Building a Better Theft System

Cesarina

Vansittart said:....stuff stuff...  Any mechanic that can be abused, will be abused.  You need a system in place to stop that abuse.

we do its called the issue button, no one ever hesitated to slam it in the past.

Vansittart

(Please stop talking).

Issues do not address any of the issues I raise in my post.  You could never recover items from them, or gold.  You could almost never prove a DC sufficiently to get your items back.  A thief could steal millions of gold, or a journal that represented hundreds of hours of personal work and never return it.  I think those do represent an abuse that needed to be corrected.  And even if I didn't, that's the admins' settled view, so any revision to the system has to reflect that view.  You aren't helping.

Cesarina

I'm more impressed by the fact that you don't realize what I am doing than the fact you keep arguing in spite of it.

Yes, I 100% fully back the revival of old theft. What people fail to realize is that while there are constructive arguments for (and against) it, most people are more content to whine and scream OMG PROBLEMS; OMG SOLUTIONS instead of anything of merit. I have given valid solutions on extra limits placed on newbie/dormant theft which admittedly is a big issue, however I can keep parroting "omg simple obvious" just like the people against it intend to do the same. More arguments for/against that are logical and valid everyone, top shelf.

Sylvance

I've come to the conclusion that it is literally impossible to constructively discuss this topic on the forums. How the hell are we back at rageposts just one page after someone passed this thread a phoenix down?

Counting down to the fulfilment of Godwin's Law.

All that said, this is great theatre, so, meh.

Hiroma

Vansittart, I have to say, your arguments are easily prevented by a person taking appropriate precautions. I, as a character, often have in my control over a million to several million gold, and I've -never- been stupid enough to carry the full amount. That's what banks are for. Similarly, one can make use of shimmering orbs, fist sigils, and triggers to make it more difficult to be robbed. Finally, a bit of advice I received a long time ago, "If you don't want to lose it, then put it away."

Oh? I have a journal I don't want stolen? I put it in a desk/chest/bookshelf/bookcase/etc in my house. Personal housing and chests -do- have a function, after all. I fully support bringing back old theft, personally. As it stands, all Achaea has become is a Text version of WoW. Log in. Gank a few people. Raid (city). Defend from (city). Complain about shit. QQ. Targossas, Mhaldor, Ashtan, and Eleusis are all doing this. Hashan and Cyrene are being dragged in as well. By bringing back theft, it at least encourages a non-combative atmosphere, instead encouraging a more diverse environment in which people can commit more crimes than just murder.

Mind you, I have a character who was around before pickpocketing. He's still around. I didn't rage quit. I've been robbed blind before. I learned how to use anti-theft, and then I got stolen from less. Then I learned some preventative measures. And then I pretty much never got robbed. I get pickpocketed more now than I got stolen from previously. And that's pretty sad, considering!

I would recommend a mixture of both Pickpocketing and Old Theft. Limit Pickpocketing so that it only works on denizens, not players. Then bring back Old Theft. We all know they log shit, INCLUDING TELLS. It's obvious if you were just afk, or if you didn't react fast enough and got power-robbed. Secondly, I would recommend a few restrictions on Old Theft. For example, making Shimmering Orbs immune to any ORDER abilities (Hypnosis/Minuet/Telepathy). Restrict various anti-theft items from being affected by potential theft abilities. With that in place, a person who has taken appropriate precautions is rather more difficult to rob, for obvious reasons. As for gold, USE A DAMN BANK. People act like theft was some horrible thing, but it's a natural part of life. There are thieves. And not EVERY thief should have to be a Serpent. It should remain illegal IC, but you shouldn't be able to be issued for every non-serpent theft, as well. I would also recommend a limit on the amount of Gold (or any item in general) that can be stolen in one go, and give that person some sort of Theft Grace after each theft. That way, you can't simply rob someone totally blind.

Obviously, the things I've suggested wouldn't make it perfect for everyone, but it would definitely be better for most. I don't even play a serpent, but I would rather see Old Theft come back, than persist in this boring day-to-day shit that my favorite game has become.

Hiroma

Also, sorry for the wall of text.

Vansittart

@Hiroma, I don't disagree with you.  I think Old Theft was totally defensible, but you have to recognise that that argument was had, and was lost.  (Well, not actually had in the sense that it was discussed, but I assume some thought process went into the theft system being junked).

The only plausible change now is one that addresses the admin's concerns on the old system, while ditching the new horrible, boring, vanilla mechanic we have now.

Nim

The issue is that people were leaving the game or playing less as a direct result of being robbed from. It was studied by the admins, and they found a correlation or causation or whatever (they didn't write a peer reviewed article on the issue, or at least they didn't let me read it, so that's about all I know!)

I offer a fair compromise. Old theft in exchange for permadeath on thieves. If you steal from someone (or even attempt to!), then for the next reasonably long period of gameplay (a couple of days, maybe, inversely related to the character's level, thus punishing people who target lowbies? maybe extended if you hide, eg in a house, via a veil, etc. or maybe they just don't protect you, like, your house door can literally be kicked open), if you are killed, you do not come back. You can still log into the character, but you have to play in Lord Thoth's realms, and you can never leave short of some divine miracle.

This way, the system assumes thieves are griefing jerks so the admins don't have to bother punishing the ones that actually are, but if you really were a classy thief, maybe a God or Goddess will make you a deal and let you out or something. You never know! it could also lead to prison afterlife roleplay, and aren't more roleplaying opportunities what we actually want out of this thing?

oh, and since you die for realz, all your stuff drops when and where you die. Maybe people's stolen goods will be mailed back to them afterward too, by the Achaean rangers. Because they're always watching.

ETA: I just realized it's very difficult to see satire for what it is on the internets, so as a disclaimer, the above is satirical. My actual point can be described as followed: theft (that can steal rob a character of everything they have) can very easily be very disproportionately balanced compared to the other consequences available, regardless of how easy or not it is to stop, and would better suit a slightly more hardoore game with features like permadeath than a game where death is cheap, for a multitude of reasons!

Silas

This thread is stupid. Stop wasting your time on it, @Vansittart, and come back to play with me in Targossas. The Holy Silasian Empire needs you.

Naisar

@Vansittart You seem to have a good grasp on the situation and a real desire for discussion, but people are right- this is just too near and dear to some hearts to have an intelligent conversation about it on the forums.  Take a look at the last couple pages- people are spewing the same arguments that have already been made & debunked.  Good effort, but I think your time is probably best spent elsewhere.

Korben

There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.

Cesarina

Korben said:

There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.

While I'm not arguing or disagreeing with your post, that's another one of those unfortunate "the few ruin it for the many." I had fun talking to people with good antitheft that I didn't get past. Lots of interesting conversations or actions you can strike up after a failed (or successful) theft. I wish you had to take a test and like apply to be able to steal. >.<

Sylvance

Cesarina said:

Korben said:

There's one point most of you are neglecting: successful antitheft is boring for the victim. My experience was that the thief would hit me, my antitheft would work, they'd say something like 'nice reflexes' and I wouldn't see them again.

Let's face it, thieves are going to target people with bad antitheft, not those with good protection. So what are the victim's options ? Have bad antitheft and get stolen from frequently, or have good antitheft and not interact with thieves at all.

What I'm saying, basically, is that the 'It's the victim's fault for having bad antitheft' and 'Theft is a fun interaction' arguments are contradictory. The pro-theft crowd may support one or the other but not both.

While I'm not arguing or disagreeing with your post, that's another one of those unfortunate "the few ruin it for the many." I had fun talking to people with good antitheft that I didn't get past. Lots of interesting conversations or actions you can strike up after a failed (or successful) theft. I wish you had to take a test and like apply to be able to steal. >.<

There is a test. It's called 'Naga Novice Requirements'. If you're a thief that hasn't passed it yet... you'll be hearing from us shortly.

Jarrod

Being Naga to be a thief?

What?

Vayne

Jarrod said:

Being Naga to be a thief?

What?

nvm.

Sherazad

We love you too, Vayne. 

Sylvance

Vayne said:

Jarrod said:

Being Naga to be a thief?

What?

nvm.

So wanna know what he wrote If you've got screenies, I WANT.

Shirszae

Sylvance said:

Vayne said:

Jarrod said:

Being Naga to be a thief?

What?

nvm.

So wanna know what he wrote If you've got screenies, I WANT.

I want to know too, though I'm pretty sure I can guess the gist of it xD

Nakari

Old theft was awesome as a roleplay mechanic, but totally sucked when reduced to a method of generating profit, as it was by a number of people.

Clearly this is all just more proof of capitalism not letting us have nice things.

Korben

On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?

Eld

Korben said:

On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?

http://www.achaea.com/forum/theft-5?page=2#comment-1352069

Cesarina

Korben said:

On another note, is there a transcript of this talk in which Tecton mentioned a link between theft and player retention ? If so, can someone point me there ?

I'm not trying to spark an argument, but if you look down more in that thread and on the next few pages, Profit DOES make some decent points. Oh... Did I just say Profit was making decent or reasonable points... Oh dear. But still, it's true.

Jarrod

That thread, and this thread, are pretty much abominations.

If any decent discussion is going to come about regarding theft, it should probably be in a new thread. A lot of people should either not comment at all, or learn how to discuss the issue rationally while addressing the points brought up.

Eld

Jarrod said:

That thread, and this thread, are pretty much abominations.

If any decent discussion is going to come about regarding theft, it should probably not be in a forum thread. A lot of people should either not comment at all, or learn how to discuss the issue rationally while addressing the points brought up.

ftfy

Jarrod

Probably! Would work best somewhere like Leaders I would think.

Iocun

You elitist!

Korben

Here's an idea: CONFIG THEFT OLD|NEW (NEW by default). Cooldown time of 48h so people can't switch between them all the time, and a long delay before it takes effect so they can't use it to escape a theft in progress.

NEW is what everyone has now. OLD lets you be targeted by old theft and flags you (I'm thinking an honors line such as 'He/She upholds the old traditions of Achaea.')

People who want the rush/real-world-feeling/whatever of old theft can have it, everyone's happy.

Iocun

Better go all-out and add a CONFIG ACHAEA OLD|NEW.

Setting Achaea to old reverses the theft changes, removes autoclass, brings back Clementius, adds random typos in room descriptions, renames bound credits to neocredits, and makes paralysis uncurable.

Jarrod

Th*t s*und* li*e a g*re*t i*e*!

Tecton

I think this topic has run it's course. We're still looking at changing some things up in regards to theft, so stay tuned!