Change To Contracts / Marks

Strata

Dunn said:

My only complaint is that I still haven't been assigned a contract.

Welcome to the DO NOT HIRE list. If you have been slighted by the Nu-Favoritism Mark Selective Services Selection System, please feel free to submit a grievance form to the Silent Executioner, and handler of all contracts by the system, Santar Darkwind.

Tecton

Triak said:

Tecton said:

We've adjusted the Ivory Mark a little, based on feedback:

1 - The Ivory Mark Logistics Division (IMLD) will no longer assign contracts to Champions who are enemied to the hirer's city (and vice-versa).

2 - IMLD will now refund half of the Champion's cut back to the hirer upon completion of a contract.

Enjoy!

I don't like this.  It seems this change was made specifically to appease Targossas - a hard coded change in response to their choosen player RP.  What about the negative consequences to the other Ivory Marks?  Let's take @Jhui for example.  As a member of Ashtan he doesn't really care who he does business with, as Ashtan doesn't have any set laws on deals with enemies.  If you want to kill someone for a city enemy, knock yourself out.  Under this change he can only get contracts from Ashtan or Hashan or non citied characters.  This is even worse for Mahldorian characters like @Tirac.  Their only option to remedy this is to tell them to change Mark orgs - highly unfair and also completely metagame.

I feel like this is a knee jerk reaction tailored specifically for one small set of players, instead of considering the rest of the players.

If he wants to kill anyone without restriction, it sounds like the Quisalis is a better place for him anyway

Jovolo said:

Allowing Ivory Mark's the choice of whether or not they accept contracts from city enemies seems like a better alternative than catering specifically to Targossas' roleplay whims. With traveling to the head of the organisation and asking them for this exemption, as a way of implementing it in game.

I did weigh this up, could have gone either way (and may potentially still change after we see how things go).

Kuy

Just to throw this out there, but Targossas isn't completely player-driven RP.

They have two active Divine that have steered them to where they are now.

(This is not a shot at those Divine, mind you - they're doing a slam up job.  Just making sure people know that pulling out the "player whim" card isn't quite fair, nor is it true.)

Jules

I wish hirers couldn't know which organization they're hiring from.  It's really looking like "Good" people may be required to hire only from the Champion pool (which is probably going to be largely ineffectual compared to Quisalis) after this change, especially as it will more starkly split the two organizations along factional lines.  It's like admin started out considering the hirer's needs as part of this change, but is now once again considering mainly the Marks themselves, and the RP desires of one portion of the playerbase (not just Targossas, but anyone who believes that the RP look of Mark is more important than its usefulness).

Xith

Is there any function that takes the Mark's active contracts into account?

For example, say that J is a much higher rated mark than Q, but J has 12 active contracts and Q has 0. Seems that no matter how bad they are they should still get a higher chance at the contract just because.

After all, they can't compete for a higher ranking if they're never given the chance.

Feral

I have never had a character in Ashtan, is it true that the city would have no problem with it's citizens providing material assistance to sworn enemies of the city?

I just don't get why this keeps being framed ad a Targossas only issue.

With respect to the change I think it works though it still leaves open the chance of unknowingly helping a member of an organization that your character has sworn to never aid (as they are not yet formal enemies of your city). Once the Ivory rankings settle out you can probably get a very good idea as to who will get your contract and that information could easily be used against them.

I am glad to see player feedback being taken into account though

Xer

@Xith - Yes, it's stated in the announce that Marks with many active contracts are less likely to get contracts until they have completed some. 

Also, I think the payout is bugged, or it's just me T_T I was supposed to get 1539 gold for a contract but instead I got... 1 gold

Wynedere

Though I appreciate the work that went into changing the system, I have to say that there isn't anything about it that I personally like. For one, hirers have no control over who they hire. The system can easily pick a less skilled mark to take on a highly competent combatant. Players who are hired on have no idea who is hired to assassinate them. Marks don't even know who's hiring them. The whole thing reminds me too much of the secrecy that is so prevalent in MKO. To me, the whole idea is extraordinarily disappointing.

Of course, this is just my opinion. 

Xith

Yeah I think it solves many more problems than it creates though. Your probability of hiring a competent mark is influenced by the system but also doesn't favor specific marks to get all the chances. To the previous extent of

if idied then hirehirst() end

So it's fairer for the marks and helps them succeed because you aren't constantly tipped off about contracts against you. There are things to sort out like veils and everything, but it looks promising so far.

Draekar

Thanks @Tecton and @Makarios I think this is a helpful step towards better RP for the heavily aligned factions.

I get that some individuals were probably excited at the prospect of getting any and all contracts for any and all targets, but an entire faction's RP suffers for that system and even with this change in place those individuals are still going to get a broader range than they probably got before.

That aside the idea for Ivory marks to be more selective with contracts seems like it is worth more thought too though, but glad to see some movement in the hardcoded system already.

Shecks

Repost

Strata

Xith said:

Yeah I think it solves many more problems than it creates though. Your probability of hiring a competent mark is influenced by the system but also doesn't favor specific marks to get all the chances. To the previous extent of

if idied then hirehirst() end

So it's fairer for the marks and helps them succeed because you aren't constantly tipped off about contracts against you. There are things to sort out like veils and everything, but it looks promising so far.

I speculate that the selection code is something akin to this though:

if(newContract) {

    if(newContract.isIvory()) {

        p = ivoryMarksList;

        do {

            if(!strcmp(p->markName, "Jhui")) {

                ivoryHire(p, newContract);

                break;

            }

            p->next();

        } while(p);

    } else {

        p = quisalisMarksList->get("Santar");

        ivoryHire(p, newContract);

   }

}

ETA: oops i thought Lothiac still had it.

Shecks

@Feral no, Ashtan has no problem with this, ideologically. For instance, I see raids with Ashtani on both sides occasionally, which is totally fine, assuming they aren't raiding Ashtan.

As for being "forced" to kill people you don't want to kill... This isn't that big of an issue. You don't -have- to kill anyone, but your reputation is going to slip (a tiny bit) if you are picky about your targets (as it should, I don't want to hire a picky mark). Also, wasn't this already fixed before you posted, anyhow?

Shecks

Xith said:

There are things to sort out like veils and everything, but it looks promising so far.

I still fail to see anything wrong with veils and the mark system. The only "problem" is that people who don't have a veil have a (minutely) more difficult time tracking down their target, which is what the 2000cr artefact is supposed to do. If a mark can't use one of the 50 methods of overcoming this slight inconvenience, they certainly deserve to fail to fulfill contracts.

Hint: Befriend one of the 100+ people running around with veils. Alternatively, set up traps and/or tactics to find or draw out your target.

Feral

Shecks said:

As for being "forced" to kill people you don't want to kill... This isn't that big of an issue. You don't -have- to kill anyone, but your reputation is going to slip (a tiny bit) if you are picky about your targets. Also, wasn't this already fixed before you posted, anyhow?

The problem is not being forced to kill someone, it is only after you kill someone you learn that you ended up helping @MemberOfOrgYouHate and unless you just ignore that you are going to have problems. Though as this has been stated repeatedly in multiple posts I doubt this post will enlighten you but I am an eternal optimist.

I guess as long as there is no easy way for third parties to find out who exactly you have been helping (and why) it will not matter much. People will just ignore the issue and life will go on.

I look forward to the public posts this system could generate from savvy clients.

Shecks

@Feral back at ya... I assumed you weren't asking that, because -that- issue has already been discussed and addressed.

Jhui

Tecton said:

Triak said:

Tecton said:

We've adjusted the Ivory Mark a little, based on feedback:

1 - The Ivory Mark Logistics Division (IMLD) will no longer assign contracts to Champions who are enemied to the hirer's city (and vice-versa).

2 - IMLD will now refund half of the Champion's cut back to the hirer upon completion of a contract.

Enjoy!

I don't like this.  It seems this change was made specifically to appease Targossas - a hard coded change in response to their choosen player RP.  What about the negative consequences to the other Ivory Marks?  Let's take @Jhui for example.  As a member of Ashtan he doesn't really care who he does business with, as Ashtan doesn't have any set laws on deals with enemies.  If you want to kill someone for a city enemy, knock yourself out.  Under this change he can only get contracts from Ashtan or Hashan or non citied characters.  This is even worse for Mahldorian characters like @Tirac.  Their only option to remedy this is to tell them to change Mark orgs - highly unfair and also completely metagame.

I feel like this is a knee jerk reaction tailored specifically for one small set of players, instead of considering the rest of the players.

If he wants to kill anyone without restriction, it sounds like the Quisalis is a better place for him anyway

Jovolo said:

Allowing Ivory Mark's the choice of whether or not they accept contracts from city enemies seems like a better alternative than catering specifically to Targossas' roleplay whims. With traveling to the head of the organisation and asking them for this exemption, as a way of implementing it in game.

I did weigh this up, could have gone either way (and may potentially still change after we see how things go).

am considering changing now.  I have spent over a decade as Ivory Mark without quitting, so it's kinda hard to leave, but Quisalis obviously fits better now.

Can I insta-switch or do I have to wait some weird amount of time?

Zeon

Still waiting on contracts Where's that Qui'anar favouritism?

Strata

Zeon said:

Still waiting on contracts Where's that Qui'anar favouritism?

Sorry, you'll have to wait your turn with the rest of us. All contracts are currently going to Santar until he eventually decides to go dormant forever.

Shecks

Also yet to receive any contracts.  Where's da love?

Is it true that contracts on members of Quisalis/Ivory cannot go to marks of the same organization?  As in, if someone were to request an assassin (Quisalis) to hire on me (Quisalis), it would not be allowed?

It's hard for me to test this (within the bounds of proper use of the mark system), but if it's the case, then Ivory mark has a huge advantage, which should make them feel additionally comforted by this fact.

Coeur

Seems nice to have some initial anonymity, sort of 'no questions asked...(until the deed is done)'.

Just curious, how has the business of contracts been lately (generally)?

Strata

Shecks said:

Also yet to receive any contracts.  Where's da love?

Is it true that contracts on members of Quisalis/Ivory cannot go to marks of the same organization?  As in, if someone were to request an assassin (Quisalis) to hire on me (Quisalis), it would not be allowed?

It's hard for me to test this (within the bounds of proper use of the mark system), but if it's the case, then Ivory mark has a huge advantage, which should make them feel additionally comforted coddled by this fact.

The only two hypothesis I have come up with are as follows:

1. The system is mathematically flawed.

2. It's not based on math. There's someone or more responsible for processing the contracts behind the scenes. And they are biased.

Shecks

Or it's random, and we're really, really unlucky.  One could argue that randomness is sortof mathematically flawed.

Another shameless plug for basing mark choice on amount of gold offered, vs. ranking.  I think it's a seriously great idea, and is worth adding to this change.  Would fix Strata's (a lot of our) mark selection qualms, as well.

Eld

Shecks said:

Or it's random, and we're really, really unlucky.  One could argue that randomness is sortof mathematically flawed.

Rather, people's common sense interpretations of randomness are mathematically flawed.

Shecks

Or, your understanding of how an organization that divides up contracts evenly to its members works is flawed.

Somehow I doubt that Derellin rolls a d20 every time a new order comes in.

Strata

Shecks said:

Or, your understanding of how an organization that divides up contracts evenly to its members works is flawed.

Somehow I doubt that Derellin rolls a d20 every time a new order comes in.

No. It's definitely a d6. Here's the table.

Roll         Quisalis        Ivory

1              Santar          Iakimen

2              Santar          Iakimen

3              Santar          Iakimen

4              Santar          Iakimen

5              Santar          Iakimen

6              Santar          Iakimen

ETA: Very disperse. Much chance. So much random.

Eld

Lolwut. I wasn't making any argument one way or the other about your and Strata's perceptions of the assignment of contracts, just responding to your seemingly general statement about randomness. But perhaps where I thought you were waxing philosophical about much more interesting things than the allocation of contracts, you were actually making a claim about the specific implementation at hand; in that case, my apologies for the confusion.

Shecks

Clearly someone else is getting a shot, but decided to waste their golden ticket. (several times)

*******************************[ Mark Rankings ]*******************************

Assassin                       Reputation           

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

Xer                            97

Proficy                        93

*******************************************************************************

Shecks

Oh, the forum trolls have recruited a new member.  Congrats mate, enjoy whatever depraved sense of happiness that affords you.

Jovolo

Everything I said sounded mean, so:

Eld wasn't trolling. You have a problem if you think he was.