Gold Sinks

Shirszae

Xith said:

Which is why I said a trait, cause there are already like 5 seafaring traits.

Trait or not, the idea to have anything that gives more SPP is equally bad.

Nim

As per typical rant of the day, hunting is a pain when dragons are taking up your spot(s). What if you could rent access to PvE arenas, essentially converting gold into hunting opportunity, and thus EXP with a risk of death/failure? They could take other forms as well, such as strangely well-controlled interplanar gates, hunting grounds, dungeons, etc.

Shecks

Go play WoW?

Bluef

Nim said:

As per typical rant of the day, hunting is a pain when dragons are taking up your spot(s). What if you could rent access to PvE arenas, essentially converting gold into hunting opportunity, and thus EXP with a risk of death/failure? They could take other forms as well, such as strangely well-controlled interplanar gates, hunting grounds, dungeons, etc.

Very Lusternian. Maybe too much so. 

The much simpler way to fix this would be more dragon hunting spots. 

Shecks

If they do that, I hope they're more like LHG, and less like annwyn/UW.

Sylvance

Shecks said:

If they do that, I hope they're more like UBRS, and less like annwyn/UW.

Bishan

Sylvance said:

Shecks said:

If they do that, I hope they're more like UBRS, and less like annwyn/UW.

LEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRROYYYYY JEEEEENNNKINS!!!!!

Antonius

The only way that would work as an effective gold sink is if there were no gold drops inside of them, or the maximum possible gold earnt was a tiny fraction of the entry cost, and then how many people are going to bother?

Renoir

Antonius said:

The only way that would work as an effective gold sink is if there were no gold drops inside of them, or the maximum possible gold earnt was a tiny fraction of the entry cost, and then how many people are going to bother?

@antonius

Personally, Renoir would. She has enough money to get by, and mostly wants to hunt up to level 80+. An area you could pay to get into, that will always have fresh denizens for experience would be more than worth it. Even better, have them drop no gold but drops shards. Ren would go nuts on that, as I'm always looking to charge my icon more, and if I can get good experience, while getting shards, I would pay my way in, knowing I would be getting no gold from it.

EDIT: PS:

Shards to me don't seem like a violation to it being a gold sink, as even though people sell shards when their house icon is doing well, it's not generating money, it's transfering it. The person who sells shards from one of the admission cost rooms, would likely turn around and spend that gold to go back in, for more experience.

Penwize

That's actually a good point.  A place that costs gold to get to and produces talismans, but not gold, would actually be a gold sink on the game because it's not actually producing more gold: it's taking it out and turning it into something else, and would be in decently high demand if the talismans it dropped were worthwhile in some way, even if just to sell.

Xith

There are no pet fish. Make aquariums for homes and let people sell types of fish as pets to other adventurers.

Bit of a project but worth it.

Shecks

Producing talismans is producing gold.  Duh.

And I see your idea like this:

asumptions:

USD = credits = gold = talismans

private bashing area = free experience + free talismans

with your idea: gold = private bashing area

therefore:

USD = free experience

gold = more gold

edit:  Also, the pvp implications of instances would be ridiculous, assuming they are in any way private.  Multiple instances of a location that are public might have some interesting promise, but we essentially already have that.

Antonius

Talismans don't add gold to the game, unless you count the tiny amounts obtained from breaking them down.

Yes, you can sell them to other players, but that's just moving gold around, it doesn't add new gold into the game's economy.

Shecks

The point is, bashing in protected, private instances, is bashing for gold, since you can just sell them for (a lot of) gold.  Hell, a single red belly goes for 250-300k.

I'm just not sure why private bashing areas need to exist.  There are vast amounts of untapped bashing areas already, just go bash them.

Shirszae

Shecks said:

The point is, bashing in protected, private instances, is bashing for gold, since you can just sell them for (a lot of) gold.  Hell, a single red belly goes for 250-300k.

I think you are missing the point. No new gold would be generated because denizens would not drop it. Thus, it would not be new stacks of gold which would change hands, but the already existing. Which means that, in the long run, if a lot of people bashed in these areas, gold floating around would indeed diminish because the already existing would doubtlessly be used up in actual sinks.

Antonius

That point is totally unrelated to what you previously said. An area that produces talisman pieces does not produce gold.

I agree that the idea is unnecessary, but don't put "Duh" after a statement that is incorrect. It's insulting and makes you look incredibly silly.

Shecks

Saying that bashing for talismans isn't bashing for gold is like saying bashing for gold isn't bashing for credits.  I see what you're saying, we were getting at different points.  I was responding to @Penwize's suggestion to have private instances (aka islands) where one could farm talismans.

Dorn

There's a fundamental disconnect here.

Let me try to explain it.

If Person A and person B both go bashing, in two areas which generate 50k each and 1 talisman piece over the course of their bashing time, then that's +100k gold, +2 talisman pieces.

If Person A instead goes to a bashing area that costs 50k to get into, but averages 2 talisman pieces dropped, say, then that's +0 gold, +3 talisman pieces.

Person A could turn around and sell both those talisman pieces for 300k each, making 550k profit - but that 600k they earned has been taken from somewhere else, and not just added into the economy from out of nowhere. There's no new gold floating around, even though Person A is significantly richer via going into the instance instead of going to normal areas.

This is a somewhat exaggerated example just to make the point, of course - I'm by no means suggesting these instances should have increased talisman drop rates (or increased XP, or any advantages over public bashing - so long as they're competitive XP wise, everything else should be equal or worse). Likewise, I'm by no means saying 50k is what people make as standard, nor that the area should cost 50k, nor that the area should cost what normal bashing generates in an X time frame, etc.

Basically the numbers are made up and don't matter, don't fixate on them.

Antonius

Yes, that's the point I was making. Bashing for talisman pieces is kind of like bashing for gold, except it increases your personal gold amount without increasing the net amount of gold that exists in the game.

Mithridates

Shecks is right. Regardless of what the instances drop, people will still loop Annwyn and UW and other high-gold producing areas. There will be more gold, eventually, but that's due to more people getting dragon and more people being able to bash the DK's and Annwyn.  You all are explaining player transactions to other players, which merely means the gold is shuffled. 

Nim

The idea of a gold sink is that net gold is lost. It truthfully doesn't matter if personal gold is gained in the process - they exist to balance the constant gain of gold to the system as a whole. If you pay 10,000 to get a talisman and then sell it to another player for 100,000, the system still lost your 10,000. The loss was just redistributed.

As far as PvP concerns, I was thinking that it'd be somewhat like a Zelda minigame where you pay for X minutes of hunting. Maybe you'd be unable to play again for 30 seconds thereafter. If people know you're in there, I think that's probably enough.

Anedhel

More dragons being around won't make Annwyn/UW respawn any faster. I'm fairly certain that, apart from dead hours, those places are pretty close to being constantly bashed, so I don't think the addition of ten or fifteen dragons'd make that huge a difference.

Not to mention, since there's more competition, it means more people are going to be getting less, which in turn means that the gold sink of paying for the instance is more of a factor (it's easier to do if you're the only person bashing, say, Annwyn, since you can bash it, pay for the instance, etc. If you only get Annwyn once a day, then paying for the instance will come out of your pocket, so to speak, not turn-around gold). Ostensibly, these areas will also be dangerous and difficult, meaning you'll be spending more on herbs/fills than in other places, which is also a gold sink (a minor one, but every bit counts).

Just set the price high. I know people who avoid, say, Morindar, because it's 'too expensive' to bash (crap drops, uses a ton of bloodroot). The amount of people who'd use the instances'd probably be smallish, and that's the real problem. I think you really underestimate how expensive it'd get.

Personally, I'm against the instance idea. I don't like it because it breaks the idea of Achaea as a dynamic, growing place, more so than respawning denizens do, in my eyes. Still, it'd make sense, from a gold sink perspective, I guess.

Penwize

I think it's important to note that instancing already exists in Achaea in the form of diving.  Diving is instanced bashing.  It's just not very rewarding and requires you to have someone sit on a boat in case a player or divine decides to mess with you.

Were there more expensive forms of diving, or something else roughly equivalent, that still allowed PvP in some way, I think it'd be a very worthwhile addition.  The PvP concern is a valid one, so that should be addressed.  Maybe whatever his instance mechanic is allows for people to hunt down and invade your instance, which makes the invader open PK to you like UW/Annwyn does?  Could be interesting, something to think through a bit more thoroughly.

Either way, if it costs more gold than it produces it'll be a gold sink, and if it produces something else of high demand to players like a new talisman set (not dragon talismans, something new), then it would become a pretty high demand place and would likely frequented by enough people to make it a functional gold sink on the economy.

Shirszae

Penwize said:

The PvP concern is a valid one, so that should be addressed.  Maybe whatever his instance mechanic is allows for people to hunt down and invade your instance, which makes the invader open PK to you like UW/Annwyn does?  Could be interesting, something to think through a bit more thoroughly.

Make it like Dark Souls!  :P

Penwize

Shirszae said:

Make it like Dark Souls!  :P

Yeah, exactly like that!  Someone invades whatever your instance deal is, and it's a fight for it.  Could be a lot of fun, honestly.

Sarapis

Definitely not interested in creating private talisman farming areas for people. 

Penwize

Sarapis said:

Definitely not interested in creating private talisman farming areas for people. 

Understandably, but that's not what I'm suggesting.  Open it to invasion by others in a relatively easy manner (easier than catching ships is right now) and you not only provide a way to alleviate some of the concern people have with bashing scarcity (as true or false as it may be, it's perceived to be true so that's how people handle it), but also provide a new and potentially interesting avenue of conflict, along with a gold sink.

Jacen

Not that I agree with Shecks about more talismans only generating gold, but you do have to question how much gold will be generated due to the demand for these talismans. Sure, no gold is gained when someone pays you gold for the talismans you have bashed up, but if that person generated that gold for the sole reason of purchasing the new talismans, then your new gold sink isn't very effective. That's why things that cost gold aren't necessarily gold sinks - you have to decrease the amount of gold being generated to actually purchase those things.

Sarapis

Penwize said:

Sarapis said:

Definitely not interested in creating private talisman farming areas for people. 

Understandably, but that's not what I'm suggesting.  Open it to invasion by others in a relatively easy manner (easier than catching ships is right now) and you not only provide a way to alleviate some of the concern people have with bashing scarcity (as true or false as it may be, it's perceived to be true so that's how people handle it), but also provide a new and potentially interesting avenue of conflict, along with a gold sink.

You already have those kinds of areas that other people can invade - Underworld, Annwyn, etc. What you're proposing is just creating a fairly minor gold sink at the expense of Talisman inflation it seems to me.

Mannimar

It would need to be something that we couldn't sell, wouldn't infringe upon artefact sales, and would still have demand. So they'd have to be one off items bound to the character. Perhaps possibly traded for other items from the instance, but that's be it.


Perhaps special armour/weapon descriptions that you can use on them. Nor costume descriptions, just unique ones. These can extend to all sorts of things too.

I'll call the drops vouchers.

Common finds would be things like ink vouchers (already contradicting myself. Don't mind me just thinking aloud. ), Tattoo vouchers, unique bound items that have only flavor and reactions would be more rare. Maybe unique "portals" past ferries. And maybe maybe (don't take this one seriously) something with okayish combat implications that had a rarity that would make Penwize weep openly.


Blame all grammar and mistakes on my phone.