Building a Better Theft System

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  • Will pay 50,000 credits for just my character to have old theft, just because it's really the only thing in game that was ever truly mystifying or thrilling to me and I was never unreasonable or an asshole about it. Somehow the topic of old theft came up in my head for like, a little bit. I started crying. Still teary eyed at the time of writing this. P. sure theft is what made me stay in Achaea, now thinking back on it is nothing but an emotional ride filled with pain. I understand there were big losses, but honestly if there was THAT MUCH stolen and you were obviously d/ced just file an issue goddammit, even if the thief is a total twat, one lil admin message and it's all patched up. But alas, that would take up admin time, so that won't do, either. Need to stop thinking about this before I have a panic attack because I'm getting close, there's my thoughts, sorry for long incoherent post.
    /emo

    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Prolly worth hanging off until Serpents' classlead comes through.  Shouldn't be long now...
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • Sylvance said:
    Prolly worth hanging off until Serpents' classlead comes through.  Shouldn't be long now...
    I just had to let out some emotion. Theft was the first thing that really took Achaea and made me say WOW, this is like a real world, with real dangers. It was absolutely stunning and beautiful. I was in tears and flipping out just thinking about missing it and had to post something to let it out.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Cesarina said:
    Sylvance said:
    Prolly worth hanging off until Serpents' classlead comes through.  Shouldn't be long now...
    I just had to let out some emotion. Theft was the first thing that really took Achaea and made me say WOW, this is like a real world, with real dangers. It was absolutely stunning and beautiful. I was in tears and flipping out just thinking about missing it and had to post something to let it out.
    @Cesarina - Sorry, to be clear I wasn't saying to stop posting stuff/shut up, rather that theft might well get a little love during this round of classleads <3
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • The proposal drew me out of lurking, damn you Vayne and sad sack that I am, how to "build a better theft system" is something I still think about, even though I'm not playing very actively any more.

    Of course what I really want to do is argue for the old system, but I'll restrain myself.  Blujiaslkdjaskj makes some good points on the other side of that argument that I disagree with, but that are totally valid and it looks like the admin came down on that side of the argument and that's that.  It sucks, but there you are.

    But I do get a feeling that a lot of people (even a lot of people who didn't like the old system very much) think something is missing now.  The good bits of theft - the danger, the forcing of self-reliance, the RP initiation opportunities, the mystique, the permitting an interesting RP archetype to play the game, is all gone.  Pickpocketing, let's be honest, is a boring vanilla mechanic that's about as much fun as syphilis.

    So how can you bring those things back while still addressing administrative concerns?

    First, I have some criticisms of Vayne's system.  The "tagging", "fencing" mechanic is a bit... one-note.  It's a forced response to something that should be fluid.  It drives people's options into a narrow band that is pretty boring.  (Which is not to say we shouldn't have fences, we totally should, they're awesome - but it shouldn't be the only thing we can have).  Secondly, tying recovery of items to PK is going to have some very annoying unintended consequences.  It will encourage thieves to wait the period out in their city.  It will encourage thieves to congregate in whatever city is the 800lb gorilla in the room at the time.  It'll basically make thieves more Glint-like, and that's never good.  It is also, I suspect, very difficult to code.  You can thieve in a number of ways, and it'll be tricky to flag them all up properly.

    But the admin have decided that the anti-theft crowd have legitimate concerns too.  I'll try and summarise them as fairly as I can:

    (i) precious items can be lost with no prospect of recovery;
    (ii) thieves don't suffer consequences; and
    (iii) new players get screwed.

    I have a particular sympathy with journal theft.  Lots of thieves accumulated hundreds of journals that they never read, or did anything interesting with and a lot of players lost hundreds of hours of stuff that was very precious to them and represented a lot of their hard work.

    The "answer" to (i) in the old system was selfishness.  It's a good answer, but not a perfect one.  People get DC'd, it puts an onus on people to be very careful every time they log in, every time they hand something over voluntarily, every time they die, every time they come out of the arena.  I liked that kind of world, but I can get that some people wouldn't.  My solution to that would be to allow a system for marking precious items so that they are subject to the pickpocket system.  And everyone should start out with a journal that is pre-marked.  It should be cheap, and easy (maybe every city has one, and it costs a couple hundred gold), but probably limited in some way.  Maybe 1 key, 2 items of jewellery - that kind of thing, make it meaningful so that only genuinely precious items can be protected (I'd be totally up for negotiation on the limits).  This preserves all the good, fluid aspects of old-skool theft while, I think, respecting people's concerns.  On gold, I do think it's legitimate that people shouldn't lose a fortune for a moment's inattention - maybe a gold cap on what can be stolen in any one day?  Something like that.

    (ii) I think thieves should suffer consequences, I'd be up for discussing whatever they could be.  Extending free PK, some kind of NPC hunt system, some way to bar thieves from their cities or safe rooms if they have recently stolen (if it's possible), whatever.  I'm sure people can brainstorm things that are exciting enough - although we should recognise it is, in part, a player responsibility to make consequences meaningful;

    (iii) For newbie help, again, the sky should be the limit - up the level restriction, make selfishness automatic on log-in, extend the play-time restrictions for thievery.  Anything and everything should be open on that front.  But I don't think we should let newbie retention remove the whole mechanic or render it inert and pointless and dull.  No more than we do for PK, aggro denizens or any of the other fun things that can happen to you as a newbie.

    In summary, I think the pickpocket system should be retained in a limited way so that people can protect the things that are meaningful to them, but we should revert to old-skool plus for everything else.  Just my 2 cents anyway.

  • edited May 2013
    Honestly I feel that with the old system things would be fine if people would stop blowing things out of proportion. As I previously stated yes, sometimes you get d/ced, and yes, that sucks. However, if you do get d/ced any legitimate player that isn't a total troll will understand and, even if you don't get your gold back, at least you'll get your fancy non decay baubles. If they are that big of a jerk, just issue, say you were disconnected and got stolen from while unable to do anything about it, should be like a 2 second fix (Admin does msg <thief> give back <persons> fancy order item or you get b& kthx) they don't even have to bother manually putting the item back in the other players inventory. I know people wanna come up with fancy new ways to go about it, and I know the odds of getting original theft back are stupidly low, but with a few preventative measures (make forced actions on unranked players literally impossible, for example, to save newbies, extend how long you are unranked by how long you've been dormant) there wouldn't be any issue. That covers the d/c, newbie, and dormant bases. There's one more base to touch. If you go AFK, and you lose 10,000cr worth of stuff, you are a moron and deserve to lose 20,000cr worth of stuff. rant over.

    quick edit: more consequences would be fine, I think if you steal you should be open to big massive 10-man ganks with no retribution or cause gained, like a damn witchhunt, but if you aren't allowed to phase or enter a city after stealing as some people have brought up, that's loltarded and makes no sense at all.
    other quick edit: yes a lot of thieves don't RP, but for those of us that DO, stealing letters to a house leader, journals full of secrets, or some manuscript of you professing your love for some qt Siren, opens up numerous interesting and engaging things to be done.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • edited May 2013

    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • edited May 2013
    Cesarina said:
    stuff
    I would love to see old theft back, but the only way that this (^) type of demand is going to end up is with the kind of flame-nuke-fest that took up a whole page of this thread. There are people on the other side of the fence who feel just as strongly as you do. All that will accomplish is getting the thread closed, and likely be used as evidence that thieves aren't moderate enough to be trusted with anything resembling old-theft.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • KhalazKhalaz Northern California
    Coming from somebody who spent very minimal time as a serpent, I found that the roleplay and activity from serpents before theft changes to now, has decreased massively. I miss it, everyone misses it, and that's coming from a character that has been robbed, angry and upset by it, and yet its a natural thing in Achaean life. Protect your investments or you'll be stolen from.

    I feel as if the changes Admin made to theft is a main reason for loss of community, a main loss for activity in a large amount of plays simply by eliminating a source of strong, emotional RP for multiple parties. If you deny a noticeable change in player base numbers then you are ignorant, or holding on to false hopes. We are not happy. Loyal players who have been here for years and spend thousands of dollars to fund your god damn game are not happy, and you are unwilling to make simple changes to fix that and revert to older methods because some new blood is upset? Or some admin is upset blah blah who cares. We are your only voice, you will lose your game if you dont listen to the people.

    Khalaz.
  • edited May 2013
    Sylvance said:
    I would love to see old theft back, but the only way that this (^) type of demand is going to end up is with the kind of flame-nuke-fest that took up a whole page of this thread. There are people on the other side of the fence who feel just as strongly as you do. All that will accomplish is getting the thread closed, and likely be used as evidence that thieves aren't moderate enough to be trusted with anything resembling old-theft.
    I am aware. As I said I am literally just fuming and have to type it out publicly (yes, publicly, the only way I can get out feelings is if I am making a scene, don't ask why, I am emotionally damaged.) That's why I said I will probably delete the post.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Khalaz post thingy (spot on chap) 
    It's just really distressing, yes there's people that strongly argue AGAINST it, and I can (force myself to vaguely) see their point(s), but they are all easily rectified. I think the biggest hamper on things is 'fear' people immediately think "OMG old theft?! not my precious goodies that have been safe since pickpocket went in! omg I have to think to protect my stuff again!!" and that's just people being stubborn.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Cesarina said:
    I understand there were big losses, but honestly if there was THAT MUCH stolen and you were obviously d/ced just file an issue goddammit, even if the thief is a total twat, one lil admin message and it's all patched up. But alas, that would take up admin time, so that won't do, either. Need to stop thinking about this before I have a panic attack because I'm getting close, there's my thoughts, sorry for long incoherent post.
    /emo

    Necro'd, but hey, I'm still invested in this topic so I'll add some more thoughts. First off, I have really not heard of this happening and have, in contrast, heard admin responses of "Oh well, we have no way to prove you weren't just AFK for hours and hours while people took all your worldly possessions." This is a big part of the issue with old theft, nothing could be done for someone that really loses everything, if the thief is unwilling to cooperate. While I am a thief, I also recognize for the VAST majority of players, there is almost never "enjoyable" theft, and so I do not act just in accordance with what I find fun or thrilling.

    I personally feel a lot of "thieves remorse" for the thefts I do and that keeps me in check and prevents me from going overboard and taking advantage of every opportunity I see to rob people, which let's face it, is pretty much constantly happening. Consequences for the thieves that cannot control themselves at all and are becoming extremely detrimental to the game because they're making people want to leave, is what is needed in my opinion, and maybe that needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

    I would still like to see a few more things open to be pickpocketed, especially journals. If your journal is really that valuable to you, you can contact the thief and try to negotiate a return, or put 50 credits into making it returning, or just put it in a container that's difficult for us to get to. There are several options available to victims to make things more difficult for us.

    One other thing I'd also like to say is that there's a lot of this "thieves just want to grief and will laugh in your face if you contact them to negotiate a return." This is simply untrue most of the time. While it may be the case for some very griefy thieves, I think for the most part, we'd much rather have your gold than your precious (and utterly useless to us), journals or jewellery.
  • Kaitali said:
    <some awesome things>
    Yes, while I agree some people have no restraint, there's people like we are, that aren't jerks about it. Case by case basis would be perfectly fine. Honestly, I do target letters and journals, letters were the first thing on my priority list, private information. It's great for spy RP or just "holding it over someone" in some sort of neat blackmail attempt, there is so much awesome to be had. But with pickpocketing you cannot target the item directly. Let's face it, often in old and new theft unless someone is afk you can only realistically get one item before they go running away. You want that to be the fancy order item or private journal, because it opens up an avenue of roleplaying that cannot be obtained anywhere else.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • KhalazKhalaz Northern California
    What Cesarina said, she's highly experienced and informed, but what she neglected to add is that you are promoting laziness. You are not the same Achaea that we remember, we love, appreciate. You are "balancing" your game for what, newbies, lazy people that dont stop complaining on forums? Congrats, you made one group happy and pissed off another, us. The people that have played for a decade and still WANT to play, with no real fun left to do so. 

    Laziness. That's what you promote in Achaea now.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Completely derailing here, but I do wonder how many people on QW at any one time are just sat afk/semi-afk on a guardstack.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • Mishgul said:
    Completely derailing here, but I do wonder how many people on QW at any one time are just sat afk/semi-afk on a guardstack.
    I can tell you that on average (not fully afk, semi as you said) over a quarter at least seem to be. I've had times where I scan wholist and store all locations in a table like ... 8 times, and most often only like 1/3 of the names moved at all, then you can go stand still in popular spots like battlements or *fish street or obscure random bits of Cyrene and they don't acknowledge you, move, or talk at all.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Just to add my two cents, if there is a new theft system, I would like it to be something that is deeper than anything that essentially boils down to "Wait for them to go AFK."
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • edited May 2013
    Sylvance said:
    Just to add my two cents, if there is a new theft system, I would like it to be something that is deeper than anything that essentially boils down to "Wait for them to go AFK."
    shhhh you are compromising, don't say 'if there is a new theft system' because then the universe will give us a new theft system. You have to say "when old theft is reinstated, I will be glad that <stuff> happen(s|ed)" 

    edit notes: effing quotes, how do they work?
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • edited May 2013
    Cesarina said:
    Sylvance said:
    Just to add my two cents, if there is a new theft system, I would like it to be something that is deeper than anything that essentially boils down to "Wait for them to go AFK."
    ---------------------------------------------
    shhhh you are compromising, don't say 'if there is a new theft system' because then the universe will give us a new theft system. You have to say "when old theft is reinstated, I will be glad that <stuff> happen(s|ed)" 

    edit notes: effing quotes, how do they work?
    Quotes hate me too. Just italicise everything in the quotes box. Always seems to fix it for me. NO FREAKING CLUE why that should fix it, but it does.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • God damn why did this abomination of a thread get necroed.

    ilu fancy tart.
    Because it's vitally important to Achaea as a whole.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Don't blame me, someone else necro'd.  You know I can't resist the opportunity to share my wisdom with the unwashed.  (Also, genuinely interested - would a revamped theft system along the lines of my post address your concerns with theft or not?).  There's a whole lot of crazy on the anti-theft side, and I am appointing you poster child of the "Wrong, but rational" opposition.
  • edited May 2013
    Cesarina said:

    Because it's vitally important to Achaea as a whole.
    So start a new thread that doesn't have all the baggage this one does.
    image
  • So start a new thread that doesn't have so much baggage.
    Well I didn't want to seeing as this already existed, figured it'd get removed or redirected to this.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • I'm personally quite amazed that this one wasn't closed two pages ago, but hey, as it's still here...
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • Sylvance said:
    I'm personally quite amazed that this one wasn't closed two pages ago, but hey, as it's still here...
    Hey, if admins wanna take everything from my first post and on and place it elsewhere...

    But, honestly, since quite a few gave input since my post, it'd be awkward and nonsensical to be like hey, repost that on this new one kthx.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • Sure, you can have it back. Two changes though:

    1. When carrying a hot item, veils do not work
    2. When you die while carrying a hot item, you drop EVERYTHING including pack, gold, items and clothes.

    Please sign below in blood.

  • edited May 2013
    Also, genuinely interested - would a revamped theft system along the lines of my post address your concerns with theft or not?
    ... allow a system for marking precious items so that they are subject to the pickpocket system.  And everyone should start out with a journal that is pre-marked.  It should be cheap, and easy (maybe every city has one, and it costs a couple hundred gold), but probably limited in some way.  Maybe 1 key, 2 items of jewellery - that kind of thing, make it meaningful so that only genuinely precious items can be protected ...

    ... thieves should suffer consequences, I'd be up for discussing whatever they could be.  Extending free PK, some kind of NPC hunt system, some way to bar thieves from their cities or safe rooms if they have recently stolen (if it's possible) ...

    (iii) For newbie help, again, the sky should be the limit - up the level restriction, make selfishness automatic on log-in, extend the play-time restrictions for thievery.  Anything and everything should be open on that front.

    [spoiler]Maybe. Who knows! Impossible to say without seeing it in full.

    I think my issues with old theft do overlap with those three things you listed:

    1. It was mechanically impossible to retrieve your stolen items if you didn't have a theft skill yourself. Once a theft attempt succeeded, all the power was in the thief's hands, and getting your stuff back required some form of mercy on their part (eg. them being willing to sell back your item; even if you begged or bullied, they were free to say "no!" and log out, to spite you). This was magnified by common theft targets being unique, sentimental items. This feeling of powerlessness sucked, especially because...

    2. Thieves could mitigate all consequences (open PK) and continue to be thieves, provided they could deal with being hunted. Killing a thief accomplished next to nothing, unless you were engaging them literally 100% of the time they were logged in.

    3. Theft mechanics encouraged going after the most vulnerable - AFK people and just-past-newbies. These were the people least likely to enjoy it. If you were robbed while linkdead, you wouldn't even know who stole from you. Obviously thieves had no reason to show mercy to people who choose to go AFK, but it was still a system that promoted avoiding interaction.

    People are of course never going to enjoy being robbed, but I think it could be much less unfun while still having the sandboxy feeling of freedom old theft used to have.[/spoiler]
    Cesarina, don't take my participation in your terrible undead abomination of a thread as an endorsement of necromancy.
    image
  • Khalaz and Cesarina pretty much summed up my opinion. I've been stolen from several times, by Trance, Jarrel, Profit, Pteron and some others as well, but I never thought of rage-quitting the game because of it simply because I knew it was 100% my fault. Actually, it made my gaming experience more pleasant with the interactions we had after. It's true that I lost some important journals, but it also made me pay more attention in the future.
    Those of you who still remember Trance or Arelas will probably vote for the old theft system as well, those guys made us laugh irl for like half an hour after each attempt.

    I believe we can all agree that the implementing of pickpocketing only managed to take away a very important aspect of the game and with that, the drive of many of us to become Serpents.
  • Kaitali said:
    Cesarina said:
    I understand there were big losses, but honestly if there was THAT MUCH stolen and you were obviously d/ced just file an issue goddammit, even if the thief is a total twat, one lil admin message and it's all patched up. But alas, that would take up admin time, so that won't do, either. Need to stop thinking about this before I have a panic attack because I'm getting close, there's my thoughts, sorry for long incoherent post.
    /emo

    Necro'd, but hey, I'm still invested in this topic so I'll add some more thoughts. First off, I have really not heard of this happening and have, in contrast, heard admin responses of "Oh well, we have no way to prove you weren't just AFK for hours and hours while people took all your worldly possessions." This is a big part of the issue with old theft, nothing could be done for someone that really loses everything, if the thief is unwilling to cooperate. While I am a thief, I also recognize for the VAST majority of players, there is almost never "enjoyable" theft, and so I do not act just in accordance with what I find fun or thrilling.

    I personally feel a lot of "thieves remorse" for the thefts I do and that keeps me in check and prevents me from going overboard and taking advantage of every opportunity I see to rob people, which let's face it, is pretty much constantly happening. Consequences for the thieves that cannot control themselves at all and are becoming extremely detrimental to the game because they're making people want to leave, is what is needed in my opinion, and maybe that needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

    I would still like to see a few more things open to be pickpocketed, especially journals. If your journal is really that valuable to you, you can contact the thief and try to negotiate a return, or put 50 credits into making it returning, or just put it in a container that's difficult for us to get to. There are several options available to victims to make things more difficult for us.

    One other thing I'd also like to say is that there's a lot of this "thieves just want to grief and will laugh in your face if you contact them to negotiate a return." This is simply untrue most of the time. While it may be the case for some very griefy thieves, I think for the most part, we'd much rather have your gold than your precious (and utterly useless to us), journals or jewellery.

    But you see, these arguments are terrible.  You can't rely on "thieves remorse", because not all thieves are as lovely as you.  We had some awesome thieves, it's true, but let's be honest, they were outnumbered by the asshats.

    Arguing for theft to be extended to journals especially is just awful.  That is the weakest possible case.  Not everyone will sell journals back at an appropriate price.  In fact, the more precious the journal, the higher price likely to be demanded.  Most thieves of any prolificity (if that's a word) had hundreds of the things.  This is a bad thing.  It's a power imbalance, that should be addressed.  The single unflexible rule of Achaea is that relying on player restraint is total folly.  Any mechanic that can be abused, will be abused.  You need a system in place to stop that abuse.

    @Blujixapug You're encouraging me to write up a full proposal you know.  I hope you know that.

This discussion has been closed.