Heartseed redux

Santar

I heard that heartseed is an instakill that isn't too hard to set up and pull off correctly.

Is this true or false?

Strata

Jovolo said:

One day, you might come to terms with the fact people don't disagree with you just because of the faction you play in a game. Erk phone spelling

Nah it's 100% faction based. Want the browser plugin for it? TargAutoWTF.js

Penwize

Shecks said:

The only difference between @Exelethril's insult and my own, is that you're all (aside from Penwize) on the same side IG, but it meant the same thing, and was just as offensive.  You guys use flagging like you use issues - just another way to metagame and troll people outside of the game that you can't touch in game.  Or can anyone honestly say that they think @Exelethril's feelings are hurt?  I doubt that even entered your minds.  Just another way to "win".

Get a life, people.

@Shecks: To clarify why I think it deserved a flag, there is a fundamental difference between making fun of a comment (Exelethril's post) versus a straight up insult (your post).  One of those crosses the line.  Had you instead responded with your own smartassed comment in the same spirit and tone as Exelethril's was, you'd have got lols instead of abuse flags.

Naisar

An undiadem'd Heartseed isn't very difficult to avoid, but it does require paying attention to your torso.  And shielding at the right time.

Adding damage to the heartseed cure was fantastic because it meant having a broken limb was actually something you want to fix, although I think the massive equilibrium time to apply it reduces a lot of its effectiveness in damage setups.  Oh, and fyi I think if you get the sip penalty affliction by lacerating twice it counts as a limb for hseed damage.  Someone should see if that stacks with a broken head, I don't remember.

Santar

Not sure what the point of even discussing an "undiadem'd" heartseed is. It should be assumed that at the highest level of combat, people will have basic artefacts for their class.

Penwize

Santar said:

Not sure what the point of even discussing an "undiadem'd" heartseed is. It should be assumed that at the highest level of combat, people will have basic artefacts for their class.

That's not entirely valid honestly.  Unartied classes still need to have their kills be viable, if more difficult to pull off.  Otherwise you wind up with cases where unartied, a class is completely incapable of killing a basic curing system.

Santar

That's not what I said at all.

The subject is, "Is heartseed too strong?" If we're going to decide if it's too strong or not, we need to consider the abillity in the state that most good fighters are going to be using it: with diadem.

Naisar posted saying that "undiademed heartseed can be avoided", which isn't really the concern we're looking at here.  We're discussing whether it's too powerful/mostly unstoppable when used as it's highest potential. His reply was akin to addressing artied monk icon damage with a response of, "Well, 11 strength tekura is pretty easy to survive."

Jovolo

The short answer is no, it isn't too strong, unless you have anything to add to your comment on being able to roll an alt and kill anyone in the game in less than sixty seconds. 

The damage they can potentially output is something else entirely.

Kuy

Shecks said:

The only difference between @Exelethril's insult and my own, is that you're all (aside from Penwize) on the same side IG, but it meant the same thing, and was just as offensive.  You guys use flagging like you use issues - just another way to metagame and troll people outside of the game that you can't touch in game.  Or can anyone honestly say that they think @Exelethril's feelings are hurt?  I doubt that even entered your minds.  Just another way to "win".

Get a life, people.

Abuse flags, in order:

Ex-Mhaldor (currently cityless), Mhaldor, Eleusis, Targossas, Hashan (I think).

Proof that Targossas hates you and you should hate you, too.

Santar

I'll do some number testing later with a Sylvan to see if the kill combo is actually unstoppable. Not being a sylvan, I haven't tested the timing, obv.

Kafziel

Heartseed is 4.3 seconds EQ with diadem/quick-witted so with restoration being 4s I can't see it being unstoppable.

Santar

What's EQ on thornrend?

Kuy

Santar said:

What's EQ on thornrend?

Around 2.5, I've heard and felt.

Naisar

Personally I've always believed that a good-faith effort should be made to balance skills for unartefacted combatants as well as the top tier.  There are skilled players out there who don't have the time or money to acquire 800 credits for an artefact, and I think they deserve to have a decent combat experience as well.  Plus, every time you gate a feature behind investment you lose population.  See ships.  Anyway, not the point of this thread.

These are from my notes when I fought as Sylvan, but nothing was tested extensively.

Thornrend:  2.7s

Holocaust: 5.2s

Heartseed: ~5s eq, 11 second until kill, 6 seconds until message

Eclipse: ~3s eq

Illusion: 1.8s

Erode: 2.2s

Lacerate: 2.7s

Transfix: 2.8s

Swing Staff: 1.8s

Edit: Oh, none of these are with diadem, I think everything there is with quick-witted

Xith

Naisar said:

Personally I've always believed that a good-faith effort should be made to balance skills for unartefacted combatants as well as the top tier.  There are skilled players out there who don't have the time or money to acquire 800 credits for an artefact, and I think they deserve to have a decent combat experience as well.  Plus, every time you gate a feature behind investment you lose population.  See ships.  Anyway, not the point of this thread.

These are from my notes when I fought as Sylvan, but nothing was tested extensively.

Thornrend:  2.7s

Holocaust: 5.2s

Heartseed: ~5s eq, 11 second until kill, 6 seconds until message

Eclipse: ~3s eq

Illusion: 1.8s

Erode: 2.2s

Lacerate: 2.7s

Transfix: 2.8s

Swing Staff: 1.8s

Edit: Oh, none of these are with diadem, I think everything there is with quick-witted

Holo is about 5.4 with quick-witted, seems about 9.1 with aldar-- oh wait, I'm lagging like crazy. But normally should be around 4.5 with aldar, unless sylvan balance is different.

(Pretty sure Achaea just crashed or something)

Florentino

@Santar's comments reflects a game design mentality that's really bad for the future growth/development of Achaea. What's to encourage real newcomers to IRE to stick around if the barriers to entry around combat keep escalating? Combat artefact and level creep have been growing steadily the past few years at a time when other avenues of entertainment that don't require investment (riddles, quizzes, bardics/artisanals) have been on a severe decline. I don't know to what extent @Tecton @Sarapis are thinking about this but it's worth flagging - maybe making a separate thread for somewhere else.

Strata

Florentino said:

@Santar's comments reflects a game design mentality that's really bad for the future growth/development of Achaea. What's to encourage real newcomers to IRE to stick around if the barriers to entry around combat keep escalating? Combat artefact and level creep have been growing steadily the past few years at a time when other avenues of entertainment that don't require investment (riddles, quizzes, bardics/artisanals) have been on a severe decline. I don't know to what extent @Tecton @Sarapis are thinking about this but it's worth flagging - maybe making a separate thread for somewhere else.

I disagree with this because many of the things IRE has been doing are attempting to bring actual new players to the game. The artefact and level creep is mostly from long-time experienced players who have been alting for 10+ years. Those players also pretty much pay the bills so those who are new or want a new avenue of entertainment, can do riddles, quizzes, bardics, etc.

I've heard talk before about people asking IRE to make a system where you can get real/useful artefacts and such by doing quests - but it's a dangerous proposition because once the quests are figured out, all of those alt players will create new characters, artie out, and not pay a dime to IRE. So it's probably not easy to find a middleground where everyone is happy. If you have the means, artie out. If you don't, tough shit. Either way, it's good to be thankful that you can still telnet to a different world in 2014.

Trevize

Strata said:

Florentino said:

@Santar's comments reflects a game design mentality that's really bad for the future growth/development of Achaea. What's to encourage real newcomers to IRE to stick around if the barriers to entry around combat keep escalating? Combat artefact and level creep have been growing steadily the past few years at a time when other avenues of entertainment that don't require investment (riddles, quizzes, bardics/artisanals) have been on a severe decline. I don't know to what extent @Tecton @Sarapis are thinking about this but it's worth flagging - maybe making a separate thread for somewhere else.

I disagree with this because many of the things IRE has been doing are attempting to bring actual new players to the game. The artefact and level creep is mostly from long-time experienced players who have been alting for 10+ years. Those players also pretty much pay the bills so those who are new or want a new avenue of entertainment, can do riddles, quizzes, bardics, etc.

I've heard talk before about people asking IRE to make a system where you can get real/useful artefacts and such by doing quests - but it's a dangerous proposition because once the quests are figured out, all of those alt players will create new characters, artie out, and not pay a dime to IRE. So it's probably not easy to find a middleground where everyone is happy. If you have the means, artie out. If you don't, tough shit. Either way, it's good to be thankful that you can still telnet to a different world in 2014.

I think that's what talismans are intended for, long-term.

Shecks

Dragon is the poor man's artie.  Anyone can bash for dragon.  Anyone can also bash millions of gold in a few RL days with relative ease, and buy a ton of arties, as a dragon.  Iron elite membership is also incredibly cheap, and gives you massive payouts for a fraction of the price of my phone bill.

Becoming Jhui overnight might not be an option for everyone, but Jhui's inventory didn't happen overnight, either.

IRT new players, it's not just the arties, its the skill level.  Nobody can be expected to start the game and compete with people that've been PVPing for 10+ years.  That's just the name of the game.

Naisar

Millions of gold?  Christ, have I been doing it wrong

Shecks

I can make a million gold in game in 2-3 days, pretty easily.  That's artied, though.  Nothing that an unartied dragon with a TF and runes can't do though.

Penwize

A million gold in 3 days is about 42k gold per hour for 8 hours for 3 days.  That's definitely possible if all you do is bash and maintain that constant gold rate the whole 8 hours, but that's actually pushing the boundaries of realistic a bit.  I certainly wouldn't call it "pretty easily" when that's a hell of a lot of bashing for most people.  I could do it (and have done more than that before), but I'm not exactly an average, unartied dragon, and I have some significant advantages in mobility most people don't have access to.

Cooper

He said millions, not a single million, and he said you can do it with ease.

Jovolo

Shecks was caught being less than truthful again? The surprise

Shecks

Lol, and the the trolls show up to call me stupid for stating a simple mathematical fact. Only a true forum lawyer would argue the plurality of a single word to base a theory regarding my stupidity on. The fact is, it's remains true. A simple DJ/annwhn loop will net at least 4-500k gold a day, and ya know its true. Have fun picking over my grammar, vultures.

Penwize

400k gold in a day is 8 hours of bashing at 50k/hour, which I think is more than a DK/Annwyn loop can produce for an unartied dragon, but it's close.  Realistically, if you're going to try to farm DKs and Annwyn for 8 hours straight, you're not going to get the full bashing time in, for a couple of reasons.  Firstly, they're very popular areas that a lot of people hunt, so sharing them is going to cut into your profits.  Secondly, they're open PK areas, so you're very likely to get jumped or otherwise interrupted while there.

That kind of gold production is not likely for an unartied dragon playing Achaea less than 8 hours a day.

Dorn

Assuming Penwize's math is accurate, which you haven't refuted, that assumes bashing 10-12 hours a day.

While I won't argue this is certainly possible, and some people might find it enjoyable even, I'd kind of question why you're doing it, personally. Granted, I find bashing to be a form of punishment, so I'm biased, but still - at that point why aren't you just playing a Cookie Clicker clone? All you're really doing is watching numbers climb anyway, and you can mas- read interesting literature and philosophical debates while watching Cookie Clicker clones at work.

A million inside a week, yeah, that's easily imaginable - 42k/hour, 3 hours/day, 3 hours of bashing doesn't seem unreasonable if you're intent on getting gold and don't hate it.

3 days just stretches credulity to me. 2 days is getting into '@Nemutaur you do remember your meatshell needs hydration and nutrition right?' territory.

(1 day, I'd only believe that if there was an auction on for a Hat of the Eagle)

Nemutaur

Dorn said:

3 days just stretches credulity to me. 2 days is getting into '@Nemutaur you do remember your meatshell needs hydration and nutrition right?' territory.

No curr, it was semester break and I wanted dragon claws! Anyway back to the monies, I think Unsidhe are worth 8k, Sidhe are worth 20k if you're lucky. But you really do have to time it well and if you've got horrible luck a city mate is already doing them and you can't really go and kill them.

Antonius

Average run of Sidhe isn't anywhere near 20k, more like 12-13k in my experience.

Cooper

Sidhe average about 10k ignoring the solo ones, unsidhe about the same. You can't average 50k an hour doing annwyn and dks even if no one else touches anything.