't be, at least) a blatant "flag" that breaks immersion, in the same way that flags for which city you're in (visible on SCORE or HONOURS) doesn't break immersion. And it doesn't mean spontaneous roleplay won't happen, in the same way that removing yourself from (or never flagging) SPARWHO doesn't mean you're not open to a spar. This is just an additional method for roleplayers to find other roleplayers, addressing an obvious need in the community.

ETA: Also, the current points system isn't about rewards, it's about punishment. Points are knocked when you're blatantly disturbing others, etc. It's not intended to be a positive thing, afaik.