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Combat Logs

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  • AntoniusAntonius
    Exelethril said:
    I'm not 100% certain but I think that blunt Icon turns most avoidable death situations into unavoidable death situations based on how much raw damage it adds to monk combos and finishers.
    Icon plus artefacts turns something as basic as being prone with a broken leg into an unavoidable death situation for some people, I think. (Hi @Terra) I'm not sure how much each contributes, though; Icon alone probably isn't pushing things into absurd levels.

    I know that when I sparred Chapel (who had a blunt icon) there wasn't a noticeable increase in damage compared to other unartefacted monks. I'd only die if I screwed up - didn't tumble in time and took two BBTs with torso damage - but it's not as though the damage was so overwhelming that I was suddenly dying in situations I wouldn't have otherwise done. Of course, I have essentially every defensive artefact credits can buy, so my experience may not be typical.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygen
    edited November 2013
    nvm
  • SidoniaSidonia
    edited November 2013

    Antonius said:
    Icon alone probably isn't pushing things into absurd levels.
    I disagree with this, from the point of view of somebody mostly unartied (lvl 1 sip/bracelets - but I have only had these a couple of months). Against non-icon unartied monks I can reliably tank pretty much any standard setup and only feel like I am in danger against somebody that really knows what they're doing. With the icon included, even a double break with no torso damage becomes potentially deadly.
  • SantarSantar
    edited November 2013
    i'm in dform with dragonarmour up and an SoA(+20 blunt armour) wielded:

    No icon:

    6876h, 6252m, 33680e, 30336w cexkdb-07:07:04:758
    Nemutaur kicks his leg high and scythes downwards at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Stupidity Gained!+
    Head Beaten!+
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    3979h, 6252m, 33650e, 30324w cexkdb-07:07:06:497(-2897)


    With icon:

    6876h, 6252m, 33680e, 30560w cexkdb-07:08:33:067
    Nemutaur kicks his leg high and scythes downwards at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Stupidity Gained!+
    Head Beaten!+
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    2929h, 6252m, 33680e, 30560w cexkdb-07:08:34:576(-3947)

    Serpent form, scales up, 59 blunt scalemail(about as high as can be reasonably expected), and SoA(+20 blunt armour):

    No icon:

    5004h, 4380m, 24320e, 21200w cexkdb-07:13:27:177
    Nemutaur kicks his leg high and scythes downwards at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Stupidity Gained!+
    Head Beaten!+
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    1604h, 4380m, 24320e, 21200w cexkdb-07:13:28:028(-3400)

    With icon:

    5004h, 4010m, 24320e, 21200w cexkdb-07:14:22:302
    Nemutaur kicks his leg high and scythes downwards at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Stupidity Gained!+
    Head Beaten!+
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    Nemutaur launches a powerful uppercut at you.
    He connects to the head!
    1169h, 4010m, 24320e, 21200w cexkdb-07:14:22:840(-3835)


    Wanna recant that, Toni?

    It basically turns whatever armour they have into nothing, which is particularly brutal for dragons because dragons have no mounts or other good survival mechanism vs. Monk. Dragonarmour is supposed to be super high resists to let dragons survive vs this stuff, but it gets reduced to nothing by the blunt icon. That's not to say it's not overboard versus lesserforms too - Just the artied damage alone is brutal, throw in the icon and it's ridiculous.

    image

  • TerraTerra
    Antonius said:
    Exelethril said:
    I'm not 100% certain but I think that blunt Icon turns most avoidable death situations into unavoidable death situations based on how much raw damage it adds to monk combos and finishers.
    Icon plus artefacts turns something as basic as being prone with a broken leg into an unavoidable death situation for some people, I think. (Hi @Terra) I'm not sure how much each contributes, though; Icon alone probably isn't pushing things into absurd levels.

    :(
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    edited November 2013
    That's great, but the person who posted the log was BM in Mir with the highfavour shield, and still got hit for 78%+ health. There should be at least -some- things that help you tank that crap, it shouldn't just be a free pass to fuck up anyone you want :/

    Truth is, I don't mind being smacked for a shitload with BBT + torso, at least you can do something about it. But 3/4+ your health, no matter your condition, via something that you don't even really have to work for, is pretty silly :D
  • IocunIocun
    Anedhel said:

    Truth is, I don't mind being smacked for a shitload with BBT + torso, at least you can do something about it.
    I don't see how BBT+torso is any harder to get or more viable to work against, assuming the torso break happens in the same combo as the leg break.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • CooperCooper
    1 BBT with torso damage isn't going to kill people, it takes two, which means you can't break it in the same combo as a leg and requires four limbs + torso to be set up rather than just 1 leg/torso

  • IocunIocun
    We aren't talking about "normal monks" here, but artied Ashuran monks.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Requiring a torso break and two hits to kill you gives you a chance to tumble. You can still be killed if you get enfeebled first, possibly if artiemonk chokes/crushes you after, too, but it's at least something you can more or less try and interrupt/do something about. You can't stay above 3/4 health all the time- might as well never fight. :/
  • IocunIocun
    edited November 2013
    What? It's not "a torso break AND two hits to kill". It's the breaking combo (which already does a very good amount of pre-damage) and then the bbt. And then you're dead. You can't tumble in that time. There's really no difference to the axk scenario there.


    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • TerraTerra
    Iocun said:
    Anedhel said:

    Truth is, I don't mind being smacked for a shitload with BBT + torso, at least you can do something about it.
    I don't see how BBT+torso is any harder to get or more viable to work against, assuming the torso break happens in the same combo as the leg break.

    It's actually significantly different, even if BBT+torso were as strong. It takes twice as long to prep than single leg break (for whatever that's worth) and it is possible to stop with something like preapply restoration, unlike double leg break/axk.

    AXK should do less damage or require broken head to do the damage it currently does. Blunt icon isn't really the problem b/c low armour classes face the same problem blunt icon or not.

  • IocunIocun
    edited November 2013
    How does prepping torso and one leg take longer than prepping two legs?

    Sure, you could do the axk thing with only one prepped leg, but then you could also pre-apply as well.

    Also keep in mind that with the BBT thing, stance doesn't matter, so you can make it even easier for yourself and go all into jumpkicks.

    In the end, none of that is all that relevant though. Two prepped limbs is still far too easy to get for a guaranteed kill and pre-applying is far too unreliable to be counted as a viable defense. Although I guess it will work well against non-smart monks.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • TerraTerra
    edited November 2013
    Iocun said:
    How does prepping torso and one leg take longer than prepping two legs?

    Sure, you could do the axk thing with only one prepped leg, but then you could also pre-apply as well.

    I think you misunderstood me. I said it's different from single leg break because it takes longer. It's different from double leg break b/c you can preapply. Thus, it is worse than both.

    Edit: I'd love to have an easier to use defense than preapply. But I'd rather have preapply than nothing, b/c it's fairly effective a lot of the time. Don't have either against double break/axk!

  • IocunIocun
    Fair enough. There's still the jpk thing though to counter it.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Mild internal trauma BBT hurts less than axekick, from what I've seen. Not to mention, you can change your priority to apply restoration to torso instead of legs, and you'll get BBT'd twice (or three times with double leg break), but that's -still- less than axekick, reason being between BBTs, you can sip/eat moss/get regen ticks. It's the 3/4+ your health gone in one single hit that's nuts.
  • RangorRangor
    Only way to beat a monk is to get 250+++++ speed handaxe and keep the limbs permanently broken. LETS SEE YOU ONESHOT ME WITH AXK THEN!
    image
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Algiz and plate don't count for shit against those homies :(
  • JhuiJhui
    there's just a weird divide to be honest.

    16+str ashuran monks = untankable by all classes with very basic setup required

    16+str regular monks = untankable by classes that still take 70-80% axk's (jester, bard, etc.), 100% tankable by tanky classes even with the most complex setups, (runie, apo, infernal, mage, Mir BM)

    <16 str ashuran monks = untankable by untanky classes with basic setups, may need complex setup to kill tanky people, but definitely possible
    <16 str regular monks = can't kill shit

    This is all assuming the person defending knows what they're doing.

    Icon clearly is OP.
    AXK is heavily influenced by STR and heavily resisted by armour, so it will only be OP vs untanky opponents
    image
  • PenwizePenwize
    That's a pretty good way of putting it really.  AXK scaling and blunt icon stack together crazy well, but just straight nerfing them will leave all monks in the "100% tankable" category against the tanky classes. I've been trying to think of classleads to fix it but unless I know the blunt icon is going to get changed I just can't see monks actually getting changes that will help those who are unartied or uniconed.
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    Oh noes! Tanky classes will be tanky. Can't have that :O
  • RangorRangor
    Used to be you could 4x bbt people and insta kill! Should just bring back that possibility.
    image
  • JhuiJhui
    Anedhel said:
    Oh noes! Tanky classes will be tanky. Can't have that :O
    There's a difference between being tanky (hard to kill) and having 0% chance at killing them.  Hence, coming up with intelligent classleads that address killing tanky people using much harder methods than untanky.


    image
  • PenwizePenwize
    Anedhel said:
    Oh noes! Tanky classes will be tanky. Can't have that :O
    There's a difference between tanky and unkillable.  If you can completely tank a monk's 4-limb + torso setup that's executed perfectly, that monk can't kill you.


    Rangor said:
    Used to be you could 4x bbt people and insta kill! Should just bring back that possibility.
    Would be nice if that was still viable, but 4 BBTs in a row used to only really be possible with Raja balance and older curing systems, with people less likely to shield instantly on stand and such.  Combat landscape's changed a lot since then.
  • AnedhelAnedhel
    edited November 2013
    Nvm. If you say so.
  • XerXer Langley
    edited November 2013
    Just gives Monk old Tremolo on a 2 second cool down, independent of balance equilibrium.. That should do the trick for achieving 4 bbt's in a row. Waaaaiiiitttttttt a second.....

    Regarding Enfeeble - You can simply avoid hitting the Monk and wait until their Kai dissipates and never get it up to the point where they can get enough Kai to actually Enfeeble. When I want to execute my offence unhindered, I make sure to try and deplete the majority of their Kai before starting so I don't get crippled midway. Can do the same for defensive reasons.

    Of course, if they can kill you without Enfeeble, then it's sorta moot anyways >.>
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygen
    @Anedhel because tanky class vs 15str monk =/= kill on a fair setup. Needs to be NEAR perfect.
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