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Skills you have that you'd love to see changed!

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  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Stonefist? Although it was already changed. Maybe I'm missing what it is useful for.
    Stonefist is the basic low-level magi/sylvan bashing skill, isn't it?
    Kyrra
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2013
    Stonefist is a pretty good newbie bashing attack. Far from the worst, at least. It also retains punch's scaling with denizen health.
    Naisar said:
    Skills should never be made obsolete.  They can be shoved into narrow niches, but when one completely encompasses the other bad design is happening.
    I don't understand the reason for this. An ability being completely replaced by a superior ability later seems almost identical to an ability being upgraded at a higher skill level. Are both of those situations bad design? If anything, I prefer the former, because sometimes people will actually want to use a weaker ability.
    KyrraAveri
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    I don't understand the reason for this. An ability being completely replaced by a superior ability later seems almost identical to an ability being upgraded at a higher skill level. Are both of those situations bad design? If anything, I prefer the former, because sometimes people will actually want to use a weaker ability.
    It serves the same purpose in terms of bashing becoming increasingly more powerful. High-rank Warp/Smite/Bop/Decay/etc being more powerful than low-rank Warp/Smite/Bop/Decay/etc works out the same as mages progressing from Stonefist to Firelash to Staffcast.

    It just feels wasteful when an ability becomes obsolete once you've gained another ability, higher up in the skill, that's the same but better. This isn't the case with Elementalism, as Stonefist is, if nothing else, fodder for def-stripping, and Firelash has its own uses. But looking at Metamorphosis, most morphs from the lower half of the skill become totally redundant once you gain higher morphs, as they have all the same powers and more. Very few skills actually suffer from this though.
    image
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    My sylvan used stonefist for hunting for a long time because firelash was so much weaker. It's also another useless def that can be stripped in favour of other things.
    If I tell someone stonefist can be used as an attack, I usually get laughed at.
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,827 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    For a sylvan at least, stonefist is still largely better than firelash up until you can thornrend. I think magi can make use of firelash until they can staffcast or whatever.

    You're still just punching things to death but there's a huge difference in how fast things die. I really wouldn't want to see stonefist removed. Plus it's useful on guys that don't take a hint :)
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    AradorAchimrstHasarCathy
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Naisar said:
    Skills should never be made obsolete.  They can be shoved into narrow niches, but when one completely encompasses the other bad design is happening.
    I thought what he was saying was that skills shouldn't find themselves in a state where they have no real usable place in things. Like Justice tarot. Cool idea, never used though because you're never in a situation where you actually stack it with affs and they still attack.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    Stonefist is a pretty good newbie bashing attack. Far from the worst, at least. It also retains punch's scaling with denizen health.
    Naisar said:
    Skills should never be made obsolete.  They can be shoved into narrow niches, but when one completely encompasses the other bad design is happening.
    I don't understand the reason for this. An ability being completely replaced by a superior ability later seems almost identical to an ability being upgraded at a higher skill level. Are both of those situations bad design? If anything, I prefer the former, because sometimes people will actually want to use a weaker ability.
    I can see occasionally wanting to use the weaker ability for something, but in general, I prefer the gradual improvement of a single skill over the step-function model of waiting for the next, stronger one. For those classes with the latter model, I think you generally get your final hunting skill (thornrend, staffcast, jaguar maul, whatever) around Fabled in your first class skill, which I think you'll usually be looking at getting around level 70 based on leveling lessons and bound credits, and bashing through the 60s with firelash or hyena claw (?) is pretty damn tedious.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I do agree that more gradual improvement is better than those huge steps. And because you mentioned it with a (?), metamorphosis also has reflexed claw in wolverine as a sort of intermediate step between hyena and jaguar.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    I do agree that more gradual improvement is better than those huge steps. And because you mentioned it with a (?), metamorphosis also has reflexed claw in wolverine as a sort of intermediate step between hyena and jaguar.
    The ? was more because I wasn't sure I was remembering the name of the hyena power correctly and didn't want to go back to the previous page and look it up. Hadn't realized that about wolverine though. 
  • YaeYae Member Posts: 307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2013
    It would be a nice 'halfway' if it were an actual halfway point, but.. as it is.
    Wildcat (7) ----> Hyena (134) --------------------------> Wolverine (574) -> Jaguar (841).

    Hunting with reflexes is particularly draining though! We have Groves to counteract that, pushing on the Metamorphosis side means that the Groves learning is lowered.
    Post edited by Yae on
    Art commissions are closed! I am (practically) dormant.   :s
    Sena
  • HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean
    Agree with @Mizik, let's buff tremolo to break two legs now.

    YaeSynbiosSylvance
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 2013
    I'll explain a bit since some discussion has sprung up around my earlier statement.  
    Sena said:
    I don't understand the reason for this. An ability being completely replaced by a superior ability later seems almost identical to an ability being upgraded at a higher skill level. Are both of those situations bad design? If anything, I prefer the former, because sometimes people will actually want to use a weaker ability.
    In pure function, yes, these are identical.  In fact if you're making this decision in a vacuum, you may as well go with two separate abilities.  But in application there are other factors to consider.  First off, you're using up design space on an ability that will cease to be useful once players attain the more powerful one.  By switching to a scaling ability you've now got some free space you can use for anything you want.  Want more flavor?  Fill your newly-freed design space with habaneros.  Even if you really want to have an early skill be superceded by a late one you should provide narrow use-cases for the weak one to keep it from being obsolete.  Firelash is a decent example of an ability that retains a small amount of utility even after being replaced as a bashing ability.  Furthermore, it's disappointing for players to look at their ab files and discover that some of the stuff there is pointless.  

    My argument is not that one scaling ability beats a strong-obsolete pairing (although in many cases this is true), but that one scaling ability and one of whatever the hell you want is better.  And personally, though I do not know how much this opinion is shared by others, I prefer medium-sized skills where every ability sizzles to large ones with a bunch of duds.

    Edit: Grammar
    SenaShirszaeSylvance
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just make it like Teradrim in Aetolia where their entire skillset can be used on mobs, and each actually have advantages and disadvantages, lets the person choose what they wanna use.

    Jonners
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Can see a lot of holo bomb farming if that happend. Or dragon rain.
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Single target abilities only.

  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,827 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There goes Stormstrike for ratting.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • ChryenthChryenth Member Posts: 1,323 @ - Epic Achaean
    *Stormhammer

    Let me use Erode on denizens, please.
    AislingZeonKyrraWysteria
  • XliXli Member Posts: 354 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    AB DRAGONCRAFT DEVOUR to be able to consume denizen corpses
    Hiroma tells you, "I just got to listen to someone complain about your deadly axekick being the bane of their existence."
    Archdragon Mizik Corten, Herald of Ruin says, "Man, that was a big axk."
    Hellrazor Cain de Soulis, Sartan's Hammer says, "Your [sic] a beast."
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,820 Achaean staff
    This exists, its the consume ability in dragoncraft.
    Blujixapug
  • PhraagPhraag Member Posts: 64 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Can I get AB TWOARTS Multislash to also work on denizens? I just run around spamming drawslash all day and it's sorta boring, but I see a monk do like 10 uppercuts a kick and an elbow.
    Just a Grook, member of House Mojushai and proud citizen of Cyrene.

    - 2013/09/14 10:48:03 - Yxty says, "I will think about that while i punch this sheep."
    SynbiosKaieAedin
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Phraag said:
    Can I get AB TWOARTS Multislash to also work on denizens? I just run around spamming drawslash all day and it's sorta boring, but I see a monk do like 10 uppercuts a kick and an elbow.

    Only if they have separate crit chance and does bleeding damage.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    BlujixapugSynbiosKaie
  • SimolnSimoln Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Hi Sumac/Camus, hi Longbow/Darkbow.
    Sylvance
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,895 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can't do a proper F chord on the guitar and I would like this changed ASAP. Piano seems a bit overpowered atm.
    PM me if you want to playtest a MUD.
    SimolnPhraagEllodinKaieUtianima
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tvistor said:
    I can't do a proper F chord on the guitar and I would like this changed ASAP. Piano seems a bit overpowered atm.
    Weak.
    TvistorUtianima
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,807 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd like to do something with Truth in Devotion, since it just seems to be a copy of Search in Vision. I have absolutely no idea what I'd do with it though, but stylistically it's pretty cool and it would be nice to actually give it more usage.
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    I'd like to do something with Truth in Devotion, since it just seems to be a copy of Search in Vision. I have absolutely no idea what I'd do with it though, but stylistically it's pretty cool and it would be nice to actually give it more usage.
    We need a whole influence/persuasion system for non-violent PVE.
    image
    SylvanceVarrorr
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Remove the balance/action restrictions on aiming.  Its not being used because it prevents spamability.  Would be a boon for Serpents/Knights and gives them a edge back from people buy artie bows.

    For warhawk the game doesn't send a message to the falcon owner when their steel talons decay, add that.

    Startle has little use in its present form (just not worth using), could make act like a tentacle tattoo/dervish and knock a flying enemy out of the air.



    image
    SimolnAedinSylvanceAisling
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