Mark selection should be made deterministic, like some sort of work queue, especially if contracts are an uncommon event. Randomness is only evenly distributed at high sample sizes.
Deterministic but with potential for even the lowest tier marks to have a shot at redemption, and with payment as an input factor.
I'm not a mark so I may be talking out of my ass here, but risking that I have two suggestions that may help in the tweaking of the new system:
1. Ivory are champions. Historically at least, Champions knowingly represent somebody who cannot or will not do the deed themselves. It's representative sort of concept. It's also very much self-determined and free-willed. I.e. you don't have to Champion somebody if you don't want to and shouldn't get penalized for it.
As such, Ivory Marks should see who their target it, who the hirer is and what the reason is. They then decide if they want the contract or not. If they accept it and don't fulfill it they get penalized. If they pass on it then they don't get penalized (but also don't get rep boost for completing it). After one passes it, it goes to the next. If mark doesn't make a decision in a RL day, then goes to the next one automatically. After a certain number, maybe 5 and nobody takes it then the hirer gets his money back with a letter saying nobody wanted to take up his cause and represent.
Because they can pass on it, then it should handle any factional issues. Some champions may or may not have various loyalties. That should be left up to the person's individual RP.
Making it so no contracts are assigned to champions who are enemied to the hirer's city (and vice-versa) I don't think is workable as those marks that regularly raid (most if not all good combatants regularly do) will be left out of a lot of potential contracts that they may be morally and otherwise willing to take.
2. On the Quisalis side, my understanding is that they're assassins pure and simple. A contract is a contract, friend, family or whatever shouldn't be an issue. So there shouldn't be any morality issues on this one or the person shouldn't be quisalis.
As this is more of a business model, the organization would want a reputation of effectiveness or nobody would use them. So the organization itself would want to assign contracts to those that could carry them out - though potentially they would cost more to get more. Potentially there could be two rates which are -significantly- different. Say 5,000 min, or a premium cost of 20,000 (or more). The premium contracts go to the top 5 rated marks and the rest go to the rest. If you're hiring somebody for their skill, you should be able to hire the best.
Otherwise, as far as number of contracts, I think the whole system just isn't popularized and known about by a lot of the relatively (last year or so) players. Lots of non combatants around and a lot of them would pay 5k to hire a contract out on a thief for example; and thieving has always been a pretty regularly happening thing. Same for raiding, city leader (assuming no moral qualms) could take out contracts on all raiding on behalf of the city.
The simple truth is that if you're able to see who you're being hired by or on and then decline the contract, people will filter contracts not by their desire to see justice done but rather by their desire to not help certain individuals and avoid taking contracts they could fail.
Generally any element that relies on players being responsible is destined for failure.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
What's up with all these marks complaining about veils? Mark for like 6 rl years and the target owning a veil has -never- been a deciding factor in whether or not I was able to complete a contract.
The simple truth is that if you're able to see who you're being hired by or on and then decline the contract, people will filter contracts not by their desire to see justice done but rather by their desire to not help certain individuals and avoid taking contracts they could fail.
That's generally the difference between a Champion and an Assassin though. The Assassin is hired. It's business. He knows that when he becomes an Assassin.
The Champion is a different agreement. He's a willing representative. If you're an asshole then asking for people to willingly represent you and help you right the injustices of the world is going to be a bit harder. If you don't like that then you can hire an Assassin.
The two organizations need to either actually take on their respective roles and be quite different or they should be combined.
Suladan said: That's generally the difference between a Champion and an Assassin though. The Assassin is hired. It's business. He knows that when he becomes an Assassin. The Champion is a different agreement. He's a willing representative. If you're an asshole then asking for people to willingly represent you and help you right the injustices of the world is going to be a bit harder. If you don't like that then you can hire an Assassin. The two organizations need to either actually take on their respective roles and be quite different or they should be combined.
By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed.
Maybe we don't. But I have had contracts canceled or declined not because the mark didn't empathize or didn't want to take it on, but because leaders in their various organizations made it plain that if they did so they would find life quite difficult moving forward. That means that it isn't always the Mark's choice or about whether someone is worthy of a contract.
There are external forces at play that have nothing to do with anything and that is what the new system, thankfully, removes.
Edit: Damn the inability of these forums to quote anything properly anymore.
So, what is being done about the veils? Are they going to make the system try to auto-select for them? Something?
Nothing needs to be done about veils. Capable Marks have always found ways around them and always will. Less capable Marks will get progressively fewer contracts.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed.
------------------------------I don't know why quotes don't work, never been able to figure them out------------------------------------
If we assume that the Ivory Mark was created purely out of a desire to champion the weak and right injustices for those who cannot seek retribution on their own, then no - everyone has the same right to a champion. That is why the Ivory Mark allows you to attempt to hire Marks to take your contracts as opposed to straight up not allowing you to hire at all.
However. If your reputation as a character is to such an extent that the majority of the Ivory Marks believe that you do not deserve their time and effort, that is also their prerogative. They are mortal and not free from external and internal motivations and influences, and I believe that those conflicts and mortal flaws are what make the world so interesting - that your actions can and should have repercussions. Yes, the Ivory Mark is meant to champion the weak. But what, specifically, is weak? Who is deserving of an Ivory Mark's blade? Who are the innocents? In my ideal world, those in the Ivory Mark would be able to choose and decide this for themselves. That is why you have the Quisalis - assassins who will get the job done for you, no questions asked, whereas an Ivory Mark would have principles and morals that might restrict their contracts, but perhaps lend more 'honour' to their completion.
It also doesn't, and shouldn't matter, if these views by these marks are 'justified' or not. Every character is entitled to their views and grudges and biases, and these dynamics are what make the world interesting. If an Ivory Mark refuses to champion your cause because of your reputation, you have three options: 1) Hire a Quisalis, 2) Repair your reputation, bribe, make amends to the point where the Ivory Mark will consent to aid you, or 3) Grit your teeth in frustration and do nothing, because that is what you have earned. No one has a bad reputation straight off the bat - if you do, you've either earned it, or you've made some very powerful/influential/effective enemies - and that is fine.
I've completely derailed from the main point, I think, so - this new system to me is excellent for the Quisalis, but Ivory Marks might be better served being able to choose their contracts. I realise it is a potential advantage for the Ivory - maybe the Quisalis could earn more gold from their contracts to justify their 'no questions asked' approach, if this is not already the case, whereas Ivory could be cheaper but run the risk of rejection.
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While I think there's a potential for good RP behind it, it's squashed by the fact that it will invariably be abused by some to gain rank in the Ivory Mark. Pass on hard contracts, people who accept them are less likely to get assigned contracts because they have those harder ones to complete, the easier ones go to the people who passed, they gain rank easier. And what happens if every Ivory Mark member passes? The wronged is out of luck?
Members of the Ivory Mark have to assume that the Mark org correctly decided to take the contract, and it is their duty to fulfill it. Ivory Mark members are the sword of the law, not the judge.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
@Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take.
@Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take.
How so? The mark has never (that I'm aware of) stated that they are picky about contracts taken and passed on... why would you assume they were if no contract was ever turned down?
@Jarrod it's hard to buy into that 'must have been valid' RP when I've had 2/3 contracts so far cancelled within two RL days of getting them...
That's a reason for your character to question the Mark org's decisions, and possibly her place in the Mark, but it doesn't have to change the principle that it's not the Mark member's place to decide which contracts to take.
How so? The mark has never (that I'm aware of) stated that they are picky about contracts taken and passed on... why would you assume they were if no contract was ever turned down?
Didn't mean to say they were, just that the actual validity of the contracts, as possibly evidenced by your 2 cancelled ones, doesn't necessarily have to contradict the picture Jarrod was pushing for.
Looks to me like there should be a blanket discharge for both orgs. Active people can then re-enlist and the people that don't want to be a mark any more but want to save face get an easy out.
It was stated already that inactive people are not receiving contracts. Or so I think I read somewhere in this thread. Not sure. This thing has grown massive.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
It was stated already that inactive people are not receiving contracts. Or so I think I read somewhere in this thread. Not sure. This thing has grown massive.
By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed.
------------------------------I don't know why quotes don't work, never been able to figure them out------------------------------------
If your reputation as a character is to such an extent that the majority of the Ivory Marks believe that you do not deserve their time and effort, that is also their prerogative.
Except that's not what I stated happened - at all. I've had Marks either offer or accept contracts and then the target complains to a city or House leader. This results in the Mark being told - No. Not her. Anyone but her. Which has a lot more to do with personal prejudices than it does whether someone is deserving of the right to be championed, particularly when the reason people are prejudiced has nothing to do with the validity of the intended contract.
This outlook also doesn't take into account the opportunities that Achaea offers for people to start over, roleplay new motivations, receive forgiveness, etc. But that too is, by in large, blocked by the game's mortal leaders far too often.
Members of the Ivory Mark have to assume that the Mark org correctly decided to take the contract, and it is their duty to fulfill it. Ivory Mark members are the sword of the law, not the judge.
Looks to me like there should be a blanket discharge for both orgs. Active people can then re-enlist and the people that don't want to be a mark any more but want to save face get an easy out.
Yes, and a probation period when you first join that requires that you complete a contract in the first <X> number of months, perhaps?
1. If you wiped out every Mark any currently active contracts are going to disappear. 2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
Yeah, it's going to be a while until I see a contract because I'm Ivory and not Quisalis.
Since citizens of cities I'm enemied to will never have a contract come my way that means only Ashtani and Hashani can hire me. And given the nature of those cities there's a big chance that their contracts will be placed with the Quisalis or that it will be against those in the Ivory mark.
1. If you wiped out every Mark any currently active contracts are going to disappear. 2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
True. Unless they reworked it so that new marks were at the head of the queue (just once), followed by those with the greatest reputation gains.
Weren't a bunch of contracts from before the changes already wiped?
A bunch on pretty much (or totally) inactive people were wiped. I still have eighteen open from writs though, a lot on targets I very rarely or never see online.
I'd like if it were a bit more strict with the activity requirement, maybe something like what you guys have in place for voting (if I remember that correctly). I've logged in for like 5 minutes total non-consecutive over the past week and some change, but I've got 3 contracts dwindling away under my responsibility! As I write this I realize it may have been relaxed temporarily so as to not have a big period of time where nobody received contracts while they built their playtime, oh well.
The big issue I see here is that both marks are being treated the same when truly they are not. The Quisalis is "Dirty deed, done with sheep dirt cheap" where the Ivory are not in in for the money but do it because it is a cause they believe in. It is by the very purpose of the Ivory, not cloak and dagger.
Putting in fixes like "No contracts from enemies" or control by the city as to who can be hired is essentially a horrible patch fix trying to make a system that makes sense for the Quisalis, also fit the Ivory.
People talk about RP and assuming that the Ivory Mark Denizen has considered these contracts worthy but that is plain bullshit. I can right now go and take out a contract on a innocent noncom with the Ivory and the Mark is supposed to live under the delusion that the contract is legit to his ideals?
Because Ivory Marks do it because they believe in the cause, the reason, the hirer and the target matter. If a Quisalis jumps a target and the target asks "why?" then saying "Sorry buddy, someone put a price on your head" makes sense. How the hell does "I do not know" fit in with the Ivory Mark?
Now can the ability to pass on contracts with no penalty be abused for only getting easy fights? Sure, but it is not going to make much of a difference in the long run. When you refuse a contract, you do not get another one instantly to consider. You passed on it, you wait till the next assignment and the Ivory that does not pass on the contract because he is the better fighter reaps the rewards.
So you might not go down, but you are not going up as fast as the better Marks that can take these harder contracts or even the dodgy ones. So essentially your ability to pass on contracts does not put you in a better position than someone who takes more of them or even takes bad contracts. You are not at an advantage and the good/sneaky Ivory Marks go up and receive more contracts.
I am all for RPing freedom. You can be an Ivory that takes contracts from enemies, limiting this and putting it in the hands of the city to decide for their people is not the right way to control this. the counterbalance to these cases is the consequences. If you hire an enemy mark and he agrees, the target might inform the city and you can get in trouble. If you are an Ivory Mark that takes dodgy contracts, people will talk about that and this can be handled in other ways.
Basically all I would change is this:
1. Make the reason and Hirer visible to the Ivory Mark.
2, Give the Ivory Mark the option to decline a contract at no or very little loss in points (1/5th a normal loss for eg)
There is no need for hard coded control for cities, people who RP "Bad Ivory Mark" will have the in game consequences to deal with and people who keep passing on contracts they consider too hard or not worthy will simply not advance as fast as the ones who can complete those contracts so passing on them is not a massive benefit but in fact a detriment in the long run.
Ive noticed that now a target of a contract has no idea the contract has been placed, its easier than ever to hire 50 (exaggerated) marks on one person and have them attacked/killed constantly without any way for the contract victim to identify whether or not these contracts are actually valid.
Case in point: If I attack someone, they can just hire on me until they are poor, and I cant issue them for excessive 'attacks via mark system' until after Ive negated the contract through death or killing the mark. Likewise I wouldnt even have to attack someone at all, they could just not like me (hard to believe right?!) and then just do the same thing which means I have to suffer through the process until I can establish that xxx person is being a griefer and abusing the mark system.
Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I figured I would bump the thread either way.
Comments
Deterministic but with potential for even the lowest tier marks to have a shot at redemption, and with payment as an input factor.
Generally any element that relies on players being responsible is destined for failure.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
By your logic, players like me, who may be unpopular or perceived as assholes, don't deserve the same right as everyone else to be championed.
Maybe we don't. But I have had contracts canceled or declined not because the mark didn't empathize or didn't want to take it on, but because leaders in their various organizations made it plain that if they did so they would find life quite difficult moving forward. That means that it isn't always the Mark's choice or about whether someone is worthy of a contract.
There are external forces at play that have nothing to do with anything and that is what the new system, thankfully, removes.
Edit: Damn the inability of these forums to quote anything properly anymore.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
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Members of the Ivory Mark have to assume that the Mark org correctly decided to take the contract, and it is their duty to fulfill it. Ivory Mark members are the sword of the law, not the judge.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Honourable, knight eternal,
Darkly evil, cruel infernal.
Necromanctic to the core,Dance with death forever more.
Honourable, knight eternal,
Darkly evil, cruel infernal.
Necromanctic to the core,Dance with death forever more.
Looks to me like there should be a blanket discharge for both orgs. Active people can then re-enlist and the people that don't want to be a mark any more but want to save face get an easy out.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
Yup!
This outlook also doesn't take into account the opportunities that Achaea offers for people to start over, roleplay new motivations, receive forgiveness, etc. But that too is, by in large, blocked by the game's mortal leaders far too often.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
1. If you wiped out every Mark any currently active contracts are going to disappear.
2. There's no guarantee that a new Mark is even going to get a contract in their first X months, let alone complete it.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Weren't a bunch of contracts from before the changes already wiped?
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
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