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Misogyny from IG to OOC

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  • AdalieAdalie Member Posts: 93 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Actually, funny enough, @Gishin was the one who shared the above link on Facebook and was the reason I saw it. Achaeans are having this discussion all over the place, it seems!

  • MathonwyMathonwy Member Posts: 886 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jhaeli said:

     - Part of the problem is that there are players making female characters and actively pursuing propositions, so to speak. (I couldn't tell you the latest names being banded around, but there were always people around the Archway perpetuating the stereotypes around new female characters.) This can influence other players, who then assume that all new females desire to be treated the same way, and so forth, leading to experiences like Adalie's above.
    The extent to which 18yo female Sirens are immediately identified sex alts, as opposed to any other alt (or the extent to which mudsex defines those alts if it's an alt that engages in that kind of behavior, compared to if a male alt does that kind of thing 'on the side') demonstrates the differences in power cemented into gender relations, which is plucked pretty much straight from the real world. Yeah sure, there are probably some people who make alts intentionally for e-banging, but I definitely think the burden of proof is on an 18yoFS to prove she isn't a sex alt, where that kind of standard doesn't really exist for male characters.

    Also, interestingly enough, most of the accounts that people seem to make, when they do make those kinds of accounts, ARE female, not male.
    Saeva said:
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    Xenomorph said:
    heh. Mathowned.
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  • AdalieAdalie Member Posts: 93 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not really sure what you're saying here, @Mathonwy.

    Or that most sex alts are female sirens, so the burden of proof is on them even though most female sirens aren't sex alts?

    That, to me, sounds very close to something like: since I'm (in this scenario pretending to be) a man, and most women want to sleep with me, the burden of proof is on them to convince me that they don't want me, even though most women don't actually want to sleep with me.

    Which of course is pretty silly.

    Also, are we saying that a new character should expect to have to prove they're not a sex alt rather than expect to be treated respectfully until they behave in a way that shows they may welcome that type of behavior? If so, I guess misogyny has a stronger hold on Achaea than I would have liked to believed.

    Maybe I'm way off in interpreting what you're saying, though. Set me straight.

    Also, in response to your last statement, I'm curious about the numbers. I wonder if more characters whose primary function is to seek out and engage in text-sex belong to women or men players. That's something we're likely to never know, of course, but just something to wonder, I guess.

    Boosteya
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2013
    When it comes to sexism it's a bit different for me. Now I don't mean to offend anyone here, but let's look back through the small bit of history that I've been alive.

    late 80's to now. I know, I'm young. Anyways, I've grown up always seeing the damsel in distress and the male hero come save the day. I love that shit. Now a lot of that might just be something that I've grown accustom to from the fiction I've read as well as all the Disney movies I've watched from a very young age. It's just kind of always been this way, so to me there is a sense of nostalgia every time I see the guy come and rescue the girl. I want to be that guy damnit! 

    So anyways, this is what sells. Males are still the current dominant marketing figure in video games, so they will target us. This stuff has been engrained in our brains from a young age, and I personally feel disney has plenty to do with it, because those are most of the shining examples I can think of. and hell, let's not forget those late 80/early 90 action flicks.

    Something the cracked article said that was correct is dominant female roles becoming submissive. Both Metroid and Tomb Raider... yeah, my thoughts exactly. Whoever the writers were for those games should likely give up the pen.

    Now lets talk about some good writing, using these very same issues, but let's apply it to males. Has anyone ever wondered why the Alien movies were so scary? I mean, ignoring the shitty AVP movies. If we go back and look through HR Giger's notebooks, we'll find out what is scary to men. Rape. Men are terrified of being raped, at least this is what the demented mind of HR Giger thought. And that man is a pro. So, Alien is super phallic, has a penetrating mouth. Facehuggers look like terrifying Vajays that do the penetrating to you! and to top it all off, since the fear factor is meant to be against the men, who better to take the lead role than a Woman, the bad ass xeno-kicking Ripley.
    So whether or not you actually believe in HR giger's beliefs about rape, there is a decent sense of understanding mentalities and abusing them to achieve a desired outcome in a movie. In Alien it was horror. This is the perfect example of what we -could- be doing with game writing, but alas everyone has a horrible misunderstood concept of what we actually want to see. The writers fail to understand what a strong female lead is, they fail to understand why a sexualized violence might be scary, they fail to understand where emotions might go into play, so they assume the female is always the more frail role, while the male is being strong and holding onto a dark past.

    Blah, so I went off on a rant there. But since we are here. Girls! Remember guys can be self conscious about our looks as well. So when I'm talking to you and you oogle another guy, keep this in mind.  I had this girl show me some pics of a party she went to on her phone. She was saying "Man, this guy here? yeah, he had such a great body."
    So I whipped out my phone and found a picture of a girl with gigantic boobs. "See this girl, damn she is hot. Look at those ****"


    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    PhraagBoosteya
  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The characters in Alien weren't written with genders in mind. Which is why casting a woman as a lead worked, because she was a person first and a woman second.
    AlynnaBoosteyaWysteria
  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 2013
    Last I checked, it's about 45% of gamers who are women.

    ETA: I'll try to find a source later, just on my cell phone.
  • TrillianaTrilliana Member Posts: 1,986 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Tania said:
    Last I checked, it's about 45% of gamers who are women. ETA: I'll try to find a source later, just on my cell phone.
    My problem is all the women that call facebook games as "games" and are categorized as gamers because of it-- but that's out of not knowing the requirements made for that sort of statistic.
    meh


  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I would put money on people who play Facebook games spend more time and more money on them than people who play something like Call of Duty, in general. I think someone dedicating that many hours to a game, regardless of what game it is, can be referred to as gamers.
    HyperlithKaitali
  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    And arbitrarily deciding what kind of game makes someone "count" as a gamer leads to the kind of snobbery and uninclusiveness that already affects many gamers.
    Kaitali
  • HyperlithHyperlith San Fierro area, San AndreasMember Posts: 357 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Trilliana said:

    Tania said:
    Last I checked, it's about 45% of gamers who are women. ETA: I'll try to find a source later, just on my cell phone.
    My problem is all the women that call facebook games as "games" and are categorized as gamers because of it-- but that's out of not knowing the requirements made for that sort of statistic.
    A corollary to this (and not necessarily on topic with the OP) is how, regardless of qualifiers to be called 'gamers', there are more games through more outlets or platforms that interest women. Not just those who "never pay to play" but women who like to throw down $0.99 a pop a dozen or more times a year. So, I don't know if there is a quickly identified percentage on genders but the raw number of increased video gaming out there must have increased by the droves.

    Trilliana
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthMember Posts: 956 @ - Epic Achaean
    About Tomb Raider, Iono. I remember my Lara spending most of her time mowing down enemies. She had some emotional moments but I remember more when the enemies were yelling for their lives.
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


    BoosteyaWysteria
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well it's way too late for me to read all these massive posts right now, including the original parts, but I want to sum up my general views on video game/media influence.

    First, I've never played any version of GTA. Don't know if I'm proud of that or not.

    Second, I've read an article about using scantily clad babes as decoration in video game levels and stuff that caters to the male ego and the whole "every guy is entitled to a beautiful princess" philosophy that is, in fact, fed to society from square one. Everything from disney movies to Mario rescuing Peach, guy gets the girl, no matter how well-qualified he is to have her. So much so that the girls who watch them are sometimes subdued into the dainty princess/housewife role without realizing it.

    It's weird to realize if it's never been pointed out to you before.

    Third, though, I'm not sure it's a big a problem as the problem underlying it, which is parental guidance.

    I believe expression of aggression or combative natures is healthy. (if you concede that people naturally have these, that is. some may not agree). Examples:
    - I play Mortal Kombat. This doesn't mean I believe it's acceptable to yank somebody's spine out or rip off their face and set them on fire.
    - I've played a shooter or two. I don't find it acceptable to shoot people because they're in my sights and move around like the people in the game do

    With increasingly realistic graphics, parenting might actually become more crucial, to help kids understand that it is very different from reality and your impulse to resolve a problem with violence does not apply in the real world. We are elevated beings and are quite above our primal emotions if we need to be.

    Fourth, I listen to metal and other hard music. I acknowledge my own darkness and channel it through the aggression in that form of media rather than letting it lash out at random on people in my life.
    Why that music?
    Well, hip-hop/rap and country music often revolve around glorifying misogyny and hatred and fear (and substance abuse),
    while rock/metal more often focuses on vilifying or satirizing those elements.
    The tricky part is that metal is aggressive or dark itself, while pop music is catchy, and addictive, and as with the recent "Blurred Lines" nonsense, helps contribute to the problem.

    Again, parental guidance. Not control, but guidance. 

    -- -- --
    tl;dr - misogyny is influenced by the media, but I don't think an excess of bouncy CGI boobies is negative unless the adults viewing them were not taught well as children, and that is their parents' job. It's as simple as telling little Billy "you should never treat a woman that way" when they witness a dark plot device in a PG-13 movie at home with their parents, or telling little Sally "a man should never treat you that way"

    Post ended up a lot more discombobulated that I intended. But I'm tired.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    SynbiosTrilliana
  • XenomorphXenomorph Member Posts: 389 @ - Epic Achaean
    I don't even know what that means but then again I never graduated ivy league. Despite what they say, Mavis Beacon is a cold hearted bitch, and failed me in chemistry. Carry on.
    I -am- the Cataclysm Switchblade.
    MathonwyHyperlith
  • AdalieAdalie Member Posts: 93 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jhaeli said:

    ETA: Aside from the Newbie Sirens Problem, Achaea is easily one of the most gender-friendly games I've ever come across. And it's been LGBT-friendly since I started playing, when LGBT-friendly was almost non-existent. (I've had a lot of fun roleplaying a lesbian with very few problems.) While I imagine there will always be troublesome players, Achaea has pretty much spoiled me for most MMORPGs, simply because the maturity and respectability level is - in general - a lot higher.

    I couldn't agree with this more. This actually made me forget (until someone reminded me) the annoying sexist BS I dealt with as a newbie, because once I got past that stage, I really felt almost nothing but inclusiveness. (On a  grand scale, I mean. Of course individual characters do or don't accept Adalie based on their RP.) In fact, I've experienced more acceptance having a bi character in Achaea than I have being a bi person IRL, even including when I participated in my college GSA. Achaea really has always been ahead of its time in certain ways.

  • AdalieAdalie Member Posts: 93 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2013
    I don't see how "females have some practical restrictions men don't" equates to sexed-up female "armour" being a staple of every game or strong female characters suddenly losing their courage because there's a penis in the vicinity. I don't have a problem with DID stories either; I have a problem with every* story being a DID story. I think that's the bigger issue.



    *Ok, like 95%

  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I am curious. Does anyone watch Alien and think "god Ripley, so unrealistic, just a guy with boobs"? Because they wrote her character as gender neutral. The actor being female took away nothing from the character. It could be the same way with any game out there.
    AdalieWysteria
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,838 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tania said:

    I am curious. Does anyone watch Alien and think "god Ripley, so unrealistic, just a guy with boobs"? Because they wrote her character as gender neutral. The actor being female took away nothing from the character. It could be the same way with any game out there.

    I think I was 8 years old when I saw Aliens on television. It started my love for horrors and thrillers. Instead of going through the cartoon section of the video store, I was reading B and C grade horror movies.

    To a degree, the first movie would have worked regardless of gender. You've got a mixed gender crew on a space voyage, Ripley happens to be a woman and the double crosser is actually an android instead of a human.

    The subsequent movies do take the gender into consideration in the second movie. The death of Ripley's daughter that she never got to see grow up and the maternal instincts displayed towards Newt are far more realistic for the nuturing qualities of women than perhaps for men. Not to say that men aren't loving parental units but I wouldn't say such a bond would easily be there with a male role.

    I found what @Aepes said about rape and violation to be quite fascinating especially regarding Aliens and the following movies. Is it any difference between getting impregnated by a facehugger and having your chest burst open, to perhaps the eventual storyline where due to facehugging and gene cloning, you have a human actually pregnant with an alien queen who ends up a womb and ends up giving birth by stomach burst?
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2013
    Sexed up armour is dumb. Definitely not defending that on any level. Even if you weren't concerned with the sexism, you'd still find it dumb because the armor is impractical. Having said that, I'm certainly not saying there can't be strong independent females, but I just find the knee-jerk reaction to compensate with a token female incredibly clumsy. They'll overcompensate by making her like super kickass sometimes even including some McGuffin that allows her to overshadow the rest of her team, but then dumb it back down by including gratuitous shots of her ass. Not that I don't appreciate a fine female specimen like Anne Hathaway or Scarlet Johansson and gorgeous booty, but thinking outside my panties, it's dumb and patronizing.

    On the subject of Alien and a female protagonist. I think that when talking about a movie or any visual medium that isn't a book, the actress herself lends a lot by body-language and appearance. I'm with @Kyrra on this that, Ripley just happened to be a woman and it would have worked regardless of gender, but the sequels often played a lot on theme of motherhood in a very uh... violent and messy way.


    TrillianaKyrraJhaeli
  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm not entirely sure what relevance you think the subsequent Alien movies have to the fact that the original was written without gender in mind.

    Obviously the next ones were written with Ripley as a woman. She's been cast at that point.
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,838 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tania said:

    I'm not entirely sure what relevance you think the subsequent Alien movies have to the fact that the original was written without gender in mind.

    Obviously the next ones were written with Ripley as a woman. She's been cast at that point.

    I saw the sequel long before the original. I think I had seen Alien 3 before I saw the original.

    So from that experience I've already seen Ripley defined as a woman. And it's quite relevant because my perspective of the character was changed on viewing the first Alien movie. While I do agree it makes no difference to a role cast without a gender in mind, I already had preconceived notions of what the character is like.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The only plus I see to "sexed-up" armour is the comment it makes about a warrior babe's martial prowess.

    Cause to go into combat without excessive armour is psychological warfare in itself. Not to mention distracting the shit out of your male opponents.

    But that applies to both sexes. If I walk in swinging a sword in nothing but a metallic bikini, ya'll know what's up.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    TrillianaSkyeWysteria
  • TaniaTania Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I keep coming back in my head to this line from Skye's post: "That's a utopia, it doesn't exist, and I think it'd be a very bland and boring world if it did"

    We're talking about video games here. You know, things which aren't reality already? Things that exist in video games which don't exist in reality: no consequences, the ability to heal someone by throwing magic sparkles at them, the ability to shoot fire from your hands, dragons, orcs, elves, Sirens, Atavians, leviathans, kraken, I could go on forever.

    Something existing in reality is not a requirement for video games, and it isn't a good argument against equality in video games. It doesn't have to be a utopia.

    And the issue, as mentioned, isn't the fact that women being murdered are a motivation for the hero's journey. It's that it's a motivation for so many video games that it's tired, and dated, and lazy. Incredibly lazy. It's like making the motivation for a female character rape or attempted rape. There are other things that can cause a person to become a murderous rage-machine shooting down everyone who comes into their path.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,320 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    nothing is stronger than love >(

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Wysteria
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    nothing is stronger than love >(
    Carbon nanotubes.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
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