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  • JovoloJovolo
    No lol, that's the point of it. It's not as bad as old doppie warp, but worth the comparison. @Iuneos high end soulspear damage from dragon corpses is comparable to kai choke. Between the 30-40% ballpark. It doesn't "also" break shield or lyre. If it does that, it ONLY does that. see: Breathstream.
  • JarrodJarrod
    The biggest problem with Soulspear is the complete abundance of soulspears. They don't have any of the limiters of the only similarly powered skill (Truename), so it's very hard to create a situation where you're not constantly at risk of multiple chained soulspears + LoS in an even-manned fight.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • StrataStrata United States of Derp
    edited October 2014
    Jovolo said:
    No lol, that's the point of it. It's not as bad as old doppie warp, but worth the comparison. @Iuneos high end soulspear damage from dragon corpses is comparable to kai choke. Between the 30-40% ballpark. It doesn't "also" break shield or lyre. If it does that, it ONLY does that. see: Breathstream.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Soulspear breaks through shield, reflections, and lyre - doing damage and impale. There is absolutely no counter for it except triggering yourself getting hit to "pt Soulspeared AGAIN! Empress plzzzzz." And hope your teammates have that triggered. Otherwise you're dead. M-train automated lupine snipes follow .000004 seconds later every time.

    Edit: So it really just comes down to who has the best ping.
  • JovoloJovolo
    Nah, shield stops damage/impale. If shield or lyre is up, it strips them and only strips them
  • IuneosIuneos
    It kabooms shield/lyre.
  • TeshaTesha
    The 30-40% damage is a pretty huge reason why soulspear is so strong... it's not only the impale. It's also the fact that snipers can hold down snipe on somoene who's shielded, and instantly hit once the spear breaks the shield. You can emulate that with breathstream, but breathstream doesn't impale if they aren't shielded. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation that's so powerful you can make that your exclusive strategy in raids; which also means you may see soulcage, vengeance, hands that only go away with dirge or after a certain amount of time, numb on your manakill user, vivisect, etc. as less powerful than they really are. Compared to soulspear, none of that is amazing other than the hands, but compared to everyone else's factional abilities, you guys are pretty well off. I'd trade in a heartbeat. 

     i'm a rebel

  • ExelethrilExelethril
    Several points..
    • negates earrings from range(have to writhe)
    • negates hold breath defense for kai chokes(have to writhe)
    • prone and impale allows for follow up Bite/BBT
    • keeps target in place(2-4(?) seconds) for LoS attacks
    • corpses aren't that hard to come by
    • random impale tick damage on top of 30-40+% damage
    I can see why giving the name of the necromancer that threw the spear sort of evens things, if the opposing team can switch targets fast enough and has enough LoS but that's not often the case. Soulspears are pretty effective at teaming in small group scenarios too and when you factor in gravehands in LoS, is pretty op.

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  • CooperCooper
    You're definitely right!

    Which is why I have a hard time supporting huge soulspear nerfs - in doing that, you take away the one completely unique thing to Mhaldor.

    Perform hands, angel aura, bedevil (not so useful in groups), dopplegangers/truename/tentacles/chaos rays/ents, groves, etc. are all very, very, very powerful things. It's hard to keep all of them in balance, though.

  • IuneosIuneos
    Besides like gravehands you know
  • HasarHasar
    Autowalk less son. And there should be a way to have a mapper go around a room, maybe.

  • FendrelFendrel
    Areablock mhaldor.
  • JhuiJhui
    probably need to give the defendable room a weight of like 50+ at least.  I think that's a setting
    image
  • KafzielKafziel
    Since you guys seem to care so much about the damage of soulspear how about we make it do no damage, double the impale length, make it area-wide and go through shield
  • SantarSantar
    Still wouldn't be as overpowered as the old doppleganger.

    image

  • MakariosMakarios
    I imagine we will do something to them this round (no guarantees, we're still discussing). My initial inclination would be to remove the impale since ranged writhes are a bit unfun to be on the receiving end, but that may be too drastic. Whatever the case I suspect we'd tweak a few other necromancy abilities to accommodate the loss, depending on how drastic it was.
  • ExelethrilExelethril

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  • HasarHasar
    edited October 2014
    Late tumble and enmesh too. And Darkender ditched you, what scum. And storm.

  • CooperCooper
    Makarios said:
    I imagine we will do something to them this round (no guarantees, we're still discussing). My initial inclination would be to remove the impale since ranged writhes are a bit unfun to be on the receiving end, but that may be too drastic. Whatever the case I suspect we'd tweak a few other necromancy abilities to accommodate the loss, depending on how drastic it was.

    Just remember that this is the only group/raid ability that Mhaldor has that no one else has. It's their factional advantage. Truename, doppie, all of Devotion, groves, etc. are all EXTREMELY powerful. Without soulspear Mhaldor has nothing unique that is useful in raids.

  • FendrelFendrel
    You still have a lot of factional advantages, because soulspear gets a slight nerf the world is not going to end.
  • JacenJacen
    beckon, bruh
    image
  • ExelethrilExelethril
    Hasar said:
    Late tumble and enmesh too. And Darkender ditched you, what scum. And storm.
    Late by 0.164 seconds. Also, serverside didn't writhe within 0.3 seconds for some reason. He is a ditcher though, hrrngh.

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  • HaliosHalios
    Should be a better way to tweak soulspear than to take away the impale imo.
  • XerXer Langley
    edited October 2014
    Transverse is absolutely terrible right now. Not even worth mentioning given its windup time, essence cost, and requirements. I don't remember anymore, but I think you might even need to be in the same area (would have to double check that), which if that's the case, it's not even usable for infiltration. I would much rather fly in, or track in than use Transverse, and save Apostates the essence cost of having to Blackwind, ghands and Transverse. Blackwind is -ok-, but also easily stoppable given its windup time (seriously, just prone them as they blackwind and they have to unblackwind, or stay blackwinded the whole fight). Soulcage is nice, but it's nothing game changing. Leprosy... what. You realise it also hits allies in the room, does 0 damage, it only hits two limbs and it's eq time is on the order of 3 seconds? In a sense, I suppose you can compare it to Trample... but Trample is probably better and it's a skill that everyone has access to. Deathaura does maybe about 3% every 8 ~ 10 seconds at low intelligence, maybe up to 8% at outlier intelligence with 19. Ghands is good, yes. Vengeance has a decently long eq time, and is also likely to get your team killed as well if you fight in a large melee. Not to mention people popping it when dying to LoS, requiring people to actually make use of it intelligently, or not at all. Vbombs are much harder to do - not necessarily impossible, but it's not on the level where you can say it's worth the death of a Apostate who has spears, can Cath, use ghands, or Beckon. In the case of Infernal, I'd much rather have stronger ranged utility with bows, and melee dsl Frenzy damage coupled with Engage, or Lunges with ghands rather than sacrifice them for Vengeance. 


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  • TeshaTesha
    Requiring people to use vengeance intelligently isn't a bad thing at all. It has amazing potential.

     i'm a rebel

  • SantarSantar
    Deathaura is -really- strong already.

    image

  • XerXer Langley
    edited October 2014
    I would say a Vbomb has less potential than a Dbomb, which additionally doesn't require as much risk, as much skill, and the Monk has a much higher chance of making it out alive (well, I suppose anything is better than a 100% rate of death for the skill to work).

    There certainly are a few niche situations where Vengeance can be used, but do note that Vengeance doesn't proc other necromancer Vengeances, and certain other abilities don't either, making an entire attempt to kill an enemy group revolve around a well-executed Vengeance strategy, which probably has a smaller % chance of working out than another one if you have the numbers/people to pull it off.

    Deathaura is ok. It's fairly strong in retardation, for sure - I've laughed at tons of deathaura kills gotten in retardation before. I wouldn't say it's too strong, but I wouldn't say it's weak either.

    Ultimately, the problem with the majority of those abilities that even in the niche, optimal situations where you want to use those abilities... there's probably a better alternative that doesn't involve using them, making them useless for the most part. If they could be redesigned to actually be the best option, situationally used, then sure, that'd be great. Smarter usage of class abilities for maximum effect in raids or single combat would be great.

    That said, soulspear stronk, just spam soulspear to win. Who cares about the other abilities :D
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  • DalranDalran
    Bard banishing gravehands was changed to be a channeled thing and uses eq if the necromancer is in room, if not I think its just a small eq cost.
  • JarrodJarrod
    I think Soulspear should be powerful, it's just too powerful right now in a world where the majority of fights are begun with LoS or have an LoS group involved.

    Impale/prone would be fine if it wasn't almost guaranteed that every Necro had 10+ of them available all the time. Their ease of attainability combined with their ease of use make the effect too powerful at that frequency. If you could use any Truename on any person, it would be a horrendously OP skill. This is a similar effect that does that.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

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