Building a Better Theft System

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  • edited April 2013
    Vayne said:
    Silvarien said:
    In Japan, a woman destroyed her husband's Maple Story account after their divorce. The account was worth 3000 dollars. She was convicted and sent to prison. In Europe, some hacker hit a bunch of Habbo Hotel accounts. Interpol found him, he went to prison too. At this point, the theft of virtual property is not treated any differently than theft of, say, a car if the amount jacked is big enough. For a recent example in Achaea, hit AUCTIONS and look at Ruth's bid for the Delosian shop. 20 mil at 6500 gold per credit is roughly 3000 cr, but since gold at that time was more expensive due to its necessity in the auctions it was actually more than that. She needed to take that gold to one of several places to make her bid. If her internet got disconnected for like an hour at the worst time on her way to Stygian Crossroads to make the bid, she could theoretically been "pickpocketed" for the entire 20 mil if she lost her connection at the right time. I am sure she would have felt as wonderful as the people I described above, and the thief would have felt twice as wonderful with 20 mil in his pockets which he "lawfully" obtained. The laws of multiple countries say this is wrong to do, but you guys are saying it's right to do and laughing in my face for daring to say otherwise -- because there is a game mechanic allowing it? I don't know if it's legal, I do know it's not right even if it is legal.
    Yes? No one was hacked, it was within the parameters of the games designed mechanics to make it possible. Also, I do not think anyone is laughing in your face.
    The problem I am hinting at is, if some catastrophically large amount is stolen and the victim was pissed enough, IRE might get hit with a nasty lawsuit which will examine whether this mechanic absolves people within this game from laws other virtual property is governed by. Theft of 3000 credits by hacking as opposed to theft of 3000 credits by "pickpocketing" is a distinction YOU might make, I really doubt an aggressive lawyer working a jury off the street will make such distinctions. IRE is a small company, not like Nexon or Blizzard. I think a lot of us disagree about a lot of things, but nobody here wants to see IRE get sued.
  • edited April 2013
    @Silvarien You've got to be trolling at this point.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • edited April 2013
    Sylvance said:
    @Silvarien You've got to be trolling at this point.
    Actually, considering I asked 4 times for you to stop talking to me for any reason, and you still constantly mark my posts and answer them, knowing I don't want you to, I'd say you are more likely to be trolling than I.

    Woman bought a cup of coffee at McDonalds, put it at her crotch, it spilled and burned her, she sued Mickey D's and won 3 million dollars.

    Another woman I am aware of made her living by suing her neighbors for things such "emotional distress" stemming from them playing basketball at 3 PM.

    In the legal justice system we live in, miracles of this sort are possible.
  • edited April 2013
    Silvarien said:
    Sylvance said:
    @Silvarien You've got to be trolling at this point.
    Actually, considering I asked 4 times for you to stop talking to me for any reason, and you still constantly mark my posts and answer them, knowing I don't want you to, I'd say you are more likely to be trolling than I.

    Woman bought a cup of coffee at McDonalds, put it at her crotch, it spilled and burned her, she sued Mickey D's and won 3 million dollars.

    Another woman I am aware of made her living by suing her neighbors for things such "emotional distress" stemming from them playing basketball at 3 PM.

    In the legal justice system we live in, miracles of this sort are possible.
    If I disagree with you, I'ma Disagree with you. If you say something that makes me say WTF irl, then I'ma WTF the post. Try to separate your emotions from the thread just for once? These are public forums. If you don't want your opinion to be commented on then don't express it.

    Back to the debate - IRE has made it abundantly clear exactly what might be stolen from a player and what can't be, and that the risk of theft exists. There's no lawsuit coming out of this whatsoever.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • edited April 2013
    I feel bad for thieves and victims here. The old system was very bad since you could get disconnected from achaea and due to the internet being down, have EVERYTHING stolen. I've had this happen a few times.. usually I can get a few things back, but still buying your own stuff back when it really wasn't a lack of precaution on your end is horrible. However currently player theft is a bit lacking, I agree it took the sport out of it but, you can rob denizens now which make up for some of it with people who made a living stealing. I'd find it interesting if serpents could steal house items from house vendors should they manage to snake their way into the house hall and later fence that at a better price. I also like the idea I heard about being able to retrieve stolen items, though it's pretty much not happening as most of the thieves now are either great pkers (not so bad unless you're newbie) or run like the wind making it next to impossible to catch them unless you feel like attempting to raid their city to get at them.

    One serious issue I have with the current system of pickpocketing is that you don't see who's stealing your junk and the thief evades out, leaving who ever is unfortunate enough to be in the room with you the suspect. While it's humorous, it creates the issue of people who honestly didn't steal your stuff being attacked for stealing your stuff. Example: let's say I'm standing at NoT and forgot selfishness.. Vayne evades in, steals some gold, and evades out. I search and Azzae is revealed yet he can't pickpocket and I have no way of knowing this, so I attack Azzae. It also plays into the marks being underused as you don't really know who the hell stole it. So, who do you hire on should you take that route? I realize vigilance takes care of this but, it's a mana drain and who wants to walk around with that up, also I think most people who would hire have their skills in class things rather than vision.
  • edited April 2013
    Jarrel said:
    Silvarien has made this into the most ridiculous discussion ever. Please dont feed the troll anymore.
    Right everyone, Silvarien has made this into the most ridiculous discussion ever. Please don't feed the troll anymore.

    So, let's not feed the troll, let's all get back to the "productive activity" of robbing people and laughing in their faces! Right, @Jarrel ? Or is popular sentiment of you deeply misguided and you only do it to feed your starving children or because your daddy beat you as a child? There's obviously complex socioeconomic reasons behind you taking that guy's journals and non-decay stuff and killing him for added fun. And that time you snapped me near the cave, you were just lonely and cast out by society and you needed someone -- anyone -- to have a cup of tea with and tell all your problems to.

    I guess all those real life dollars people spent non-decaying their stuff that ended up in your pack against their will, that's all just "play money" that actually didn't cost them anything, but which you "worked" so hard to get. You're such a hero to have pulled off all your heists. So look, I hang around people that you do shit to, and we just plain don't like you very much. With the sort of "RP" you treat us to, most of us prefer you weren't around. Sorry you're morally outraged about it. And welcome to the world of taking shit that doesn't belong to you.

  • VayneVayne Rhode Island
    Well, it made it a page...
    image
  • You are not doing your cause any favors buddy.  Take a breather.

    You know what would be an interesting avenue of discussion?  Trying to figure out ways for the target of a theft to tangibly benefit from the interaction.  The fundamental issue has always been that thieves have nothing to lose and everything to gain, while the opposite is true for their victims.  Much of our effort has been spent trying to figure out ways to fix the interaction after it's already taken place.  Why don't we focus on introducing some counterplay into the mechanic itself?  I have no idea what this would look like, but making it more of a contest instead of a negligence check would allow us to reward those who play it well- including the theft target.  Might be a bit of a pipe dream, but someday I'd like to live in a world where people look forward to theft attempts as just as much of an opportunity as the thief.  It'd remove a lot of the viscous bubbling butthurt that surrounds the topic, anyway.
  • edited April 2013
    @Naisar : I know I am being way more heated about this than I probably should be, but I am from a community which has 0 thieves, and is basically fleeced by thieves nearly every in-game month. From what I've seen of thieves and theft, as they are, there is no way for the victim to benefit and in any way look forward to a theft interaction. My friends have lost a lot, and I've never seen any sort of satisfaction or enjoyment on their part about it. Certainly, I've yet to meet a theft victim that considered the experience good RP. Recently, Jarrod cleaned out two major shopkeepers in my city. The only "RP" those shopkeepers did was buying a TON of stuff to restore their supply. They lost a fortune and they must feel horrible. Jarrod is probably very proud of himself. Those shopkeepers quite certainly are wishing he was not around.

    I myself am nearly immune to theft because literally everything I have that I value is resetting and I rarely carry more than like a thousand gold in my pack. Thieving from me is not very different than giving me 2 counts of free cause. Jordan once appraised my inventory with me calmly watching, and asked me about an item I had. I told her what it was, and did not leave the room. It's not myself I am mad about.

    They target my friends, insult them, sell their stuff back to them, and half the time they try to rob them again and if they succeed try to sell the crap to them again. Some of them start playing sleazy rules-lawyer, telling my friends how we don't have cause, or talking trash to them because my friends become too OOC in their panic of trying to get the items back. What the hell do you expect us to say about these people? If you were mugged in an alley on the way to your car and lost your cell phone and wallet containing 200 bucks you'd be "butthurt" too. And this is not different enough from that for any of us theft victims to care very much about distinctions. Either way, it's real money.

    It's legal by game mechanics. But it's not enjoyable by game mechanics. Tecton provided statistics of lots of people quitting after being robbed. You guys are so immersed in these calculations of what would make theft "better" without understanding that the basic premise of Achaean theft is really unpleasant and destructive for the community in this game that gets victimized. The human factor is that theft is the most unpleasant activity to be subjected to in this game. In theory it adds to game realism, but in practice it is sufficiently similar to real crime that the victim feels subjected to real crime, and seeing game mechanics support it, he quits Achaea, goes somewhere else, and we've lost another player for slighted Jarrel over there to get his Shield of Absorption. If thieves did real theft RP and gave back what they stole consistently and without making the theft victim lose a lot, I think a lot of people would regard theft differently. Wishing for that is the real pipe-dream here. For theft to become something everybody enjoys, the stolen goods need to go back to their real owner, either for nothing at all or for very little. That is NOT going to happen.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited April 2013
    The only part of the proposed that I really agree with is increasing the range of items that are considered 'valuable'. Making a thief free pk until all items have been returned or are no longer 'hot', on top of extra xp loss when dying while in possession of stolen items, seems like it would do more to strangle what little potential is left for theft currently.

    In regards to fencing, there are a few underground organizations who do this type of stuff, in regards to a black market exchange. Anyone can see the items available for sale, but not the source of the item.

    Also, @Silvarien, it seems as though you were recently, or in the past, a victim of theft and lost something substantial. Either way, this thread is about how to make Theft better and more balanced, not for you to try to make it worse or use it as your platform to voice discontent at having been robbed.

    Will IRE get sued if someone who bought $3,000 worth of credits, converted them into gold, and either got them stolen from an actual skill in the game that allows them to be Pickpocketed, or killed and the gold was on hand? I very highly doubt it. How is IRE in any way responsible for that?

    That being said, would be good to see this get back on topic.


  • Dear @Silvarien,

      No one likes to lose.  The first thing you should do is learn to lose like a winner.  The idea of thief is illegal.  It's not lawful to steal.  That's what makes it exciting.  Maybe we need Achaean prisons and police.  You were caught, stealing, and now you pay the penalty.

      Brand them with a big T on their forehead...cut off a few fingers.  If the thief has nothing to lose in the exchange then, it's boring and dull.  Personally robbing little ones is pathetic first off.  And second the Divine are going to frown on that behavior because...it stops them from coming back to Achaea.

      They are working their hardest to get new fresh players in Achaea.  If we go and rob them blind their first two steps, boom...see your thieving days gone like the wind.  Role-Playing is one thing, but I can tell you that if done TO well...someone is going to step in and say enough.

      Stealing is ILLEGAL.  Even though you can steal it, it's still unlawful.  So maybe we need some consequences if caught.  Lose a hand...see people steal then.  I bet you would think twice before reaching out and messing with a youngster's belongings.  Knowing you COULD lose a hand for good.

      You want short sleeves or long sleeves?  Thief's choice.  Lose a hand or lose the arm.  

    I personally have been robbed in Achaea, and did a bit myself.  It doesn't feel all that good on either side.  Taking something from someone is wrong and we all know it.  The guilt is there even if it is hiding behind a wall of convincing smiles.  I would feel really bad taking your manuscript @Vayne, and after you explained to me that you had no other copies...I would feel worse.

     If that thief was caught with your property...of with the right hand!  I personally don't steal things as it's not as fun as PvP.  But that's my opinion.

      Make it illegal and if caught punishable by something EQUALLY important to a thief.

    Humiliation works wonders.

    Sincerely,


    Cobra 
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    @Cobra Wouldn't that depend on what city-state your character lives in, however? After all, Achaea is not one central government. Every city has its laws, and as far as I am aware, no city really prohibits its serpents to thieve from the adversary. So what you say would only apply if the serpent was sort of caught by an enemy guard or something?

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    I think the biggest think being lost track of in regards to this, with talks of being arrested, sued, or having one's hand cut off, is that this is Achaea; it's far from the real world. Are there consequences to theft? Yes, and they can lead up to death and being enemied to cities and other organizations.


  • Dear @Shirszae,

       I understand that, yes I would suppose, hunting thieves would be a pass time for many then.  Dragging their dead bodies to your respective cities and looping off their right hand.  PERMANENTLY.

      If someone stole from me, my house would hunt them down, for the rest of their lives.  Forever an enemy, forever hunted.  If someone stole from one of my house members, same deal.

      However, being hunted is common place.  I haven't done anything to anyone for nearly 350 IG years and I still get jumped for NO reason.  Not a big deal to me...Death is death, time spend gaining XP, is called PLAYING the GAME.

      So, being hunted is rather, normal.  I suggest something harsher.  Something that makes the act of thievery...a choice.  Think about the consequences of it.  If I get caught stealing 2k I might lose my hand?  No more...Wielding a Dirk and Whip at the same time...No more...FIRING THAT darkbow...

      If you say, no thieves, then we lose a tiny element of RP that we could really have some fun with.  If we could actually take care of this illegal stealing business in RP...Personally, I would CHOP both hands off...

      It's touchy subject, stealing gold...not to bad, it's replaceable...Stealing my book I am writing...now you just made me very angry and if I had the chance I would PERMANENTLY hurt you.  I think with a "consequence" being a thief would be more like...nah thanks I like my hands.

      Personally I see no reason NOT to steal from everyone at the moment, wheres the punishment?  Death...that is nothing.  I die all the time.  Being a target for killing.  Nothing.  I am that already...what would be worth more to a thief than ANYTHING...

      You get caught, you lose a hand.  You get caught again...you lose the other...Now you are no longer a thief.  Punishable by humiliation.


    Just my couple thoughts on the matter,


    Cobra 
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    I think you really need to separate the real world from a game.

    Nobody forces you to play and nobody forces you to spend your real cash.

    IRE frowns pretty damn heavily on credit scamming and things along those lines. What you willing choose to do with your credits once you've bought them is entirely up to you. Maybe put your gold in a bank? Every city has those.

    Cyrene also has serpents. Serpents are capable of stealing. Perhaps they just choose not to, or it's frowned upon by city laws.

    I know that I feel pretty violated when wanting to starve myself to death in a snowy field and some do-gooder comes along and forces manna down my throat. That totally stripped me of potential roleplay and wasted the time I spent getting that hungry in the first place.

    Do I sound ridiculous yet?

    Just like theft is a mechanic in the game, mechanics are in place to make it preventable too.

    Yes it sucks when bad things happen. Some of us suck it up and move on, some of us make entertaining rant posts ( where IS Tagg? His rants are sheer awesome ), and some of us have a think about life, and then politely tell someone congratulations on succeeding and could you please have a break from being targetted?

    You'd be surprised how reasonable people on the other side of the keyboard can be when you're not throwing giant hissy fits and threatening to sue them in real life over a game.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • Dear @Jarrod,

      Nice work my friend.  You are absolutely correct.  Shop owners need to protect their stock, and if they don't.  Well...Someone is going to notice and take advantage of that.  Surely your no stranger to being a target of death in every city.  However, maybe it's time shop owners PAY for protection.  Really you robbed everything to get you hands on 50k.  You clearly HAVE a heart and are willing to spare others heartache.

      However, it's still fun to take what is not yours.  It gets the heart pumping and the adrenaline flowing.  I mean really what are thieves stealing that is non replaceable?  Your journal?  Please.  That's your fault for leaving only one copy in a place where it could be taken.

      Shop items, come on, there is only every precaution you COULD take...but some of you won't and then it's a big surprise when you lose it all. Thankfully the Shadowsnakes are understandable and reasonable.  Thank you @Jarrod, for leading the way!


    Sincerely,


    Cobra
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited April 2013
    @Cobra, keep in mind this is a Game. I don't see how overly punishing a thief for stealing, which is their trade, helps the situation. Losing their hands permanently? That's a bit silly. Hunting them for the rest of their IG life, without relent? That's equally silly.

    My character is a pirate, has been for a few RL years. In essence, yes, I steal from people, and I was once a thief by trade as well. This is how I look at it, much like @Jarrod has already mentioned: If you value something, then take the steps necessary to ensure its safekeeping.

    If you sit around in public not moving for extended periods of time, someone is going to notice. If, as a result of that you lose all of your gold because you weren't paying attention, assume responsibility for your carelessness, and use it as a lesson to not see it repeated. It's not different than dying and having a lot of gold on hand, and someone else picking it up. It's not even considered stealing when that happens, and the person is under no obligation to return the gold. Should have had in in your pack.

    Also as Jarrod mentioned, shop theft is easy only because people make it easy. I caught Jarrod in my shop the other day easily enough. I didn't bother throwing an eye sigil down or anything because I had just obtained the shop and it was empty, so I was just setting the totem and sigils up. If there's actually stuff in the shop, I always double-check before going into the stockroom. Most people don't bother checking at all.

    Theft is a viable trade available in Achaea, or at least it should be. Obviously no one likes being stolen from, but if a book that was being worked on got stolen, chances are you can buy it back. We used to steal letters and journals from people in Shallam all the time, more than a few of which would have juicy little romantic tid bits that people were eager to buy back, and we were also discrete about it. We didn't sell them their sensitive material back then expose it to everyone.

    I think the reason theft gets such a bad reputation is because people don't like being reminded how unprepared they actually were, how lazy they were being. And just because dying doesn't mean anything to you, doesn't make it so for everyone. A thief, iirc, is Free PK for up to 30 days, and the person they stole from gets cause, which they can use to hire within the first 3 days. If the contract is successful, they get experience.

    The problems are a) people not wanting to admit that a majority of thefts are successful for reasons they could easily be prevented b) eventually a thief will come along that is a jerk.

    Don't be a jerk. Take responsibility for your possessions. Problem solved.


  • I have used every method I've been told to protect a shop from theft - I still had someone break in somehow. Thankfully they were Mhaldorian, and all I lost was my head over it.

    I use eye sigils. Search. I triggered unlocking/entering/leaving, have everything ready to change before I go in, so I'm only there a few seconds. Keep the important sigils in the shop. Somehow someone still managed to get in as I left, without me even seeing. Blackwinded, I supose. This is why I won't rent shops anymore. The payoff can be nice, but it's not worth it if you can take every precaution, and still be thwarted by someone sitting there and spamming 'down' in astral/blackwind, losing a good 300k of stock.


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    I was amused when @Daeir stole off me that one time in Delos. I was in the middle of writing a lengthy message to Phaestus and though I saw him hanging around, I didn't bother moving.

    Totally on me and the first time I'd ever been stolen off. I have some hilarious logs of theft attempts from over the years too.

    Was it Daeir's fault for using his abilities on me? No. I was standing around in a public area, not paying the level of attention I should have been. When he turned up a month or two later while I was forging in New Thera, I was ready for a theft attempt but he tried to assassinate me instead ( love you too, Mhaldor ), but I got away. Hell, I went back as bait about 10 minutes later to see if I could get him killed instead. Didn't quite work out, but the conflict and interaction were quite exciting, and we discussed it afterward.

    I think theft is the only aspect of the game where people actually have something to lose and that makes the fantasy more real. It's great.

    Before I played Achaea, I came from a mud that was open pk. When you died, you lost stats, levels, and dropped all your equipment. If you pissed someone off, you could lose -everything- in five minutes. Event items could be lost forever. In comparison to that, even old theft was okay because there's always measures in place to protect yourself.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • Dear @Kresslack,

      I understand.  Listen I am only suggesting this hard core idea, for hard core thiefs.  You steal something "un-replaceable" and are "CAUGHT" then...there should be some form of punishment, IF you are caught.  If I stole everything from you and then I said, GIVE ME money and you can have it back...That's being caught.  You openly admit guilt.  Something I would never do.

      So.  If you going to steal things like gold and items...big deal, suck it up and learn...I personally don't care, I just think if there was a consequence  thieves wouldn't run back to the victim and exchange their loot for a different type of loot.  I mean come on?  Really, the entire idea here is this. 
     
      Stealing is wrong, even if your pirate and even if I am a serpent.  It doesn't make it lawful and maybe you could regrow your hand back in a year?  I don't know...I didn't make any of this mess.  However...It is MY right to choose how I behave in life, so if I want to steal I should be able too...right?

      This thread is about making this choice for you...You don't get to steal anymore...They are asking to take away your personal right not to obey the law.  I would be up in arms about it.

      But, I wouldn't go back to you and say, you know I just robbed you...would you like your stuff back.  Like I said, might as well leave the stuff and say, you give 50k per 6 months, I'll make sure no one takes "our" stuff.  

      I like the FREE PK idea, as I am getting used to the whole idea of not just being able to kill anyone at anytime for any reason.  Steal away...I am trying to protect your life style by giving an alternate scenario, something that would make the victim feel...avenged.

      One, two, three deaths...really that is nothing.  Losing a hand for a year..only IF your caught red handed.  You guys are the ones raising your hands and shouting "I am a thief, I steal from others...for my trade."  A big T on your forehead would be welcomed...two hands dyed red...same deal.  You are already saying you steal.  What would you care?

      If the items can be acquired with not spending a SINGLE REAL Dollar...steal away, have at it.  Good luck with all the improvements that are stopping you all ready.  If you are going to steal from me, and I PAID for it with real money.  Your basically stealing REAL money from me.  This is an argument you are not going to win.

      If I came to your house, stole your 60 inch flatscreen, and then waltz by the next day asking for 300 bucks and you can have your tv back...what would you REALLY do?  Pay the 300 dollars...NO - you would call the cops and have the thief arrested.  And then call your insurance company and get an 80 inch tv.  Let's be realistic.

      Anyway, I really don't care because I am completely fine with Selfishness in game and having a reflex to turn it on again if by chance someone turns it off for me.  Good luck taking anything from anyone.  Now your shop on the other hand...protect it, ask how, my god I am trying you help your "trade" by offering a device to keep it around.

      I really don't care - I like the idea of thieves.  I wish it was more open to better RP.  Taking away this would mean, you don't have FREE WILL...then this game no longer mimics real life to an extent.  We all might as well get desk jobs in Achaea and sit around and WORK for the cities.

    Anyway, I come from a time when there was none of this political nonsense.  Steal, Kill and have fun...but that's just me.

    I guess to sum up my critical idea, it was for "being caught stealing" things that are in terms NOT of Achaea.  For instance, my blahblahblah artifact that I PAID for.  If you want to steal my darkbow...have at it!  I can get another one with IG gold.  No biggie.  Stealing my Lupine Bow (Which I don't think you can) would require a serious punishment.  

    I vote STEAL EVERYTHING that's not bolted down.  It's not a big deal...the only problem I see is new players not coming back to Achaea because of it.


    Just my thoughts, 


    Cobra 
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited April 2013
    It doesn't make sense to keep using RL references in regards to IG theft. Apples and oranges. Also, offering to sell someone's stuff back to them somewhat goes along the lines of the "Don't be a jerk" universal rule that the PK Rules have been replaced with. Granted, they don't Have to sell it back, but sometimes they do; it's the thief's choice. Naturally, if you're pickpocketing someone, you're most often going to get caught because you generally have to Snap them to get them to get gold out of their pack/drop selfishness.

    You're proposing that someone's character literally lose their hand if they ever get caught in a theft attempt, or even admitting to it after being successful. How exactly does that help Theft as a system? That is the point of this thread, after all. Such a proposal is pretty silly and I don't see how it helps to balance Theft.

    The proposal itself seems very passive-aggressive. "Steal everything you can! But if you get caught, you'll literally lose a hand." Also, new players can't be stolen from, if they're unranked then it is harshly punished and the items are returned afaik. At least with the old theft system, Houses actually Taught anti-theft, and it was required to pass evaluations of your understanding of it for a promotion. Now it's: Keep Selfishness up.

    If you buy credits, convert them into gold, and use the gold to buy things that are later stolen, or the gold itself it stolen, that's theft. It's not a different kind of theft because you payed real money for IG currency; that was your choice. You'll notice how if you buy artefacts, they reset to the owner. If something is that valuable to you, have it made resetting. Journals can also be made resetting by the bookbinder in Thera.

    @Katzchen, I'm not entirely sure how Blackwind/Astral works. I thought Eye sigil forced them out like it does Phase. If not, I would consider that something to recommend changing, as such states should have something that everyone can use regardless of class to negate, such as the Eye sigil.


  • Kresslack said:

    You're proposing that someone's character literally lose their hand if they ever get caught in a theft attempt, or even admitting to it after being successful. How exactly does that help Theft as a system? That is the point of this thread, after all. Such a proposal is pretty silly and I don't see how it helps to balance Theft.
    The thing about theft in its previous incarnation was that all consequences for the thief could essentially be negated, provided the thief was committed to the outlaw lifestyle.

    Once a thief decided that they did not care about exp - and you could rob someone as effectively at level 15 as at level 90, so there was no mechanical value in exp - then there was no risk/threat/danger in death. Experience is easy to regain, unique items are not.

    The only real discouragement in being killed was that you couldn't hypnotise someone if you were paralysed/webbed/etc because someone was killing you at that very second.

    This was what made thief-hunting so intensive, because you had to be chasing and killing a thief literally every single moment that they were logged in, if you wanted to prevent them from robbing people. If you stopped for 30 seconds (no exaggeration) then they'd have found some lowbie's name on QW, warped to Thera, and hypnotised remove pack;give pack.

    The "cut off their hand" suggestion is obviously excessive, but it would provide a real consequence that can't be easily negated. It's an extreme progression of Vayne's "hot items drop from the thief's body when they are killed" suggestion from the original post.
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  • KatzchenKatzchen Mhaldor
    edited April 2013
    @kresslack I don't know if eye sigils disrupt blackwind, but that would be largely irrelevant anyway, as I believe they got in as I came out - there was no point where I was in the same room as them long enough to throw an eye sigil. I don't even -know- if that's how he got in, but I can't see any other way he could have without the door slamming after him, and getting me stuck in there as well!


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    Katzchen said:
    @kresslack I don't know if eye sigils disrupt blackwind, but that would be largely irrelevant anyway, as I believe they got in as I came out - there was no point where I was in the same room as them long enough to throw an eye sigil. I don't even -know- if that's how he got in, but I can't see any other way he could have without the door slamming after him, and getting me stuck in there as well!
    Sometimes, if it's a Serpent, they will identify someone who has a key and then Await them in the actual shop. Same with Blackwind/Astralform I suppose, except they would have to actually either follow you or spam the direction as you mentioned. Sometimes it helps to close the shop door, eye, search, then enter the stockroom.


  • Dear @Kresslack,

      Seriously, YOUR HAND is actually how others view their ITEMS...And look at how you want to protect your hands...OF course it's silly, it's meant to be outrageous! If I caught you stealing my items in Achaea I would want both your hands, hanging on my wall as a trophy...It's my role play.  How come when you want to take something...It's your TRADE, and when I want something..it's ridiculous.

     I really don't care, I think the ideas of thievery have LONG been lost to whining and complaining.  If you want my two cents on HOW to make the thief better.

      First, WEAR A MASK!  Put on a disguise... the idea I have to tell a player to GIVE BACKPACK TO COBRA...is stupid to begin with.  Really I am just working a system that didn't include thieves.   I should be able to take my knife - cut your pack right off your back and be on my way.  If you die, I should be able to TAKE ALL your possessions...but I can't.

      It's not going to work that way.  What I am suggesting, a consequence that's all...and my suggestion is obviously meant to be outrageous to prove the point that their is nothing stopping you from robbing anyone of anything.  Only one little skill called selfishness.

      I think, personally, they have already killed any idea of being a good thief.  How I got tied into this mess is beyond me.  FREE PK for 30 days...I thing that's a great idea.  For me, people feel I am FREE PK my entire life...so I could steal as much as I want and there is NO RISK!

      A professional thief doesn't say, "HI I am a professional thief..."

      You see once you have a RISK...you could lose a hand for life, now you don't want to be a thief...People feel the same way about their journal or their gold or their whatever.  They don't to LOSE anything either, but they have a RISK, they lose something.  Thieves are running around without a care in the world...

      Listen, I am only brainstorming with you guys and gals.  I am just throwing ideas out there.  If you want a better thief, then make a better thief.  Wear the mask, don't tell your victim I just stole from you...come on?  You might as well call yourself a kidnapper.

      I hold your journal for ransom! 

     Please.  All I am suggesting is that, yes a professional thief, WOULDN'T get caught, and NO ONE would know who did it.  The fact I have to literally announce COBRA IS STEALING FROM YOU...is about the lamest idea of a thief there is.

      Wear a mask.  Then you can interact as a masked man, or masked women (depending on how your dressed).  So it's more like...GIVE BACKPACK TO MASKED BANDIT!

      And when you are selling those goods, maybe have a way to scrub the owner's name off the item and resell it.  However, if your CAUGHT, not in the way it is now...but really, if the city comes and gets you...drags you kicking and screaming to the stockade...seems like some fun roleplaying to me.

      You guys have no risk, and that's why it's easy to say I AM A THIEF.  If there was risk...you would keep that to yourself and masquerade as the city greeter.  

      It's really a shame that people are going to be one sided on this.  YOU steal from me, I get to steal from you.  And anyways, what's a good pirate without a hook?

      You know, I am not the one that cares how this plays out.  I grew up in a thieving world...I am so used to it...I know it's bound to happen.  I don't care.  It's not a big deal to me.  What is a BIG DEAL is when "they" say...YOU CAN'T STEAL...you don't get a choice. 

      I am for free will.  That is why it should be your free will to steal and my free will do to anything I want.  Once they start closing these doors...you'll know your free will is no longer free, and now you are just another LAW abiding citizen by force.

      I think the idea is, wanting a better thief...should have greater consequences.  Stealing is wrong, and should be treated as such, but not out right banished by a simple skill.


    Sincerely,



    Cobra
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited April 2013
    Katzchen said:
    @kresslack I don't know if eye sigils disrupt blackwind, but that would be largely irrelevant anyway, as I believe they got in as I came out - there was no point where I was in the same room as them long enough to throw an eye sigil. I don't even -know- if that's how he got in, but I can't see any other way he could have without the door slamming after him, and getting me stuck in there as well!

      @Katzchen If thats how it happened, then simply evading down would have down the trick as well, since doors don't close automatically when you evade. Also, as far as I remember, eye sigils don't work for blackwind/astral, only phase. Blackwind/Astral I think is negated by flash or some such ability druids have. 


    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

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