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  • SynbiosSynbios
    Mishgul said:
    Your face is acute, ho. Now gtfo.

    @Tvistor, I think he's hitting on you. Or hitting you. 

  • TvistorTvistor
    Daeir said:
    Vadimuses said:
    Tvistor, who if I recall correctly, has moved to Australia, pretty much has no chance with the vivi triggered off the hydra web.

    Only kai cripple (for cripplesect) and enfeeble (for enfeeble/absolve) gives an aura.
    Reading this suddenly makes me want to play the game a little less.

    That's pretty lame, that there are strategies so powerful that any possible counters have to be exacted within 250ms or you lose. It's like this game was built to be played by robots sometimes.
    Keep in mind that there aren't supposed to be forestals in Mhaldor. Hydrabind/trample/vivisect shouldn't technically be possible, but the decision was to let the forestals remain post-alchemist because of lesson/time investments.
  • SherazadSherazad Planef Urth
    Tvistor said:
    Daeir said:
    Vadimuses said:
    Tvistor, who if I recall correctly, has moved to Australia, pretty much has no chance with the vivi triggered off the hydra web.

    Only kai cripple (for cripplesect) and enfeeble (for enfeeble/absolve) gives an aura.
    Reading this suddenly makes me want to play the game a little less.

    That's pretty lame, that there are strategies so powerful that any possible counters have to be exacted within 250ms or you lose. It's like this game was built to be played by robots sometimes.
    Keep in mind that there aren't supposed to be forestals in Mhaldor. Hydrabind/trample/vivisect shouldn't technically be possible, but the decision was to let the forestals remain post-alchemist because of lesson/time investments.
    Ebon Fist had a project where we lent credits for people to trans skills. I heard Aepas remained a forestal only because he foresaw your betrayal. 
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
     내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


  • TvistorTvistor
    ...

    What.
  • SherazadSherazad Planef Urth
    Tvistor said:
    ...

    What.
    Yes.
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
     내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


  • CahinCahin
    XD

    I knew the second it was posted people would try to get it nerfed.  I don't mind it getting nerfed seeing as how Mhaldor's current policy with necromancers requires them to be Mhaldorian.
    This restricts it's use to a Mhaldorian and a druid.  Basically, Aepas and another Mhaldorian necromancer can do this.

    We have been pretty conservative with it's use. We've known about it for 3 weeks now and killed someone I think 3 times total with it.  Maybe only 2 and 1 failed attempt.

    Trample wasn't given the auras listed because of the reasons stated before, but that doesn't mean I don't think there was oversight.  Getting a target to stay proned for a trample and having a vivisect immediately available will usually requires at least 3 people outside of circumstances like a totem and such.  Think of all of the strategies that can be pulled off with zero to slim chance of escape with the right 3 man class compositions.

    I think hydra web to trample should be evaluated instead of any sort of aura being added.  It is essentially a kai cripple that webs instead of prones that requires hydra morph uses 3.6 second balance with nimble and requires no prekai.  Amazing hinder and entry attack in a melee or gank. 

    Anyways, though, the line forms in classleads and I think that line is well out the door and 8 months down the sidewalk.

    I gotta go, later.

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Make hydra web give an aura that prevents all attacks for 2 seconds. I agree

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • TvistorTvistor
    That's true, but the coordination gets a lot harder with three people. Aepas for instance, has horrible latency. In this case he's initiating, so you can use your steroid internet to vivisect right off the bat. If someone had to hangedman (I'm assuming everything is balanced around Buckawns, so no web) the second person would need to trample, and the third person would need to vivi. That basically doubles your time to respond by applying a salve (though if you found someone else on your latency/were fighting an Asian, they're still dead).
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Moving on. Cats are terrible creatures.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • TvistorTvistor
    Let us talk about how cool Cahin is.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Cahin smells like cats. Terrible

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • TvistorTvistor
    You are still obtuse
  • IocunIocun
    edited February 2013
    Cahin said:
    Getting a target to stay proned for a trample and having a vivisect immediately available will usually requires at least 3 people outside of circumstances like a totem and such.
    Uh... what?
    There are several other ways to very easily and quickly guarantee a trample for a single person. Sure, most of them aren't quite as instantaneous as hydra bind/trample, but many of them still allow for practically no way to escape it.

    Hydra bind/trample is not the problem here. The issue does lie in two-person trample/vivi.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Iocun said:
    Cahin said:
    Getting a target to stay proned for a trample and having a vivisect immediately available will usually requires at least 3 people outside of circumstances like a totem and such.
    Uh... what?
    There are several other ways to very easily and quickly guarantee a trample for a single person. Sure, most of them aren't quite as instantaneous as hydra bind/trample, but many of them still allow for practically no way to escape it.

    Hydra bind/trample is not the problem here. The issue does lie in two-person trample/vivi.
    There are none in which an opponent cannot escape from the initiation of a 2 v 1 until the point of no return, minus hydra bind.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • TvistorTvistor
    All the cases I can think of that result in a vivisect nearly instantly require three people (except for hydra bind).
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Iocun said:


    Cahin said:

    Getting a target to stay proned for a trample and having a vivisect immediately available will usually requires at least 3 people outside of circumstances like a totem and such.

    Uh... what?
    There are several other ways to very easily and quickly guarantee a trample for a single person. Sure, most of them aren't quite as instantaneous as hydra bind/trample, but many of them still allow for practically no way to escape it.

    Hydra bind/trample is not the problem here. The issue does lie in two-person trample/vivi.


    This isn't very logical in my opinion. The more people following me, the faster the point of no return should be reached, and that is how it is for many class combinations. For what reason should one person be able to escape three?

    Just because an apostates will kill sooner does not mean the point of no return is any quicker.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • IocunIocun
    edited February 2013
    What about, say, webtattoo/trample, or hangedman/trample, or vodun bind/trample (granted, this one requires a puppet and isn't so practical)?
    Sure they have to wait for balance before trampling, but most people don't have a quick enough way to escape while bound/webbed/entangled, so it doesn't change all that much. And yes, hangedman often isn't quite fast enough, but it still frequently enough is. Web easily is, if you don't have buckawn's. And then there are all the other situations that aren't un-fleeable, but still are very close in power, such as void/para/trample or strip deaf/trumpet/trample or enmesh/trample or shadowstrike/trample. Yes, you can flee them, but only if you make sure never to be unbalanced at the wrong moment.
    Sabiru said:
    Hydra bind is the problem, yes. Bind-through-buckawns was a terrible classlead adjustment.

    The solution is to reverse that particular change.
    Buckawns shouldn't be a requirement for not getting instakilled without any prep out of the blue. Balancing an ability around a defensive artefact seems quite questionable.


    I never talked about 1v3, only about 1v2 situations.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    So you are saying we should eliminate risk because people die?

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • IocunIocun
    edited February 2013
    No. But if the only way to escape web/trample/vivi is to either buy an artefact or an escape/hindering ability usable while prone, that seems excessive.

    I'm absolutely fine with unavoidable kills in 3v1 situations, and hard-to-avoid kills in 2v1, but not with extremely quick and nigh-impossible to avoid kills in 2v1.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • SabiruSabiru
    Buckawns has always been a requirement for not getting instakilled without any prep out of the blue.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Iocun said:

    No. But if the only way to escape web/trample/vivi is to either buy an artefact or an escape/hindering ability usable while prone, that seems excessive.


    I'm absolutely fine with unavoidable kills in 1v3 situations, and hard-to-avoid kills in 1v2.
    Web trample is a 1 v 3 situation

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • IocunIocun
    ? I'm talking about the same person webbing and trampling.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • SabiruSabiru
    Does this person have a diadem?
  • IocunIocun
    edited February 2013
    Quick-witted should be sufficient as well, I believe, although very narrowly (depends a lot on the victim's latency). But yes, diadem works too. And if you're saying "that's using an artefact, so it rightfully should overpower those who don't have its counter-artefact (buckawns)" - I disagree. Artefacts should make you more powerful than an unartefacted opponent, but not in such an absolute binary fashion.

    →My Mudlet Scripts

  • SabiruSabiru
    A sound, arti-independent solution would be to make hydra bind act as a temporary vinewreathe - for the length of the 3rd head balance, perhaps. This keeps the functionality for the druid class 1v1 while addressing this glaring issue once-and-for-all.
  • TvistorTvistor
    He is saying having Buckawn's is an unreasonable prerequisite to balance the ability to instantly explode someone's face against.

    But it must also earn a ton of money to do exactly that, so idk.
  • SabiruSabiru
    Thank you for translating. In light of this new information, perhaps I was a little heavy-handed.

    Really, half of the 3rd head balance would probably be long enough, unless some kind of cooldown were implemented where it couldn't be used on the same person twice in a row.
  • AepasAepas
    Oi oi, I'm sorry I abused an oversight as the last possible druid that will ever be able to do something so awesome. Let's just agree I won't do it anymore, nothing really has to be mechanically changed, and let's carry on with getting real combat logs in here. If you'd like, we can discuss the trample/vivi/druid is so kewl tactics elsewhere.

    Combat logs, anyone?
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
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