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Building a Better Theft System

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  • AzuhiAzuhi Posts: 55Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Khalaz and Cesarina pretty much summed up my opinion. I've been stolen from several times, by Trance, Jarrel, Profit, Pteron and some others as well, but I never thought of rage-quitting the game because of it simply because I knew it was 100% my fault. Actually, it made my gaming experience more pleasant with the interactions we had after. It's true that I lost some important journals, but it also made me pay more attention in the future.
    Those of you who still remember Trance or Arelas will probably vote for the old theft system as well, those guys made us laugh irl for like half an hour after each attempt.

    I believe we can all agree that the implementing of pickpocketing only managed to take away a very important aspect of the game and with that, the drive of many of us to become Serpents.
    CesarinaNaisarSylvance
  • VansittartVansittart Posts: 232Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kaitali said:
    Cesarina said:
    I understand there were big losses, but honestly if there was THAT MUCH stolen and you were obviously d/ced just file an issue goddammit, even if the thief is a total twat, one lil admin message and it's all patched up. But alas, that would take up admin time, so that won't do, either. Need to stop thinking about this before I have a panic attack because I'm getting close, there's my thoughts, sorry for long incoherent post.
    /emo

    Necro'd, but hey, I'm still invested in this topic so I'll add some more thoughts. First off, I have really not heard of this happening and have, in contrast, heard admin responses of "Oh well, we have no way to prove you weren't just AFK for hours and hours while people took all your worldly possessions." This is a big part of the issue with old theft, nothing could be done for someone that really loses everything, if the thief is unwilling to cooperate. While I am a thief, I also recognize for the VAST majority of players, there is almost never "enjoyable" theft, and so I do not act just in accordance with what I find fun or thrilling.

    I personally feel a lot of "thieves remorse" for the thefts I do and that keeps me in check and prevents me from going overboard and taking advantage of every opportunity I see to rob people, which let's face it, is pretty much constantly happening. Consequences for the thieves that cannot control themselves at all and are becoming extremely detrimental to the game because they're making people want to leave, is what is needed in my opinion, and maybe that needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

    I would still like to see a few more things open to be pickpocketed, especially journals. If your journal is really that valuable to you, you can contact the thief and try to negotiate a return, or put 50 credits into making it returning, or just put it in a container that's difficult for us to get to. There are several options available to victims to make things more difficult for us.

    One other thing I'd also like to say is that there's a lot of this "thieves just want to grief and will laugh in your face if you contact them to negotiate a return." This is simply untrue most of the time. While it may be the case for some very griefy thieves, I think for the most part, we'd much rather have your gold than your precious (and utterly useless to us), journals or jewellery.

    But you see, these arguments are terrible.  You can't rely on "thieves remorse", because not all thieves are as lovely as you.  We had some awesome thieves, it's true, but let's be honest, they were outnumbered by the asshats.

    Arguing for theft to be extended to journals especially is just awful.  That is the weakest possible case.  Not everyone will sell journals back at an appropriate price.  In fact, the more precious the journal, the higher price likely to be demanded.  Most thieves of any prolificity (if that's a word) had hundreds of the things.  This is a bad thing.  It's a power imbalance, that should be addressed.  The single unflexible rule of Achaea is that relying on player restraint is total folly.  Any mechanic that can be abused, will be abused.  You need a system in place to stop that abuse.

    @Blujixapug You're encouraging me to write up a full proposal you know.  I hope you know that.

    NaisarDelphinus
  • CesarinaCesarina Posts: 125Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Vansittart said:....stuff stuff...  Any mechanic that can be abused, will be abused.  You need a system in place to stop that abuse.
    we do its called the issue button, no one ever hesitated to slam it in the past.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • VansittartVansittart Posts: 232Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    (Please stop talking).

    Issues do not address any of the issues I raise in my post.  You could never recover items from them, or gold.  You could almost never prove a DC sufficiently to get your items back.  A thief could steal millions of gold, or a journal that represented hundreds of hours of personal work and never return it.  I think those do represent an abuse that needed to be corrected.  And even if I didn't, that's the admins' settled view, so any revision to the system has to reflect that view.  You aren't helping.

    SylvanceShirszaeLinianNaisar
  • CesarinaCesarina Posts: 125Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm more impressed by the fact that you don't realize what I am doing than the fact you keep arguing in spite of it.

    Yes, I 100% fully back the revival of old theft. What people fail to realize is that while there are constructive arguments for (and against) it, most people are more content to whine and scream OMG PROBLEMS; OMG SOLUTIONS instead of anything of merit. I have given valid solutions on extra limits placed on newbie/dormant theft which admittedly is a big issue, however I can keep parroting "omg simple obvious" just like the people against it intend to do the same. More arguments for/against that are logical and valid everyone, top shelf.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
    Linian
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I've come to the conclusion that it is literally impossible to constructively discuss this topic on the forums. How the hell are we back at rageposts just one page after someone passed this thread a phoenix down?

    Counting down to the fulfilment of Godwin's Law.

    All that said, this is great theatre, so, meh.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    AradorShirszaeKaitali
  • HiromaHiroma Posts: 3Member
    Vansittart, I have to say, your arguments are easily prevented by a person taking appropriate precautions. I, as a character, often have in my control over a million to several million gold, and I've -never- been stupid enough to carry the full amount. That's what banks are for. Similarly, one can make use of shimmering orbs, fist sigils, and triggers to make it more difficult to be robbed. Finally, a bit of advice I received a long time ago, "If you don't want to lose it, then put it away."

    Oh? I have a journal I don't want stolen? I put it in a desk/chest/bookshelf/bookcase/etc in my house. Personal housing and chests -do- have a function, after all. I fully support bringing back old theft, personally. As it stands, all Achaea has become is a Text version of WoW. Log in. Gank a few people. Raid (city). Defend from (city). Complain about shit. QQ. Targossas, Mhaldor, Ashtan, and Eleusis are all doing this. Hashan and Cyrene are being dragged in as well. By bringing back theft, it at least encourages a non-combative atmosphere, instead encouraging a more diverse environment in which people can commit more crimes than just murder.

    Mind you, I have a character who was around before pickpocketing. He's still around. I didn't rage quit. I've been robbed blind before. I learned how to use anti-theft, and then I got stolen from less. Then I learned some preventative measures. And then I pretty much never got robbed. I get pickpocketed more now than I got stolen from previously. And that's pretty sad, considering!

    I would recommend a mixture of both Pickpocketing and Old Theft. Limit Pickpocketing so that it only works on denizens, not players. Then bring back Old Theft. We all know they log shit, INCLUDING TELLS. It's obvious if you were just afk, or if you didn't react fast enough and got power-robbed. Secondly, I would recommend a few restrictions on Old Theft. For example, making Shimmering Orbs immune to any ORDER abilities (Hypnosis/Minuet/Telepathy). Restrict various anti-theft items from being affected by potential theft abilities. With that in place, a person who has taken appropriate precautions is rather more difficult to rob, for obvious reasons. As for gold, USE A DAMN BANK. People act like theft was some horrible thing, but it's a natural part of life. There are thieves. And not EVERY thief should have to be a Serpent. It should remain illegal IC, but you shouldn't be able to be issued for every non-serpent theft, as well. I would also recommend a limit on the amount of Gold (or any item in general) that can be stolen in one go, and give that person some sort of Theft Grace after each theft. That way, you can't simply rob someone totally blind.

    Obviously, the things I've suggested wouldn't make it perfect for everyone, but it would definitely be better for most. I don't even play a serpent, but I would rather see Old Theft come back, than persist in this boring day-to-day shit that my favorite game has become.
    Kaitali
  • HiromaHiroma Posts: 3Member
    Also, sorry for the wall of text. :/
  • VansittartVansittart Posts: 232Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Hiroma, I don't disagree with you.  I think Old Theft was totally defensible, but you have to recognise that that argument was had, and was lost.  (Well, not actually had in the sense that it was discussed, but I assume some thought process went into the theft system being junked).

    The only plausible change now is one that addresses the admin's concerns on the old system, while ditching the new horrible, boring, vanilla mechanic we have now.

  • NaisarNaisar Posts: 255Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Vansittart You seem to have a good grasp on the situation and a real desire for discussion, but people are right- this is just too near and dear to some hearts to have an intelligent conversation about it on the forums.  Take a look at the last couple pages- people are spewing the same arguments that have already been made & debunked.  Good effort, but I think your time is probably best spent elsewhere.
    SylvanceNimLinianCesarina
  • KorbenKorben Posts: 345Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

    Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

    What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.
    MelodieSylvanceNimDaeir
  • CesarinaCesarina Posts: 125Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Korben said:
    There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

    Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

    What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.
    While I'm not arguing or disagreeing with your post, that's another one of those unfortunate "the few ruin it for the many." I had fun talking to people with good antitheft that I didn't get past. Lots of interesting conversations or actions you can strike up after a failed (or successful) theft. I wish you had to take a test and like apply to be able to steal. >.<
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
    Sylvance
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Cesarina said:
    Korben said:
    There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

    Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

    What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.
    While I'm not arguing or disagreeing with your post, that's another one of those unfortunate "the few ruin it for the many." I had fun talking to people with good antitheft that I didn't get past. Lots of interesting conversations or actions you can strike up after a failed (or successful) theft. I wish you had to take a test and like apply to be able to steal. >.<
    There is a test. It's called 'Naga Novice Requirements'. If you're a thief that hasn't passed it yet... you'll be hearing from us shortly.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,060Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Being Naga to be a thief?

    What?
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    VayneHataruSylvance
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2013

    Jarrod said:
    Being Naga to be a thief?

    What?
    nvm.
    image
    SherazadSylvance
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthPosts: 956Member @ - Epic Achaean
    We love you too, Vayne. 
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


    Sylvance
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Vayne said:

    Jarrod said:
    Being Naga to be a thief?

    What?
    nvm.
    So wanna know what he wrote :D If you've got screenies, I WANT.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 3,064Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sylvance said:
    Vayne said:

    Jarrod said:
    Being Naga to be a thief?

    What?
    nvm.
    So wanna know what he wrote :D If you've got screenies, I WANT.
    I want to know too, though I'm pretty sure I can guess the gist of it xD

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    VayneSylvanceSherazad
  • NakariNakari Posts: 596Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Old theft was awesome as a roleplay mechanic, but totally sucked when reduced to a method of generating profit, as it was by a number of people.



    Clearly this is all just more proof of capitalism not letting us have nice things.

    Blujixapug
  • KorbenKorben Posts: 345Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Korben said:
    On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?
    http://www.achaea.com/forum/theft-5?page=2#comment-1352069
    NimKorben
  • CesarinaCesarina Posts: 125Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Korben said:
    On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?
    I'm not trying to spark an argument, but if you look down more in that thread and on the next few pages, Profit DOES make some decent points. Oh... Did I just say Profit was making decent or reasonable points... Oh dear. But still, it's true.
    -
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "If I overdose on anything, though, it'll be a lack of anything."
    (Whiners Anonymous): Alcaro says, "Isn't Morimbuul that Arab that was banished to beneath Mhaldor or something."
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,060Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That thread, and this thread, are pretty much abominations.

    If any decent discussion is going to come about regarding theft, it should probably be in a new thread. A lot of people should either not comment at all, or learn how to discuss the issue rationally while addressing the points brought up.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Blujixapug
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    That thread, and this thread, are pretty much abominations.

    If any decent discussion is going to come about regarding theft, it should probably not be in a forum thread. A lot of people should either not comment at all, or learn how to discuss the issue rationally while addressing the points brought up.
    ftfy
    JarrodSylvance
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,060Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Probably! Would work best somewhere like Leaders I would think.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,506Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    :( You elitist!
    Sylvance
This discussion has been closed.