Misogyny from IG to OOC

Taraus

Tania said:

You know, things which aren't reality already?.... 

... orcs, elves, Sirens, Atavians, leviathans, kraken, I could go on forever.

ahem, I respectfully disagree.

Adalie

I'll reiterate and expand my point from earlier in a bit of agreement with Tania. There is nothing wrong with a male character's motivation stemming from these things, but that it's basically EVERY male character's motivation always is pretty frustrating. (Like I said, I don't mind a damsel in distress story; the problem is that they're ALL damsel in distress stories).

I would like to add that I don't mind misogyny at all when it's being used as a plot device. I think this is quite possibly the case in the new GTA, but I can't say for sure because I haven't played it. Generally, when we see racism in movies nowadays, we accept it as purposeful. That character is that way for a reason, and that reason in some way advances the plot.

Very rarely do we watch a movie with a racist character and get mad because it's racist. Instead, we accept that it was racism with a point. I believe that if a game or movie does it well, misogyny could work the same way (I like to think of the show Mad Men as a successful use of misogyny as a plot decive). The issue is that it's hardly ever being intentionally used that way and is instead just a product of misogyinst thinking influencing the creators. (Which then influences the players, who then grow up to make games ... Wash, rinse, repeat.)

Skye

Tania said:

Something existing in reality is not a requirement for video games, and it isn't a good argument against equality in video games. It doesn't have to be a utopia.

I actually had a similar discussion recently (this seems to be the popular subject as of late), and the best answer I can give (and this is largely a YMMV / depends on your personal preference) is that there must be a grounding set of principles to lend credence to the fantastic. I naturally don't expect you to agree, and we can all agree to disagree.

Of course, a video game it's very easy to ignore those things thanks to the game mechanics. In Achaea, you don't piss, poop, fart, get pregnant or have periods unless you want to. The fact that it is a MUD also means that a large amount of the sexism would come from the playerbase. However, when I think about it narratively, it becomes harder to ignore.

As to why it's always the same motivation. It's true that it's tired and lazy, but it's also tried and true. The loss of a loved one is something that everyone can empathize with, and the loss of your (for the foreseeable future) True Love™ is considered the most painful of all. Though, to be fair, I don't exactly expect most of my contemporary games to have any particularly compelling storyline. I believe that most plots are really just variations of certain narrative themes so my standards for narrative originality are probably a lot lower.

Trilliana

I'm probably going to sound like a terrible person, but if something happened to my husband, kids, or other family or friends, I'd do all I could to make sure whoever hurt them or whatever got punished-- though that's probably why I want to go to NM so much to find who killed my brother in law. It's a HUMAN reaction to try to seek revenge or save the people we love. I honestly don't see why it's all a big deal. I don't see things as "oh that's a man. that's a woman. she died, man gets revenge." I -really- don't. Gender reversal, same thing. IDGAF, motivation is motivation.

"Very rarely do we watch a movie with a racist character and get mad because it's racist."
I remember SO much talk about American History X because of the racist overtones. And that was before I'd ever seen it.


Then again, my opinion is that I do what I do to relax, to have fun. I've been a "victim" of many many things because of my gender, interests, sexuality. But I refuse to call myself a true victim. I'm a survivor, that's all I see it as. Fighting to survive. Games, movies, TV... it's supposed to be dramatic and entertaining. Otherwise, what's the point in it being there. Imagine an  (American) football game without tackles. Not entertaining, because there is no drama. Imagine a tennis game that literally went on forever because there was no real reason for competition- boring as all hell (then again, I find tennis to be boring anyway, but I digress)

I'm watching Mulan with my kids (my son is obsessed) and you can see what sort of world they lived in- if she was found out, she would be killed. It's a huge point to the film (and I believe the RL story had the same idea, but she turned out to be one of the Emperor's concubines.) I don't see that as a big plot point- it's the journey, it's who she was and who she became that makes the story.

Little Mermaid was just as bad- original story- either kill the prince or become sea foam, and so she became sea foam because she loved the prince too much (though one version that I watch- the 1975ish anime- it had very Christian overtones because she got into heaven instead of becoming foam, don't know if that's in the original because I actually haven't read it)

In most stories, it's about love being an all-powerful force, love of people, love of power, love of riches...  or as they put it in City Slickers there's always that ONE thing that you should find in your life.



and I'm done rambling with my feverish self and I'm done reading this thread because, to be honest, I don't find it entertaining, it's angering and frustrating. Now if only I could find a way to ignore this one thread without ignoring the entire "folder"

Adalie

I don't understand your point about American History X, @Trilliana. People talked about it because it was shocking, of course, but are you trying to say that the racism in that movie isn't put there intentionally as a plot device? My point was that racism exists (not always but pretty close) in popular media like movies and video games now more for a reason rather than "just because," but the latter is where I still see sexism fitting in, which is the problem. American History X would be a perfect example for my point, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at there.

I also don't understand what you mean about Mulan. In that movie, misogyny is used as a device, so that's what I think is a totally fitting way to use it. Her journey makes the story, sure, but the story would have never been written if she weren't a woman and doing the things women "shouldn't" do, so discounting her sexuality there makes no sense to me.

Edit: I guess to put it more simply (there's a good chance I'm just being super confusing): Crappy stuff (racism, sexism, etc) being used in popular media to function as commentary of rather than an endorsement of the behavior is fine by me. But I don't see it going that way with sexism most of the time. Most of the time sexism exists in a game or movie because someone in charge was just actually sexist and didn't see a problem with it. (end of edit)

I do get what you mean about love being such a driving force, though. I just don't see why "everyone can relate to love" has to equate to "look how much women need to be half naked and rescued all the time."

Also, I realize I'm replying to someone who just said they wouldn't come back to the thread, but that's basically the equivalent of doing whatever it takes to get the last word in an argument and then running away or going "la la I can't hear you" so you can say what you want and then ignore the other person's response ... which is ridiculous to me. (Sorry. I just mean don't join in if you don't want to be a part of the discussion. Why do that?) But even if she doesn't come back, maybe someone else would be willing to continue to discuss the points she brought up.

Vansittart

Adalie said:

I'll reiterate and expand my point from earlier in a bit of agreement with Tania. There is nothing wrong with a male character's motivation stemming from these things, but that it's basically EVERY male character's motivation always is pretty frustrating. (Like I said, I don't mind a damsel in distress story; the problem is that they're ALL damsel in distress stories). I would like to add that I don't mind misogyny at all when it's being used as a plot device. I think this is quite possibly the case in the new GTA, but I can't say for sure because I haven't played it. Generally, when we see racism in movies nowadays, we accept it as purposeful. That character is that way for a reason, and that reason in some way advances the plot. Very rarely do we watch a movie with a racist character and get mad because it's racist. Instead, we accept that it was racism with a point. I believe that if a game or movie does it well, misogyny could work the same way (I like to think of the show Mad Men as a successful use of misogyny as a plot decive). The issue is that it's hardly ever being intentionally used that way and is instead just a product of misogyinst thinking influencing the creators. (Which then influences the players, who then grow up to make games ... Wash, rinse, repeat.)

There's an interesting distinction, though, between games and films.  Films are linear stories which are told *at* you.  We don't get mad at racism in films any more, because generally speaking films don't endorse overt racism any more.  A racist character will be depicted as "bad", or will learn the error of his ways (like in American History X).  Films do not endorse racism, in fact they usually endorse the opposition of racism.

For some games, particularly sandbox games like GTA (and Achaea for that matter) racism can be much more problematic if it isn't handled properly.  Because the game allows you to dictate the narrative potentially producing a product which does, through the story the game producer and the player jointly make, endorse racism.  These games, especially the multiplayer ones, thrive on conflict.  You need evil players, and good players opposing each other.  So if you set up a faction that is explicitly racist, some players will play that faction, will roleplay in a racist way, and I do think that's a problem.

Lord knows people have enough trouble here separating themselves from their characters even if they are playing an insectoid, mace-wielding priest of retributive justice.  It is significantly harder to maintain that separation the more your game world looks or feels like the real one.

So I think film-makers obligations are simpler, and more easily satisfied than game-makers - particularly in a sandbox, open environment.  Don't even get me started on the implicit right wing politics of the Fable 3 end-game, for example.

Tania

Like I said to Kelsey the other day - can't a guy just save his bro once in a while? Or have his brother, not his scantily-clad sister be the catalyst to his story? Or his father's murder? Instead of his wife/sister/girlfriend/daughter? Do men not love other men in a way that is equally compelling to the way they love women?

Aepas

Tania said:

The characters in Alien weren't written with genders in mind. Which is why casting a woman as a lead worked, because she was a person first and a woman second.

  

Well, as we know the original writing of alien was actually called "Star Beast" and the lead character was very male. Ridley Scott (one of the best directors ever) decided that a female was a much better lead for the role. And really, it was. Ripley as a female is way more bad ass and adds an entirely new dynamic to the movie want it or not. Ripley as a female adds a lot more horror and progression while Ripley as a male just seems like it would be boring.

Orzaansyn

Tania said:

Like I said to Kelsey the other day - can't a guy just save his bro once in a while? Or have his brother, not his scantily-clad sister be the catalyst to his story? Or his father's murder? Instead of his wife/sister/girlfriend/daughter? Do men not love other men in a way that is equally compelling to the way they love women?

That happens. You do not watch/read the good things.

Aepas

Jhaeli said:

Aepas said:

(2) So anyways, this is what sells. Males are still the current dominant marketing figure in video games, so they will target us. This stuff has been engrained in our brains from a young age, and I personally feel disney has plenty to do with it, because those are most of the shining examples I can think of. and hell, let's not forget those late 80/early 90 action flicks.

(2) This is a bleepin' myth and one that needs to be smashed to pieces. A male dominated video game industry hasn't existed since the 90s. There is a significant female demographic buying the SAME games as men. In fact, I would be willing to bet significant cash that, when it comes to buying and playing video games of all kinds on a regular basis, it's getting close to 50/50 overall, even with all the women who masquerade as men just to avoid much of the BS women run into in popular multiplayer games. 

Uh oh, now we're on the topic of myths. You have said that there is a significant demographic of women buying the SAME games as men.

http://img04.bgstatic-com.de/images/documents/documents/1662/modulecontent/612x0/lol_info2.jpg

Okay, so there is the LoL stats chart. Over 90% are male at 4.1 million.

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/59178/_1379473527.jpg

Here is a micro poll containing 1500 people. It's a tiny poll I know but it does show that while the female percentage is lower, they are spending more money on app based games.

Nielsen Games offered up a poll containing 180,000 people, breaking down the sex barrier as such.
Sims 3:  65%F / 35%M
COD (computer): 30%F / 70%M
WOW: 42%F / 58%M
Half-life 2: 22%F / 78%M

So statistics show us that really, females are not buying and playing the SAME games at the SAME strength as men. We all have different tastes. So I did say that sex sells, but it was not meant to be a complete truth. Many games are known to attract a male heavy audience. So in those games, sex is going to sell higher. Games that will already attract a high base of males.  I did say that males are a dominant figure in games and that is still true to the AAA market. Yes there are plenty of female gamers and no disrespect, but it's been shown they spend more money on mobile games, and less on the AAA titles.

The gap is closing and very quickly but as it stands, the market is currently targeted to males because that is where more money is made. This is not a "Myth". I do honestly think that within the next ten years we will see a proper balance shift, however. I really do want to see a lot of things changed, and I'd love to see a better 50/50 split in gaming.

Adalie

Edit: Ignore this please. I hit "quote" and it wasn't quoting right (everything was running together all crazy), but I couldn't see that before I posted the comment and now I can't delete it.

Adalie

Orzaansyn said:

Tania said:

Like I said to Kelsey the other day - can't a guy just save his bro once in a while? Or have his brother, not his scantily-clad sister be the catalyst to his story? Or his father's murder? Instead of his wife/sister/girlfriend/daughter? Do men not love other men in a way that is equally compelling to the way they love women?

That happens. You do not watch/read the good things.

I suppose "good" could be subjective, but I'm willing to bet she reads/watches/plays popular things. If you have to dig and search to find something outside of that problematic norm we're discussing then there is still a problem.

Tania

I noticed no example given, either.

Aepas

Tania said:

I noticed no example given, either.

Well you could ask for some. I noticed that you gave no sources when you stated that Alien was not written with genders, quite factually. In fact many comments have been stated like this.

This is a touchy topic where many people believe they are correct, so everyone that discusses the topic has to be careful to know when they are expressing their opinions and when they are trying to make facts. If you wish to state something as a fact, let's back it up with some evidence. If you want to state your opinion, go ahead! Just make sure it's known to be one or the other.

anyways, let me ftfy

Tania said:

Could you give some examples as to what you were talking about? I rarely see any of that.

Adalie

Aepas said:

anyways, let me ftfy

Tania said:

Could you give some examples as to what you were talking about? I rarely see any of that.

This seems unnecessarily antagonistic. 

In any case, it's not ridiculous for someone to hope you might include examples to illustrate your point. Why don't you go ahead and share with us rather than being so argumentative? I'm sure most of the people involved in this discussion would love to look into some media with less sexist themes. Do tell!

Aepas

Adalie said:

Aepas said:

anyways, let me ftfy

Tania said:

Could you give some examples as to what you were talking about? I rarely see any of that.

This seems unnecessarily antagonistic. 

In any case, it's not ridiculous for someone to hope you might include examples to illustrate your point. Why don't you go ahead and share with us rather than being so argumentative? I'm sure most of the people involved in this discussion would love to look into some media with less sexist themes. Do tell!

You're right. It was rather antagonistic. The main issue I end up having with arguments like this is when things begin to be stated as facts rather than opinions. I'll gladly go on all day about opinions on the matter, but as soon as someone begins to state "facts" that are incorrect I degress into irritability. So! I'll offer my apology to @Tania.

To reflect a bit on Orzaansyn's post I'd say that Legend of Dragoon had a pretty epic bromance. Dart and Lavitz became great friends through their escape of Helena prison, and in the end it was Lavitz that died and Dart spent most of the game trying to avenge his best friend. 

The game Heavy Rain was completely about a father trying to save his son.

While the movie "The princess bride" is indeed about a damsel in distress, there was a very beloved character who's entire role was based entirely off of his father's death.

But the more I stop to think about it, the more I realize it doesn't matter. Sure some people might be set off about having the female always be in distress, but I've never actually seen it like that. What's in distress is simply something you can relate to. I can tell you that I'll be much more willing to save my loved one than I would be a friend. This goes similarly for children if I had any. Keep in mind that men like to speak a lot of the "Man Law" as well. Men in movies and possibly real life are more likely to avenge another man than they are to save them.

Chryenth

I'm going to weight in because I feel we're talking about books now.

1) Read Mistborn.

2) Realise that the female isn't always in distress - sometimes, she's the main Hero.

3) ?

4) Profit from said knowledge.

I cannot, off the top of my head, recall the last time I read a book that was 'Man saves Woman because of reasons!'

Orzaansyn

Adalie said:

Orzaansyn said:

Tania said:

Like I said to Kelsey the other day - can't a guy just save his bro once in a while? Or have his brother, not his scantily-clad sister be the catalyst to his story? Or his father's murder? Instead of his wife/sister/girlfriend/daughter? Do men not love other men in a way that is equally compelling to the way they love women?

That happens. You do not watch/read the good things.

I suppose "good" could be subjective, but I'm willing to bet she reads/watches/plays popular things. If you have to dig and search to find something outside of that problematic norm we're discussing then there is still a problem.

I meant good as in "proper way", not as in quality. But I do agree with @Aepas on the point that in cultural products, males are aswell preassured as females relatively to civilisation's point of view of what a male should be. It is maybe more obvious when it comes to touch a minority, but no human being is safe from it. My favourite character in Harry Potter is Severus. Why? He has the look of the perfect villain candidate from film 1. He has been bullied when young because he was brilliant. He felt in love with a girl who prefered the popular guy to him, and moreover one of the bullies.

I am maybe utopist, or dumb, but I will say what I think about it. I do not think the minorities representations in cultural products is really an issue by itself. How many of us thinks that any German is a Nazi because WWII is 99% of what we know of that country? In my opinion, "minorities issues" does not exists. There are only human beings vs civilisation. Civilization, with technology as center, is built on the principles of standardization, efficiency, linearity and fragmentation. In the experience that we do every day of civilization, the most mundane activities such as waiting in line for a sandwich or obey traffic signals are voluntary acts of participation to the mechanical civilization. Therefore, the notion of "human being" becomes blurred through the disappearance of features which represents it. Human beings are -all- different, and whatever laws you do, you won't change genetics. But technology, and the massive and pervasive control of the flow of informations and perceptions, handle most interactions and contribute to a distance towards reality, through the control the representations of society in order to enclose humanity in sub groups challenging ones to another, and making their mind busy about it instead of seeking for global improvment of life itself. Civilization is actually a trauma to the concept of human beings, because we are not naturally able to adapt to it. Civilization does not exist to meet the needs of human beings, and is not capable of. Desires and behavior of human beings should actually be modified to meet the needs of civilization.

Vansittart

@Orzaansyn: "In my opinion, "minorities issues" does not exist".  Said no-one who wasn't a straight white person ever.  Leaving aside the grammar, this is wrong, and dangerous.

Let's take gay rights for a starter - you really think there is no issue there?  No prejudice, legal and social?  No problem that ought to be solved?  Similarly, with race issues?  Look at the outcomes for blacks, and other minorities vs those for whites.  Read some academic literature - a great example is the research that was done showing that the positive response rates for a CV that is sent out with a "black" name are massively lower than those for the exact same CV sent out with a "white" name.  This isn't an issue that arises out of modernity, and the flow of information - it's a race issue or, as you put it, a "minority" issue.

The issues you raise, of course, do exist but blinding yourself to the other issues that exist within that framework - like racism, sexism, homophobia - only makes it harder to correct them.  It bolsters actual racism, sexism and homophobia, both structural and personal.

Orzaansyn

No, you don't understand what I meant. I do not deny that actual racism, sexism and homophobia exists, and I do not deny people suffers about it.  What I meant is that those issues are created by civilisation, to serve civilisation, and it should be taken as a human being problem, and not as a sub group problem. What I mean is that we are debating about sub groups challenging other sub groups, whatever they are, and that is quite a distraction that prevents humanity to grow.

Vansittart

But that's just a statement of the obvious.  Of course social issues arise in the context of society - why does that need saying at all?  But you go beyond that to claim that "minories issues do not exist" - that's not a helpful thing to believe, or say, because it naturally leads to minimising those issues, instead of revealing them and putting them in clear focus.  It's the background belief to terrible white people who say things like "But I suffer racism too!" because hey, we're all just people, and people all have problems, and I understand the black experience because someone was mean to me once.

 

Tania

Orz(name I can't spell or scroll to see on my phone), did you just say equality is a minorities issue? (And an issue that doesn't exist?) Because 1) women are half the population, not a minority, and 2) the minorities that are minorities can't do much without the help of the majority. Us white folks have to recognise that we do have privilege. We're literally the ones in power, if you look at most government officials.

And if someone brings up Obama, you're stupid, because I said most and not all.

Iocun

Orzaansyn said:

No, you don't understand what I meant. I do not deny that actual racism, sexism and homophobia exists, and I do not deny people suffers about it.  What I meant is that those issues are created by civilisation, to serve civilisation, and it should be taken as a human being problem, and not as a sub group problem. What I mean is that we are debating about sub groups challenging other sub groups, whatever they are, and that is quite a distraction that prevents humanity to grow.

Sure, you can try to improve humanity in its entirety and, by making all people in this world less hateful in general, resolve all forms of discrimination as a side effect. I'm looking forward to the day you manage to achieve that.

But until then, countless people are still suffering from very specific forms of discrimination, which could be addressed and fought to a reasonable degree right now.

You may call this a "distraction" or consider it an undue focus on symptoms of more fundamental problems, but I'd rather spend time and energy on fighting such "symptoms" that can be fought and thus directly help people, than waiting for the grand solution that will cure humanity at its core.

Nakari

Orzaansyn said:

No, you don't understand what I meant. I do not deny that actual racism, sexism and homophobia exists, and I do not deny people suffers about it.  What I meant is that those issues are created by civilisation, to serve civilisation, and it should be taken as a human being problem, and not as a sub group problem. What I mean is that we are debating about sub groups challenging other sub groups, whatever they are, and that is quite a distraction that prevents humanity to grow.

I'm not sure why you think we're talking about 'sub groups challenging other sub groups'. I'm pretty sure that the entire problem here was about patriarchal norms in society, which ensnare and repress both genders. This isn't about men vs. women or something like that, as you have men who dislike patriarchal norms and women who support them. 

Basically, the way I read your clarification, it seems like your point is only supporting the argument that sexism is a big deal and needs to be dealt with.

Also, no one's denying that there are video games, books and the like that do use better character motivations or have female protagonists, the problem, as has been said, is, particularly in video games, the massive disparity. Since we're beginning to call for sources or evidence (which is generally a good idea, I think), I'll just stick Anita Sarkeesian's list of games that include damsels to be rescued from this century.

Onimusha: Warlords (2001)
The Bouncer (2001)
TimeSplitters 2 (2002)
Rygar: The Legendary Adventure (2002)
Kingdom Hearts (2002)
Maximo: Ghosts to Glory (2002)
Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance (2002)
Grabbed by the Ghoulies (2003)
Will Rock (2003)
TimeSplitters: Future Perfect (2005)
Resident Evil 4 (2005)
Red Steel (2006)
Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword (2008)
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones (2005)
Devil May Cry 4 (2008)
Prototype (2009)
Ghostbusters: The Video Game (2009)
Splatterhouse (2010)
Ninja Gaiden (2004)
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II (2010)
Alan Wake (2010)
The Void (2009)
Child of Eden (2011)
Max Payne 3 (2012)
Asura's Wrath (2012)
Deadlight (2012)
Hitman Absolution (2012)
Ninja Gaiden II (2008)
Psychonauts (2005)
Jazz Jackrabbit (1994)
Ico (2001)
Double Dragon Neon (2012)
The Darkness (2007)
Max Payne (2001)
God of War (2005)
Outlaws (1997)
Kane & Lynch: Dead Men (2007)
Prototype 2 (2012)
Inversion (2012)
Dishonored (2012)
Ghouls'n Ghosts (1988)
MediEvil 2 (2000)
The Darkness II (2012)
Shadows of the Damned (2011)
Dante's Inferno (2010)
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (2010)
Dead Space (2008)
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones (2005)
Infamous (2009)
Hotline Miami (2012)
The Godfather: The Game (2006)
Bionic Commando (2009)
Castlevania: Lament of Innocent (2003)
Breath of Fire IV (2000)
Gears of War 2 (2008)
Tenchu: Shadow Assassins (2009)
Grand Theft Auto III (2001)
Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles (2007)
Duke Nukem Forever (2011)
Borderlands 2 (2012)
Alone in the Dark (2008)
Pandora's Tower (2013)
Prey (2006)
God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
Resident Evil 5 (2009)
Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army (2006)
Ninja Gaiden 3 (2012)

so yes, @Aepas, there are examples of video games that use other motivators, but they are a bit more rare

Ellodin

i'm not sure if the above is an attempt to argue that that list constitutes anything close to a majority of the games made since 2001 or if you're trying to claim that the "damsel to be rescued" is close to a relevant plot point in a lot of those.

because lol that is barely a plot point when i play borderlands 2 (do they mean handsome jack's daughter?) or sonic the hedgehog?  the list includes max payne, and...despite having played through the game several times, i actually had to think about what was being talked about there.  i guess it's because your wife and child get murdered in the beginning of the game...and there's a strong female character otherwise, who re-appears in max payne 2.

idk at some point i think this argument gets pretty pedantic - the smell of moral superiority is very strong in this thread.  would you consider something like splinter cell: conviction an example because sam fisher finds out his daughter is alive and works to find out about that?

Nakari

Ellodin said:

i'm not sure if the above is an attempt to argue that that list constitutes anything close to a majority of the games made since 2001 or if you're trying to claim that the "damsel to be rescued" is close to a relevant plot point in a lot of those.

because lol that is barely a plot point when i play borderlands 2 (do they mean handsome jack's daughter?) or sonic the hedgehog?  the list includes max payne, and...despite having played through the game several times, i actually had to think about what was being talked about there.  i guess it's because your wife and child get murdered in the beginning of the game...and there's a strong female character otherwise, who re-appears in max payne 2.

idk at some point i think this argument gets pretty pedantic - the smell of moral superiority is very strong in this thread.  would you consider something like splinter cell: conviction an example because sam fisher finds out his daughter is alive and works to find out about that?

borderlands 2 was about some woman who asks you to kill her as part of stopping some villain plot, yeah, Max Paine is because the main characters motivation comes from a dead wife and daughter. I can't say I know anything about the splinter cell plot, so I can't really answer that.

As for 'the smell of moral superiority', you're going to have to provide some reasoning or some impacts for that to be anything more then an ad hominem.

I also find it concerning that you seem to view your own perception about the relevancy of capturing or killing female characters as some reason why doing so isn't problematic, and that having 'a strong female character' as part of the plot somehow fixes the use of problematic plot points in the first place. The point is that these are prevalent plot norms in games, and that the usage of female characters in this way far, far outnumbers the reverse

Ellodin

that...wasn't the main plot of borderlands 2.  and yes, in max payne, his motivation comes from a dead wife and daughter - but it's more about "family" or "loved ones" than "damsel in distress."  and when did i claim the strong female character "fixed" any "problematic plot points?"  i'm saying that the only female characters even close to being on max's side in the game were an immediately murdered wife/daughter and a strong character who doesn't come close to needing or receiving rescue.

the moral superiority comment is in response to the tone and arguments of quite a few people in this thread.  not sure what type of reasoning you're looking for in an observation.

yes, these are more common plot points, but i think it's more a function of male protagonists than anything else.  i actually do think it's more convincing to lose a spouse than a brother, so i guess by this logic, you can turn this into an argument of "why aren't there more homosexual characters in games."

i'm fairly sure there would be more uproar if a game had missions to save males from getting raped by females by killing the females.

Chryenth

I would play a game with missions to save males from getting raped by females by killing the females. Just putting that out there.

Losing someone you choose to love is considerably more dramatic than loosing someone you're born with, dramatically speaking. After all, you can abhor your siblings; hating your spouse is going to require a lot more explanation than 'He stole my sweets when I was four.'

Nakari

Ellodin said:

that...wasn't the main plot of borderlands 2.  and yes, in max payne, his motivation comes from a dead wife and daughter - but it's more about "family" or "loved ones" than "damsel in distress."  and when did i claim the strong female character "fixed" any "problematic plot points?"  i'm saying that the only female characters even close to being on max's side in the game were an immediately murdered wife/daughter and a strong character who doesn't come close to needing or receiving rescue.

the moral superiority comment is in response to the tone and arguments of quite a few people in this thread.  not sure what type of reasoning you're looking for in an observation.

yes, these are more common plot points, but i think it's more a function of male protagonists than anything else.  i actually do think it's more convincing to lose a spouse than a brother, so i guess by this logic, you can turn this into an argument of "why aren't there more homosexual characters in games."

i'm fairly sure there would be more uproar if a game had missions to save males from getting raped by females by killing the females.

it wasn't ever argued that it was the main plot, just that it was used as a point to drive story drama. None of this is necessarily about what the main points of plot are, just that problematic story aspects are prevalently used. It doesn't have to be the driving aspect of the story to be bad.

Not sure what you're point is at all in regards to Max Paine, then. The inclusion of a strong female character among problematic tropes is a bit irrelevant, especially if you're conceding it does not make up for the problematic tropes

The fact that it is common to male protagonists is not a good thing. There are other motivations that males can have then protecting/saving/defending female loved ones. And this still says something about the disproportionality of male leads to females in games.

also not sure why you're making an argument about what would be worse, that may well be true but you could say that about everything ever and it would never really have any bearing on what should be done.

Ellodin

i think in a good number of those cases, seeing those plot points as "problematic" is more a result of trying to hunt for reasons to be outraged and call feminism than anything else.  which is why my point with max payne is that it's a poor example of anything.

my whole point in terms of male protagonists was exactly that there are more male leads than female, thus unless they were homosexual, their partners would likely be female.  yes, there can be other motivations besides loss of a loved one, but they're not usually as convincing in reason to do something out of the ordinary.  this is pretty much what chryenth noted (which i thought was clear enough, that's why i used 'brother' as an example).

...the last also wasn't an argument about what's worse, that would be equality.  it's a two way street.