Combat Logs

Atalkez

Frederich said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4OEHwQ7e

So.  Can someone please explain what the fuck happened.

I was at full 7015 health.  And then I was instantly dead (and I had to make sure that I didn't fucking get cleaved or some stupid shit).

16:23:35.861 Sudden pain radiates throughout your body

You got choleric bombed.

Keorin

Kinda hard to tell what happened without your prompt, but at the very least, that was a 7 temper choleric inundate with sensitivity the hit before you die, which'll deal nearly all your health as percentage damage.

If you were actually at full health and then dead (as opposed to full health, then almost dead from Rom's inundate and dead .3 seconds later), then you were probable reckless, which can happen from alchemist.

Frederich

Wasn't reckless unless someone hid it in blackout I didn't have.

My mana wasn't at full, however, so... I know I didn't go from full to 0, but was at full, then REALLY low (like in the 100-500 range) and then Proficy smacked my ass and got the kill.  But y i k e s.

Rom

4818h, 4320m, 21094e, 20889w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:32.736

You pick up a throwing axe.

You begin to wield a throwing axe in your left hand.

You and your homunuculus must be in the same room, on the same elevation, for that command to be 

carried out.

Looking over Frederich, you see that:

His choleric humour has been tempered a total of 5 times.

Frederich is at 7015/7015.          |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 100% hp

You glower at Frederich, preparing to assault his humours. You make a gesture toward him, grabbing 

at the ether strand binding you.

You redirect Frederich's internal fluids, tempering his choleric humour.

Frederich suddenly appears nauseous.

You rub some prefarar on a throwing axe.

You cock back your arm and throw a throwing axe at Frederich.

4818h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:32.848(-132m, 2.5%) 

Antidas stumbles and pokes himself in the eye.

4818h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:32.916

Antidas ATE GINSENG

4818h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:32.920

Antidas twitches spasmodically.

4818h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:32.924

The othala rune on the ground suddenly erupts in a great gout of boiling magma, the concussive blast 

smashing into the prismatic barrier surrounding Cooper and rendering it asunder.

The othala rune on the ground suddenly erupts in a great gout of boiling magma, smashing into your 

body with flesh-searing fury.

The protective barrier about you fluctuates, but holds.

The othala rune on the ground suddenly erupts in a great gout of searing magma, smashing into the 

hapless body of Proficy with terrible force.

Farrah glowers at Cooper with a look of repressed disgust before making a slight gesture toward him.

Farrah glowers at Cooper with a look of repressed disgust before making a slight gesture toward him.

The protective coating covering the skin of Cooper sloughs off.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:33.126(-172h, 3.6%) 

Frederich ATE BLOODROOT

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:33.209

A look of extreme focus crosses the face of Antidas.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:33.213

Lorann swings a razor-sharp, Targossian scimitar at Cooper with all her might.

Lightning-quick, Lorann jabs Cooper with a razor-sharp, Targossian scimitar.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20859w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:33.302

Antidas attempts to do a standing backflip, but merely stumbles over his own feet.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cekdb[ast]-  16:23:33.393

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (0.637s)

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:33.486rom

Cooper strums a few notes on a Lasallian lyre, and a prismatic barrier forms around him.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.284

You may eat another plant or mineral. (2.041s)

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.289(eat aurum|outr aurum)

You may manipulate another's humours once more.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.293

Zalford slips and falls on the ice.

4646h, 4188m, 21063e, 20871w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.433

You glower at Frederich, preparing to assault his humours. You make a gesture toward him, grabbing 

at the ether strand binding you.

You inundate Frederich's choleric humour, and a look of pain crosses his face.

You must be mounted to trample.

4646h, 4122m, 21063e, 20841w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.443(-66m, 1.2%) 

Proficy swings Lahash, a smouldering scimitar of gold at Frederich with all his might.

The final blow proves too much for Frederich, who falls to the floor a broken, bloody mess.

Frederich has been slain by Proficy.

4646h, 4122m, 21063e, 20841w cexkdb[ast]-  16:23:34.450

It was just sensi choleric inundate, I messed up my damage followup so Proficy got it.

Rangor

Lol. Handaxe mode on alchemist!

Rom

Rangor said:

Lol. Handaxe mode on alchemist!

Faster than my old reflexes 256 speed one! I will never let my babies down.

Keorin

Flails remain dumb

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jpKcY6Qa

This kind of shit should, at the very least, take more then -three doublewhirls- of prep to pull off.  Heck, I have as much health as some dragon level people, it should at least take some damned artifact flails.

Taryius

I mean, part of the issue is monks crap resistances especially against blunt
</3 Leather Armour

Keorin

I'm not sure if that really makes a difference here, since other classes wouldn't have kai heal. The problem is that at my health level (4788), it takes three flail hits to prep, and that a single doublewhirl after the break can jump to mangle. So it takes four doublewhirls to get past parry and prep both legs, and then it's break leg 1->mangle leg 1->break leg 2->mangle leg 2->assault torso->assault torso.

That's four doublewhirls, all of which get some degree of bonus damage, followed by two torso assaults, which would be doable against anyone with that amount of health. I'm not sure that somewhat better blunt resist is enough to really deal with that.

Armali

I think @Mindshell worked out that with level 3 flails you can do that to anybody with less than 7k health.

Jovolo

This is really still a thing 2 years later? 

http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/15/combat-logs/p471

Armali

Technically speaking, you can use a morningstar + flail combo to break with the star and then follow up with a flail hit, since you only need three flail hits and there's no carry-through damage on the break hit. That buys you a bit of time.

Dochitha

Keorin said:

Flails remain dumb

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jpKcY6Qa

This kind of shit should, at the very least, take more then -three doublewhirls- of prep to pull off.  Heck, I have as much health as some dragon level people, it should at least take some damned artifact flails.

We are just following through to build an army wielding the blunts.

Dochitha

Keorin said:

I'm not sure if that really makes a difference here, since other classes wouldn't have kai heal. The problem is that at my health level (4788), it takes three flail hits to prep, and that a single doublewhirl after the break can jump to mangle. So it takes four doublewhirls to get past parry and prep both legs, and then it's break leg 1->mangle leg 1->break leg 2->mangle leg 2->assault torso->assault torso.

That's four doublewhirls, all of which get some degree of bonus damage, followed by two torso assaults, which would be doable against anyone with that amount of health. I'm not sure that somewhat better blunt resist is enough to really deal with that.

Yeap, that's the plan, and he executed it flawlessly... DWL LL break LL 1st hit, DWL LL LL mangles. DWL RL break RL 1st hit, DWL RL RL mangle. Assault torso x2.

Some defenses: Smoke rebounding when you are prone, tumble through wall, that effectively eats away ~2s of balance, which may screw up his attempt.

Tested with Mindshell, using L3s, the mangle range threshold is about >8200 health. But not everyone uses L3s. With forged, as I tested with Kuroji, seems to be around ~6500 health, havn't really tested indepth, if you have more than 6500 health you will be out of mangle range. 6500 health is high requirement I know. When I say mangle range, I am referring to 3 hits with flails to mangle an already damaged limb.

DWB now is so health-sensitive:
- If you are above 8500 health, the only way remaining is pulp. Out of mangle range and damage won't work.
- Some classes with prone healing abilities can be immune to damage path forever, tested this in many fights. 
- If the remaining way is pulp, pulp is not a guaranteed kill like all other prep-based kill paths, attempts to defend can screw it up.
- If you are running lower health, DWB becomes overwhelming.

I hope more attention is given to DWB, not just bloody nerf it, but to actually give it more thoughts and design, more options. Just don't make it shikudo with affs, don't want to end up with everything hybrid.

@keorin Don't nerf your own housemates!! lol

Dochitha

Copying Aerek, and adding my thoughts:

1) Quick prep and mangle is needed as DWB has zero hindrance. Quick prep a required defence against momentum classes, to prone and break to buy time to cure down, DWB still has to manage this skillfully in the face of quick affs like DW, Apostates, Serp's burst etc.

2) Quick mangle, ie 3-flail mangle, is required to buy DWB time to gather momentum against hindrance heavy classes, allowing DWB to start pulp sequence with 3 mo rather than full 8 mo (mo decay is a glaring issue against hindrance heavy class). Also as serve as variety to work around pulp's suboptimal curing and defense.

3) So limb damage bonus is needed. Health bonus damage DWL on already broken limbs, on the other hand, as expressed by @Aerek, can be scaled down. At least forces DWB to complete their sequence, rather than accidentally outdamaging while executing. DWB also doesn't need the health pressure from prep. I think a good way is to shift health bonus hitting on broken limb towards assault damage, as assault is at the end game anyway.

Tahquil

(Pssst... you need to say his name 3 times for him to appear.)

Austere

6500 to avoid quick mangle vs 0 offensive arties? This is why I don't fight dwb

Dochitha

Fight DWB like an Iakimen:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/FwNQ_i7B

Is the result if I tried going damage path against him decently defending.

Achilles

Dochitha said:

Fight DWB like an Iakimen:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/FwNQ_i7B

Is the result if I tried going damage path against him decently defending.

Nevermind, works now, probably a browser issue


You must have light stepper, or some artie masking your 15 dex and are mounted

Iakimen finishes sketching a thurisaz rune with a flourish.
Iakimen ceases to wield a Shield of Absorption in his left hand.
Iakimen begins to wield a Scimitar of Hawks in his left hand.
Iakimen slashes into your right leg with a Scimitar of Hawks.
Your right leg is greatly damaged from the beating.
Your insomnia has cleared up.
Iakimen swings a Scimitar of Hawks at your right leg with all his might.
You dodge nimbly out of the way.
Iakimen moves in to engage you. (1.648s)


I forgot how bad dwc could be, his prone leg break missed.  But you pretty much ignored the leg break and kept prepping

Both of your legs must be free and unhindered to do that.
Iakimen is at 6207/6859.            |||||||||||||||||||||||||||--- 90% hp
right arm | You whip Southern Frost, a Vashnarian morningstar toward the right arm of Iakimen.
A jolt runs up your arm as the runes upon your weapon discharge energy into Iakimen.
right arm | You whip Southern Glacier, a Vashnarian morningstar toward the right arm of Iakimen.
You are little more than a blur.

Dochitha

Austere said:

6500 to avoid quick mangle vs 0 offensive arties? This is why I don't fight dwb

You sure... you locked me 3 times straight before I can even break you...

Ryzeth

You should really fix your limb-checking triggers to account for parry/rebounding/etc when adding hits.

Dochitha

Ryzeth said:

You should really fix your limb-checking triggers to account for parry/rebounding/etc when adding hits.

Shit did I miss out something.. will look back thanks. Also my count wasn't perfect, and cos I switch in between star and flails, some times I mess up.

That said, is to demonstrate defensive play can mitigate dwb damage assault path, guess I assaulted him x2, twice, he survived and stood. Finally I went with pulp, had him all prepped, got into nairat, lost the mo, and then came his turn to execute perfectly.

Ryzeth

Dochitha said:

I meant when YOU'RE hit, not when your weapons are hitting them. When he's hitting your torso, it's adding hits even though they're missing/rebounding/getting parried.

Keorin

Dochitha said:

Copying Aerek, and adding my thoughts:

1) Quick prep and mangle is needed as DWB has zero hindrance. Quick prep a required defence against momentum classes, to prone and break to buy time to cure down, DWB still has to manage this skillfully in the face of quick affs like DW, Apostates, Serp's burst etc.

2) Quick mangle, ie 3-flail mangle, is required to buy DWB time to gather momentum against hindrance heavy classes, allowing DWB to start pulp sequence with 3 mo rather than full 8 mo (mo decay is a glaring issue against hindrance heavy class). Also as serve as variety to work around pulp's suboptimal curing and defense.

3) So limb damage bonus is needed. Health bonus damage DWL on already broken limbs, on the other hand, as expressed by @Aerek, can be scaled down. At least forces DWB to complete their sequence, rather than accidentally outdamaging while executing. DWB also doesn't need the health pressure from prep. I think a good way is to shift health bonus hitting on broken limb towards assault damage, as assault is at the end game anyway.

I think a lot of this is true, but there's a few other considerations that need to be made.

1. Pulp is in an incredibly strong place right now. It's an almost impossible to avoid instant kill that can be done with three limbs of prep. The momentum requirement is a limitation, sure, but pulp doesn't exactly need more measures to get around curing and defense, or the ability to be started off of next to no momentum buildup.

2. We're talking primarily about people with high health levels, but the extra limb damage makes it completely impossible to fight dual blunt at levels that used to be considered a decent point to start combat. Anything below 4k health or so, for instance, can be permanently manglelocked off a single beak by forged flails, which is essentially impossible to fight against.

3. Shifting damage from doublewhirl to assault isn't really a great solution either, because of how easily flail breaks lead into assault. The double mangle into double torso assault path we've been talking about is silly because it only requires two prepped legs and three momentum and has essentially no counterplay available, other then pulling out your credit card, and boosting assault's burst damage at the end would keep that just as lethal. Dual blunt may need fast breaks for hinder, but that doesn't mean it needs to be able to prep a reliable kill in only 4 doublewhirls.

In my mind, the operative question is how many prepped limbs should dual blunt require to be lethal. Right now, pulp keeps them incredibly lethal against most anyone at three limbs of prep, and then flails give them an alternative that works against huge health ranges off of only two limbs. I think the solution isn't just moving damage numbers, but separating the quick breaks needed for hinder from the quick breaks that lead into quick kills.

Antonius

Assault's balance time shouldn't be affected by weapon stats (confirmed by whoever replied to my bug report), but the damage is, so you're just wasting potential damage for no gain by switching to morningstars (unless they've changed how assault and weapon stats interact again).

Farrah

Dochitha said:

Fight DWB like an Iakimen:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/FwNQ_i7B

Is the result if I tried going damage path against him decently defending.

In my experience with DWB, there's a massive difference between fighting it as a Knight and fighting it as a lower resistance class. A Knight who has nairat plus full plate/algiz and 6800 health isn't something everyone can imitate.

I remember fighting DWB as serpent, and the sheer damage from engage made the tumble probably hurt me more than it helped.

Mindshell

Quick mangle with 3's tapers off somewhere in the 8100-8400 range, didn't have the stats to get more precise than that. I'm only really concerned for the bottom end where before the mid 4000s health range you can mangle in a single doublewhirl, which is quick enough that fractures + doublewhirls will outpace salve balance.

I don't know that mechanically the middle range is a problem other than having to restart your offence. Tanking the entire execution up until the very final assault in a path that is intended to be the flail alternative to pulp should be indicative of the tight balancing. For those of us with some arties on us, that path isn't even an option for the class since we can tank that outright mitigating it entirely to a defensive breather.

Farrah

I don't think arties are the crucial thing in tanking DWB as much as class is. I can tank it eternally as artied paladin. I can't even live to the torso assaults as artied serpent.

Dochitha

My thought is:
1) Don't let DWB kill people standing.
2) Don't let DWB kill people with just mangles.
3) If damage is a path, at least, bring it further to assault, that is a VERY long sequence exceeding more than 12s, giving room for defensive play, all sorts of variables and chances for DWB to screw up.
4) Do not adjust quick break / 3 flail mangles, cos that's "Essentially DWB".

Dunn

I got shanked by this last night in serpent.  I maybe stuck a few kelps first then @Dochitha's falcon stripped scales, he broke my leg with a hugalaz proc, he mangled my leg and I died. 


I generally like to get to know someone before I get fucked that hard, but  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯