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Change To Contracts / Marks

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  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    Then the rankings wouldn't tell us who the best mark is... only who is the best arena dueler? Contracts are rare compared to general purpose pk. Any sort of general means of raising rank that just involves killing other marks is going to happen way more than actual contracts, which means your ranking will become primarily the number of other marks you've slain and not how many contracts you've finished successfully.

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  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    Edit: Nvm. Was going to post something snarky, but.

    Would it be impractical to implement something not unlike the current combat rankings system so that marks can fight each other in arenas and raise their rank that way, in addition to the fulfilling-your-contracts thing? Maybe only in duel to the deaths, or something, because being a Mark is (supposed to be) dangerous.
    Don't know about impractical, but fairly pointless, imo. As has been pointed out, mark rep should be based on effectiveness at completing contracts, not ability to win 1v1 duels under controlled conditions.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Fair enough, although it kind of seems a bit luck-of-the-draw at the moment. If mark X gets five contracts, all on artied, hide-in-City types, and mark Y gets five contracts, all on midbies, that also doesn't tell you who the best mark is, but I guess there's no way to work that out, probably.

    ETA: How quickly you get fulfill a contract doesn't affect your rep at the moment, does it?
    Bluef
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mark selection should be made deterministic, like some sort of work queue, especially if contracts are an uncommon event. Randomness is only evenly distributed at high sample sizes.

    Deterministic but with potential for even the lowest tier marks to have a shot at redemption, and with payment as an input factor.
    Shecks
  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not a mark so I may be talking out of my ass here, but risking that I have two suggestions that may help in the tweaking of the new system:

    1. Ivory are champions. Historically at least, Champions knowingly represent somebody who cannot or will not do the deed themselves. It's representative sort of concept. It's also very much self-determined and free-willed. I.e. you don't have to Champion somebody if you don't want to and shouldn't get penalized for it.

    As such, Ivory Marks should see who their target it, who the hirer is and what the reason is. They then decide if they want the contract or not. If they accept it and don't fulfill it they get penalized. If they pass on it then they don't get penalized (but also don't get rep boost for completing it). After one passes it, it goes to the next. If mark doesn't make a decision in a RL day, then goes to the next one automatically. After a certain number, maybe 5 and nobody takes it then the hirer gets his money back with a letter saying nobody wanted to take up his cause and represent. 

    Because they can pass on it, then it should handle any factional issues. Some champions may or may not have various loyalties. That should be left up to the person's individual RP.

    Making it so no contracts are assigned to champions who are enemied to the hirer's city (and vice-versa) I don't think is workable as those marks that regularly raid (most if not all good combatants regularly do) will be left out of a lot of potential contracts that they may be morally and otherwise willing to take.


    2. On the Quisalis side, my understanding is that they're assassins pure and simple. A contract is a contract, friend, family or whatever shouldn't be an issue. So there shouldn't be any morality issues on this one or the person shouldn't be quisalis. 

    As this is more of a business model, the organization would want a reputation of effectiveness or nobody would use them. So the organization itself would want to assign contracts to those that could carry them out - though potentially they would cost more to get more. Potentially there could be two rates which are -significantly- different. Say 5,000 min, or a premium cost of 20,000 (or more). The premium contracts go to the top 5 rated marks and the rest go to the rest. If you're hiring somebody for their skill, you should be able to hire the best. 

    Otherwise, as far as number of contracts, I think the whole system just isn't popularized and known about by a lot of the relatively (last year or so) players. Lots of non combatants around and a lot of them would pay 5k to hire a contract out on a thief for example; and thieving has always been a pretty regularly happening thing. Same for raiding, city leader (assuming no moral qualms) could take out contracts on all raiding on behalf of the city. 
    The Truths hurt. Always.
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  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Zeon said:
    What's up with all these marks complaining about veils? Mark for like 6 rl years and the target owning a veil has -never- been a deciding factor in whether or not I was able to complete a contract.

    Xith said:
    I think Strata was written in Brainfuck.
    ftfy
    That makes him like infinitely more impressive though.
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  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    So, what is being done about the veils?  Are they going to make the system try to auto-select for them?  Something?
  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Jarrod said:
    The simple truth is that if you're able to see who you're being hired by or on and then decline the contract, people will filter contracts not by their desire to see justice done but rather by their desire to not help certain individuals and avoid taking contracts they could fail.


    That's generally the difference between a Champion and an Assassin though. The Assassin is hired. It's business. He knows that when he becomes an Assassin.

    The Champion is a different agreement. He's a willing representative. If you're an asshole then asking for people to willingly represent you and help you right the injustices of the world is going to be a bit harder. If you don't like that then you can hire an Assassin. 

    The two organizations need to either actually take on their respective roles and be quite different or they should be combined. 
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Suladan said: That's generally the difference between a Champion and an Assassin though. The Assassin is hired. It's business. He knows that when he becomes an Assassin. The Champion is a different agreement. He's a willing representative. If you're an asshole then asking for people to willingly represent you and help you right the injustices of the world is going to be a bit harder. If you don't like that then you can hire an Assassin. The two organizations need to either actually take on their respective roles and be quite different or they should be combined. 

      By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed. 

    Maybe we don't. But I have had contracts canceled or declined not because the mark didn't empathize or didn't want to take it on, but because leaders in their various organizations made it plain that if they did so they would find life quite difficult moving forward. That means that it isn't always the Mark's choice or about whether someone is worthy of a contract.

    There are external forces at play that have nothing to do with anything and that is what the new system, thankfully, removes.

    Edit: Damn the inability of these forums to quote anything properly anymore.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    So, what is being done about the veils?  Are they going to make the system try to auto-select for them?  Something?
    Nothing needs to be done about veils. Capable Marks have always found ways around them and always will. Less capable Marks will get progressively fewer contracts.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    ShecksSarapisCesarina
  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,661 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Bluef said:
      By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed. 

    ------------------------------I don't know why quotes don't work, never been able to figure them out------------------------------------

    If we assume that the Ivory Mark was created purely out of a desire to champion the weak and right injustices for those who cannot seek retribution on their own, then no - everyone has the same right to a champion. That is why the Ivory Mark allows you to attempt to hire Marks to take your contracts as opposed to straight up not allowing you to hire at all.

    However. If your reputation as a character is to such an extent that the majority of the Ivory Marks believe that you do not deserve their time and effort, that is also their prerogative. They are mortal and not free from external and internal motivations and influences, and I believe that those conflicts and mortal flaws are what make the world so interesting - that your actions can and should have repercussions. Yes, the Ivory Mark is meant to champion the weak. But what, specifically, is weak? Who is deserving of an Ivory Mark's blade? Who are the innocents? In my ideal world, those in the Ivory Mark would be able to choose and decide this for themselves. That is why you have the Quisalis - assassins who will get the job done for you, no questions asked, whereas an Ivory Mark would have principles and morals that might restrict their contracts, but perhaps lend more 'honour' to their completion.

    It also doesn't, and shouldn't matter, if these views by these marks are 'justified' or not. Every character is entitled to their views and grudges and biases, and these dynamics are what make the world interesting. If an Ivory Mark refuses to champion your cause because of your reputation, you have three options: 1) Hire a Quisalis, 2) Repair your reputation, bribe, make amends to the point where the Ivory Mark will consent to aid you, or 3) Grit your teeth in frustration and do nothing, because that is what you have earned. No one has a bad reputation straight off the bat - if you do, you've either earned it, or you've made some very powerful/influential/effective enemies - and that is fine. 

    I've completely derailed from the main point, I think, so - this new system to me is excellent for the Quisalis, but Ivory Marks might be better served being able to choose their contracts. I realise it is a potential advantage for the Ivory - maybe the Quisalis could earn more gold from their contracts to justify their 'no questions asked' approach, if this is not already the case, whereas Ivory could be cheaper but run the risk of rejection.
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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    While I think there's a potential for good RP behind it, it's squashed by the fact that it will invariably be abused by some to gain rank in the Ivory Mark. Pass on hard contracts, people who accept them are less likely to get assigned contracts because they have those harder ones to complete, the easier ones go to the people who passed, they gain rank easier. And what happens if every Ivory Mark member passes? The wronged is out of luck?

    Members of the Ivory Mark have to assume that the Mark org correctly decided to take the contract, and it is their duty to fulfill it. Ivory Mark members are the sword of the law, not the judge.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    IsaiahBluef
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...


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  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Katzchen said:
    @Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
    That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take. 
    Bluef
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:
    Katzchen said:
    @Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
    That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take. 
    How so? The mark has never (that I'm aware of) stated that they are picky about contracts taken and passed on... why would you assume they were if no contract was ever turned down?


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                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

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  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,221 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I found a problem with the new system.

    How many of these are active, and how many are receiving contracts?

    *******************************[ Mark Rankings ]*******************************
    Assassin                       Reputation           
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Santar                         105
    Hasar                          102
    Trance                         100
    Thiev                          100
    Aodfionn                       100
    Gamdol                         100
    Hirst                          100
    Daloc                          100
    Rennyn                         100
    Shecks                         100
    Taraza                         100
    Rangor                         100
    Otha                           100
    Cathy                          100
    Driden                         100
    Antidas                        100
    Vrass                          100
    Mortifer                       100
    Andraste                       100
    Dunn                           100
    Jinsun                         100
    Kross                          100
    Soujirou                       100
    Strata                         100
    Pharaus                        100
    Mizik                          100
    Zeon                           100
    Rip                            100
    Dontarion                      100
    Aetous                         100
    Dalran                         100
    Katalyst                       100
    Jarrod                         100
    Poergh                         100
    Corr                           100
    Taraus                         100
    Akia                           100
    Deridius                       100
    Entaro                         100
    Sabiru                         100
    Micaelis                       100
    Xer                            97
    Proficy                        93
    *******************************************************************************
    image
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Eld I idea'd to separate active and inactives, and it was approved.  Give it some time.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    Bluef
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Katzchen said:
    Eld said:
    Katzchen said:
    @Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
    That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take. 
    How so? The mark has never (that I'm aware of) stated that they are picky about contracts taken and passed on... why would you assume they were if no contract was ever turned down?
    Didn't mean to say they were, just that the actual validity of the contracts, as possibly evidenced by your 2 cancelled ones, doesn't necessarily have to contradict the picture Jarrod was pushing for.

    @Shecks, guessing you meant that to be at Rangor?
    Shirszae
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Rangor said:
    I found a problem with the new system.

    How many of these are active, and how many are receiving contracts?

    *******************************[ Mark Rankings ]*******************************
    Assassin                       Reputation           
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Santar                         105
    Hasar                          102
    Trance                         100
    Thiev                          100
    Aodfionn                       100
    Gamdol                         100
    Hirst                          100
    Daloc                          100
    Rennyn                         100
    Shecks                         100
    Taraza                         100
    Rangor                         100
    Otha                           100
    Cathy                          100
    Driden                         100
    Antidas                        100
    Vrass                          100
    Mortifer                       100
    Andraste                       100
    Dunn                           100
    Jinsun                         100
    Kross                          100
    Soujirou                       100
    Strata                         100
    Pharaus                        100
    Mizik                          100
    Zeon                           100
    Rip                            100
    Dontarion                      100
    Aetous                         100
    Dalran                         100
    Katalyst                       100
    Jarrod                         100
    Poergh                         100
    Corr                           100
    Taraus                         100
    Akia                           100
    Deridius                       100
    Entaro                         100
    Sabiru                         100
    Micaelis                       100
    Xer                            97
    Proficy                        93
    *******************************************************************************
    Looks to me like there should be a blanket discharge for both orgs. Active people can then re-enlist and the people that don't want to be a mark any more but want to save face get an easy out.
    Bluef
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,162 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    It was stated already that inactive people are not receiving contracts. Or so I think I read somewhere in this thread. Not sure. This thing has grown massive. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    It was stated already that inactive people are not receiving contracts. Or so I think I read somewhere in this thread. Not sure. This thing has grown massive. 

    Yup!

    Makarios said:
    Correct. If you've not been logged in, you'll not be in the runnings for a contract that comes up.
    ShirszaeKyriella
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,861 Achaean staff
    The rankings are a bit more relaxed about considering you active.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jurixe said:
    Bluef said:
      By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed. 

    ------------------------------I don't know why quotes don't work, never been able to figure them out------------------------------------

     If your reputation as a character is to such an extent that the majority of the Ivory Marks believe that you do not deserve their time and effort, that is also their prerogative. 
    Except that's not what I stated happened - at all. I've had Marks either offer or accept contracts and then the target complains to a city or House leader. This results in the Mark being told - No. Not her. Anyone but her. Which has a lot more to do with personal prejudices than it does whether someone is deserving of the right to be championed, particularly when the reason people are prejudiced has nothing to do with the validity of the intended contract. 

    This outlook also doesn't take into account the opportunities that Achaea offers for people to start over, roleplay new motivations, receive forgiveness, etc. But that too is, by in large, blocked by the game's mortal leaders far too often. 
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    Members of the Ivory Mark have to assume that the Mark org correctly decided to take the contract, and it is their duty to fulfill it. Ivory Mark members are the sword of the law, not the judge.
    image
    Cesarina
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kinilan said:

    Rangor said:
    I found a problem with the new system.

    How many of these are active, and how many are receiving contracts?

    *******************************[ Mark Rankings ]*******************************
    Assassin                       Reputation           
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Santar                         105
    Hasar                          102
    Trance                         100
    Thiev                          100
    Aodfionn                       100
    Gamdol                         100
    Hirst                          100
    Daloc                          100
    Rennyn                         100
    Shecks                         100
    Taraza                         100
    Rangor                         100
    Otha                           100
    Cathy                          100
    Driden                         100
    Antidas                        100
    Vrass                          100
    Mortifer                       100
    Andraste                       100
    Dunn                           100
    Jinsun                         100
    Kross                          100
    Soujirou                       100
    Strata                         100
    Pharaus                        100
    Mizik                          100
    Zeon                           100
    Rip                            100
    Dontarion                      100
    Aetous                         100
    Dalran                         100
    Katalyst                       100
    Jarrod                         100
    Poergh                         100
    Corr                           100
    Taraus                         100
    Akia                           100
    Deridius                       100
    Entaro                         100
    Sabiru                         100
    Micaelis                       100
    Xer                            97
    Proficy                        93
    *******************************************************************************
    Looks to me like there should be a blanket discharge for both orgs. Active people can then re-enlist and the people that don't want to be a mark any more but want to save face get an easy out.
    Yes, and a probation period when you first join that requires that you complete a contract in the first <X> number of months, perhaps?
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,837 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are two major problems with that:

    1. If you wiped out every Mark any currently active contracts are going to disappear.
    2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Antonius said:
    2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
    Yeah, it's going to be a while until I see a contract because I'm Ivory and not Quisalis.

    Since citizens of cities I'm enemied to will never have a contract come my way that means only Ashtani and Hashani can hire me. And given the nature of those cities there's a big chance that their contracts will be placed with the Quisalis or that it will be against those in the Ivory mark.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    There are two major problems with that:

    1. If you wiped out every Mark any currently active contracts are going to disappear.
    2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
    True. Unless they reworked it so that new marks were at the head of the queue (just once), followed by those with the greatest reputation gains.

    Weren't a bunch of contracts from before the changes already wiped?
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,837 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A bunch on pretty much (or totally) inactive people were wiped. I still have eighteen open from writs though, a lot on targets I very rarely or never see online.
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