Combat Logs

Aesi

Ainly said:

Aerek said:

It is a precarious balance, though. DWB can feel woefully overpowered in some instances, and woefully underpowered in others. Like Kiet said, it has to be a little ridiculous because it's not very flexible. 

Yes.  DWB doesn't leave any room for creativity.  It does what it does well, but if someone can tank it and knows hows to deal with it, it becomes very ineffective.  

That what you kicked my ass with in the twins? That shit hurt. Well done

Antonius

@Ainly Do you have gauntlets?

I think the best place to start is getting rid of the limb damage bonuses, they really don't need to be able to just mangle as soon as they get you prone.

Jovolo

Aerek said:

 It would probably benefit from a lower flat component to its damage, and a higher scaling component, so that it can still deal real damage to artie dragons, without instantly wtfpwn'ing <5000 health. (I have 4900 with Algiz and fullplate and still get owned pretty easily)

I endorse this message. 

Amranu

I agree that they really don't need improved limb damage when prone considering that they can already double break.

I really kinda like the class flavour though, whereas everyone else is doing a bunch of relatively complex things, DWB seems like it's very "HULK SMASH" to me, which is cool.

Ainly

Antonius said:

@Ainly Do you have gauntlets?

I think the best place to start is getting rid of the limb damage bonuses, they really don't need to be able to just mangle as soon as they get you prone.

I was at 20 strength in both logs, and had level 2 flails in the one vs Atalkez.

 

DWB can't just mangle as soon as it gets you prone. You have to break two legs to have enough time to mangle one in most cases. Also, you're not accounting for momentum.  You need momentum in the first place to prone someone.  Low health people will mangle in one doublewhirl after they are prone and their leg is broken, but most people fall into the 1.5-2 doublewhirl mangle range, some above 2.5.  So that if I double break legs and prone, I'd have to attack twice to one leg to mangle it for most people.  I think one thing we're all not considering is that one doublewhirl takes 3+ seconds.  That's a really slow attack. Also, doublewhirl does not have a razeslash equivalent.  When rebounding or shield is up, we just raze. Atalkez dies quickly once prone for the same reason a serpent would die quickly to a monk who double breaks their legs, because they aren't meant to tank damage.  DWB can give clumsines, paralysis, lethargy, and confusion, but these are only effective if you're using morningstars, whose damage is not even close to the threat that flail damage is.

 

Bottom line, DWB hurts, it's supposed to hurt.  But it's like a momentum class in that it needs a certain amount of consecutive attacks to be effective. It's a momentum class when it tries to win with damage, and a prep class when it tries to win with pulp. 

Jovolo

Look at the log, you mangled in the attack after you broke the leg. 

Aerek

I'd actually argue that it's just the raw health damage that's the problem, not limb damage. The limb bonuses need to stay because the ability to pull off a quick mangle is almost necessary against opponents that can hinder DWB well. Thoth's Fang Serpents, Alchemists, and the like make it extremely difficult to build up the 7-8 Momentum DWB needs to use its end-game stuff. The ability to pull off a quick mangle gives them 8-12 seconds to build that momentum, which opens up the kill strats they can't use when they're getting paralyzed on loop or having to take defensive action every 6 seconds.

The limb damage bonuses are only a problem when you have ~4200 health or less, because that's when DWB can break/prone and mangle you with each subsequent flail DWL. Once you have 4500+ health, your breakpoint is high enough that DWB can no longer permanently mangle you, but the health damage you take is ridiculous enough that your odds of surviving even the single mangle is slim. If we can tone down the raw health damage so that 4k-5k targets have a reasonable chance of surviving this easy mangle, WITHOUT nerfing DWB's damage against 6k+ targets, then its mangle capabilities won't be such a huge problem. They won't even lose the ability to damage spike, they still have torso Assault intended for that, you just don't see it used because current DWL damage is so high that torso Assault is almost redundant.

Jovolo said:

Look at the log, you mangled in the attack after you broke the leg. 

It actually takes him 2 hits after the breaks. He double-breaks, hits right leg, then hits right leg again for the mangle at the end. It is possible to single-break/prone and mangle on the next hit, but you have to do your prep work right, and you can't sustain that mangle like Monks used to. This isn't impossible to overcome, inherently, it's just the sheer damage and threat of Engage that don't give the target many options.

Ainly

Jovolo said:

Look at the log, you mangled in the attack after you broke the leg. 

That's strange to me.  If you look at the Atalkez log, I -didn't- mangle right after I broke his leg, and he has less health than Lavakhi.

Ainly

Aerek said:

 It is possible to single-break/prone and mangle on the next hit, but you have to do your prep work right, and you can't sustain that mangle like Monks used to. This isn't impossible to overcome, inherently, it's just the sheer damage and threat of Engage that don't give the target many options.

Actually, monks can still do that against less than 4500 health targets and level 3 knuckles.

Jovolo

Well, the break combos were different for a start

Jovolo

If you broke right leg/right leg, then did a right leg/right leg combo after it would've mangled on the second hit of the second attack so yeah

Dunn

Almost crapped my pants when I saw the 2k doublewhirl on a not broken limb. Hugalaz proc, but still. Damn.

Jovolo

I can't edit my original post so. 

Against atalkez you did this: 
Hit right leg/left leg (both legs break, right leg=1)
RIght leg(right leg=2)/right leg (right leg=3)
Right leg(right leg=4=mangled)/right leg(right leg=5)

Against lavakhi you did this: 
Hit left leg(left leg breaks, left leg=1)/left leg(left leg=2)
left leg(left leg=3)/left leg(left leg=4=mangled)

With the knowledge of how salves prioritise curing (right leg mangle>left leg mangle>right leg break>left leg break>left leg cripple>right leg cripple), you can really abuse this for perma prone with 2k+ damage every 3 seconds. 

Ainly

Jovolo said:

I can't edit my original post so. 

Against atalkez you did this: 
Hit right leg/left leg (both legs break, right leg=1)
RIght leg(right leg=2)/right leg (right leg=3)
Right leg(right leg=4=mangled)/right leg(right leg=5)

Against lavakhi you did this: 
Hit left leg(left leg breaks, left leg=1)/left leg(left leg=2)
left leg(left leg=3)/left leg(left leg=4=mangled)

With the knowledge of how salves prioritise curing (right leg mangle>left leg mangle>right leg break>left leg break>left leg cripple>right leg cripple), you can really abuse this for perma prone with 2k+ damage every 3 seconds. 

Theory is great, but in practice it's a little different. I don't do 2k damage every 3 seconds.  You're taking that damage based on a doublewhirl with a hugalaz proc.  Hugalaz does not proc every 3 seconds.  You're also not accounting for armour and resistances.  Also, not accounting for rebounding.

Amranu

From what I've seen of DWB, timing in regards to rebounding seems to make or break kills.

Jovolo

You did 2k damage to Atalkez with no hugalaz dbw and he has 10% phys resist with Scales on top of armour

Ainly

Ok.  You win.  Serpents are countered by DWB.

Jovolo

This would probably be easier to talk about on a live chat but I'm not saying serpents are countered by dwb, I'm just using his class resistances and the damage you did to him to make a point. DWB does unreasonable damage on prone opponents considering the ability to mangle lock and that might be because the formula has too much of a flat component to it and not enough scaling %... who knows. There's no point in trying to be hush hush about it or take it personally because the class wouldn't be looked at with as informed a perspective as possible.

Atalkez

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/caea69ef

That 40% in Mir!

Amranu

5771h 5203m 84%e 99%w 77 Thyr 42.4   17:19:09.015   
Ainly skilfully whirls a Skullsplitter flail toward your right leg.
With a swift turn, you draw your blade from its scabbard and unleash a retaliatory strike against 
Ainly.
A bolt of lightning explodes from the weapon as it makes contact, accompanied by a clap of thunder.
With a series of hisses, small acidic hailstones pour down from above, battering your body.
Ainly skilfully whirls a Skullsplitter flail toward your right leg.
With a swift turn, you draw your blade from its scabbard and unleash a retaliatory strike against 
Ainly.
2791h 5189m 84%e 99%w 62 Thyr 42.4  (-3107h, 48.7%)  17:19:11.033   

Dats funny.

Ainly

That ringmail vs 20 strength/level 2 flails. Probably a little over the top. But have we seen the 5k bursts that Sylvans do? I think the damage needs to be reworked, but something else needs to be changed too so it's not so linear.  Right now, expending on a limb provides an affliction and another effect.  Maybe expand upon that idea so that if you expend on a limb twice in one doublewhirl an additional effect occurs.

Jarrod

Should be remembered that DWB should do a ton of damage to prone target. Otherwise the person just avoids pulp and never dies.

Amranu

Yes, that damage would be fine if he was prone. He wasn't

Atalkez

Ainly said:

That ringmail vs 20 strength/level 2 flails. Probably a little over the top. But have we seen the 5k bursts that Sylvans do? I think the damage needs to be reworked, but something else needs to be changed too so it's not so linear.  Right now, expending on a limb provides an affliction and another effect.  Maybe expand upon that idea so that if you expend on a limb twice in one doublewhirl an additional effect occurs.

Stopping shielding with expend is pretty huge, can't leave that out. Difference with the 5k burst from Sylvan and DwB, you can reset the Sylvan by leaving the room. With DwB you can't do that, plus when you do leave you'll (presumably) be taking engage damage too.

Ainly

Atalkez said:

Ainly said:

That ringmail vs 20 strength/level 2 flails. Probably a little over the top. But have we seen the 5k bursts that Sylvans do? I think the damage needs to be reworked, but something else needs to be changed too so it's not so linear.  Right now, expending on a limb provides an affliction and another effect.  Maybe expand upon that idea so that if you expend on a limb twice in one doublewhirl an additional effect occurs.

Stopping shielding with expend is pretty huge, can't leave that out. Difference with the 5k burst from Sylvan and DwB, you can reset the Sylvan by leaving the room. With DwB you can't do that, plus when you do leave you'll (presumably) be taking engage damage too.

If you leave the room I lose my momentum and can't prone you immediately when you come back, to be fair. I have to rebuild the momentum. And what I meant was, add more effects beyond stopping parry, stunning, stopping shield, and proning.  What those effects might be, I don't know right now.

Szanthax

Ainly said:

Atalkez said:

Ainly said:

That ringmail vs 20 strength/level 2 flails. Probably a little over the top. But have we seen the 5k bursts that Sylvans do? I think the damage needs to be reworked, but something else needs to be changed too so it's not so linear.  Right now, expending on a limb provides an affliction and another effect.  Maybe expand upon that idea so that if you expend on a limb twice in one doublewhirl an additional effect occurs.

Stopping shielding with expend is pretty huge, can't leave that out. Difference with the 5k burst from Sylvan and DwB, you can reset the Sylvan by leaving the room. With DwB you can't do that, plus when you do leave you'll (presumably) be taking engage damage too.

If you leave the room I lose my momentum and can't prone you immediately when you come back, to be fair. I have to rebuild the momentum. And what I meant was, add more effects beyond stopping parry, stunning, stopping shield, and proning.  What those effects might be, I don't know right now.

Don't give up all the secrets.... You keep momentum forever... 

I imagine a lot of paralysis earlier in would have slowed you down... Maybe evade after the hypno?

Kiet

Aerek said:

I'd actually argue that it's just the raw health damage that's the problem, not limb damage. The limb bonuses need to stay because the ability to pull off a quick mangle is almost necessary against opponents that can hinder DWB well. Thoth's Fang Serpents, Alchemists, and the like make it extremely difficult to build up the 7-8 Momentum DWB needs to use its end-game stuff. The ability to pull off a quick mangle gives them 8-12 seconds to build that momentum, which opens up the kill strats they can't use when they're getting paralyzed on loop or having to take defensive action every 6 seconds.

The limb damage bonuses are only a problem when you have ~4200 health or less, because that's when DWB can break/prone and mangle you with each subsequent flail DWL. Once you have 4500+ health, your breakpoint is high enough that DWB can no longer permanently mangle you, but the health damage you take is ridiculous enough that your odds of surviving even the single mangle is slim. If we can tone down the raw health damage so that 4k-5k targets have a reasonable chance of surviving this easy mangle, WITHOUT nerfing DWB's damage against 6k+ targets, then its mangle capabilities won't be such a huge problem. They won't even lose the ability to damage spike, they still have torso Assault intended for that, you just don't see it used because current DWL damage is so high that torso Assault is almost redundant.

Jovolo said:

Look at the log, you mangled in the attack after you broke the leg. 

It actually takes him 2 hits after the breaks. He double-breaks, hits right leg, then hits right leg again for the mangle at the end. It is possible to single-break/prone and mangle on the next hit, but you have to do your prep work right, and you can't sustain that mangle like Monks used to. This isn't impossible to overcome, inherently, it's just the sheer damage and threat of Engage that don't give the target many options.

I mean we already have a lot of health-gating going on, we shouldn't need to expect people to have 4500+ hp now just to survive against one class as a hard rule. Might be better to just  make the limb damage static, at least while prone, if you're set on keeping the bonus limb damage.

Cooper

You guys would have really loved the days of the hugalulz Runewarden. I can't find a log anywhere, but I did find this snippet by me 6.5 years ago: "I killed Thrud from 5k with one dsl while he was in dragonform."

Here's a dsl Jhui posted in dform (pre dragonclass, no clue what class he was):

6605h, 7310m, 32080e, 29110w cexkdb- 22:25:37.234

Cooper's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.

Cooper slashes into you with a dwarven battleaxe!

A bolt of lightning hurls from the tip of the runeblade skywards, accompanied by

a crack of thunder.

With a series of hisses, small acidic hailstones pour down from above, battering

your body.

Lightning-quick, Cooper jabs you with a dwarven battleaxe.

A bolt of lightning hurls from the tip of the runeblade skywards, accompanied by

a crack of thunder.

With a series of hisses, small acidic hailstones pour down from above, battering

your body.

1897h, 7310m, 32080e, 29110w cexkdb- 22:25:37.312

Let's bring that back, then we can have some real tears.

Szanthax

Cooper said:

You guys would have really loved the days of the hugalulz Runewarden. I can't find a log anywhere, but I did find this snippet by me 6.5 years ago: "I killed Thrud from 5k with one dsl while he was in dragonform."

Dragonmonk lol

Aerek

Kiet said:

I mean we already have a lot of health-gating going on, we shouldn't need to expect people to have 4500+ hp now just to survive against one class as a hard rule. Might be better to just  make the limb damage static, at least while prone, if you're set on keeping the bonus limb damage.

That's my point. DWB just needs to be adjusted so that perma-mangles on low-health targets aren't a thing, and to have health damage adjusted so that you can actually survive DWL without being gragon, without removing DWB's ability to actually kill dragons.