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Deathsights For Soulcage/Transmogrification

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  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    should get two deathsights for killing jesters, amirite?

    edit: no deathsight is what makes soulcage soulcage and not the same ol' starburst (besides a pittance of saved XPs on a six-hour timer) that everyone else already gets
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Like Cooper said, contracts are the only problem. Not losing XP is fine, that's a neat class perk, but the only real inequity is that Marks have to kill them twice to complete a contract, and that can be kinda impossible if the Necromancer/Occultist doesn't let it happen. That's the only thing that needs to change, in my opinion.

    I do think a deathsight for Soulcage/Mog would still be fair, though. Keep the 0 xp loss, give it a unique deathsight, so the victor can brag that he won, and the Necro/Occie can be smug because he didn't get anything for it. Win/win.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Exelethril
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Nah, the XP loss is already so negligible, you'd need to at least move soulcage down to the skill tree (or just delete the new soul-burst as redundant) to account for nerfing its only cool feature.

    edit: necro rezz tho
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'd be happy with it just affecting stat stats
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    It's 6 hours. It's just a free starburst - you lose all your defenses. 

    The only legitimate complaint is when you are trying to complete a contract against a soulcage user. Complaints about ganks and duels are irrelevant. 
    It's not a free starburst since the necromancer retains his exp and a starburst gives a deathsight. I'm not arguing about the former but the latter.

    My point is, killing a necromancer/occultist should merit some credit for the winner. The argument of "just kill them twice/treat it like a defense" to gain some semblance of credit for a kill is ridiculous because there's nothing about necromancers/occultists that makes them easier to fight against then any other class.

    They already have blackwind/astralform which they can trigger on death.
    There is no kill in the world I can think of that should give them the opportunity to blackwind before you can hinder, now that blackwind has both a windup and eq loss on human.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    BBT, Freeze Pound, Disembowel, 2H attacks, DWB attacks, any Druid damage attack, Axekick, Vivisect for Apostates (if an Infernal then vivisect/arc is still RNG as to them waking up before or after you regain balance), Catharsis, Absolve, Smite, Damnation, just to name the ones off the top of my head. Blackwind channel is what, 1.5 seconds? Unless it was increased since I last logged in. 
    Aerek
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You're not thinking about it very hard, then. BW/AF's wind-up is 1.5 seconds, and balance/EQ is restored to you on burst/Cage/Mog. If you trigger Cage/Mog to BW/AF, you can be long gone by the time we get balance/EQ back from -any- attack that kills you. Even if I killed you with a scimitar DSL, at 1.8, you'd still be gone before I got balance back. There are really only a few tricks to keep a Necro/Occie still on death if they don't want to be there.

    The only classes that don't have those issues are classes that, as Rom already said, kill you with locks + voyria/scytherus, or timed instant kills like behead/Heartseed, where they actually have balance the moment you die and can follow up immediately.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If I'm incorrect about the windup time then I retract my previous post. It feels way longer than 1.5s, particularly if you derpwalk into Jhui and his bros.

    ShirszaeMelodie
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,354 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    If I'm incorrect about the windup time then I retract my previous post. It feels way longer than 1.5s, particularly if you derpwalk into Jhui and his bros.
    It's 1.5s.

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  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It is something I would be comfortable addressing as a comprehensive necromancy reform package that balances out the lost coolness factor with gains elsewhere. I'm sure it won't be too long before that comes around. 
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,354 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Herenicus said:
    should get two deathsights for killing jesters, amirite?

    edit: no deathsight is what makes soulcage soulcage and not the same ol' starburst (besides a pittance of saved XPs on a six-hour timer) that everyone else already gets
    Considering soulcage/transmorg as an extra starburst mechanic minus exp loss in itself grants a strong advantage, given the starburst limit. I wouldn't consider it just an "ol 'starburst" since an extra life in group combat is an advantage among other things. (3 versus 2 deaths to take a necromancer/occultist out of the playing field)

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  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    On top of gems of reincarnation and regular starbursts, an extra soulburst just ain't a transcendent ability I recognize. Still would be alright to see it traded out as part of comprehensive necromancy reform, when that happens, since I recognize some people really want hardcoded credit for the accomplishment.
    Shirszae
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Isn't astralform instant?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not anymore. Both astralform and blackwind have a 1.5 second channel
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    guess I missed that change, thanks!
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Herenicus said:
    On top of gems of reincarnation and regular starbursts, an extra soulburst just ain't a transcendent ability I recognize.
    An extra Starburst might not be a big deal for you, personally, but recall that Starburst tattoos were changed specifically because having multiple starbursts is a big advantage. They're a force multiplier that effectively adds extra people to your raid group. If there's 5 raiders, and they all have Starburst, we have to kill 10 people. If they're all Necromancers, they all have Soulcage, so now we have to kill 15 people. That's a big deal.

    Gem is irrelevant, because you can have that, too. You'd have to kill me 3 times with Burst/Gem, but I'd have to kill you 4 with Cage/Burst/Gem. No matter what happens, Necro/Occies have to be killed one more time than the rest of us to actually kill them. That's a considerable factional advantage, especially when several people have it.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Exelethril
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    It's not necessarily the starburst aspect of it that people are affected by though, which is why it confuses me that it's the thing that's being brought up most often. The real impact of it is its ability to negate the effects of death (contracts/writs/stat stats) where a death would have typically occurred. This isn't too much of an issue in duels, and if anything a waste of its functionality, but if you're a Mark trying to complete a contract on an Apostate, Infernal or Occultist, you're probably going to have a bad time, because they have a free shot at killing you to cancel the contract while they're immune to death - if they fail and soulcage gets activated, then they just run until the next time it's up. That's worth looking at, but I don't think it's some highly overpowered mechanic. If anything, it's just a classlead submission that the admin can decide upon.
    AerekKlendathuExelethril
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Apostates lose baalzedeens on burst too which is incredibly annoying and impacts their usefulness greatly.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Melodie
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My only point is that a second starburst (when everyone already gets one) plus the ready availability of reincarnation gems, starts to eat into situations where that extra starburst is actually situation-critical. It has never (or too rarely for remembrance) been the make-or-break key to a victory I have been part of. Could a nerfed soulburst conceivably be important to someone sometime? Sure. But I'd be disappointed if this was handled as a one-off, since it would effectively makes the transcendent ability pretty boring and unimportant to me, personally. Looking forward to Necro/Apo changes in the future though; maybe this idea will make the grade. 
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Necromancy could use an overhaul for synergy reasons.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    HerenicusMelodie
  • AvtoAvto Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Soulcage is fine in group combat.
    Soulcage is not fine for jerk bob who killed naive bill and bob is now hiding from the wrath of champion bull.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Will denizens that trip soulburst create a special deathsight, too? The nice thing about the current system is that it doesn't alert the listening world to your location. And treeing someone in their city is already a punishment, in my opinion, even if achieving the deathsight is admittedly a tricksy proposition. I guess I just don't see the change as a need so much as a want, if deeply felt. 
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The only thing non necro users want, as far as I can gather, is for soulcage / transmog is for soulcage / transmog to count as a win for the purpose of contracts, be it as the victim or the mark member. Don't see why it's such a big ask.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, it could be structured so that soulcaging, as is, counts as successfully connecting the dots on a bounty. Like snatching the tail off some offending lizard.
    Trey
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    100% fine with that outcome. No reason for it not to count, you're basically selfrezzing. No reason to cheat someone who worked for the kill out of credit. 

    HerenicusJovolo
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,324 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    The only thing non necro users want, as far as I can gather, is for soulcage / transmog is for soulcage / transmog to count as a win for the purpose of contracts, be it as the victim or the mark member. Don't see why it's such a big ask.
    Because that's the entire point of the ability - that you aren't dying. 

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes, that's the overall point of the ability, but that has several different independent benefits:

    Not showing up on deathsight, not losing experience, not counting towards stat stats and not counting towards contracts, to name some off the top of my head. If we can isolate the facet of the ability that people are taking issue with and see it as a mechanic that is unfair - namely the ability to negate contract completion - then we can fix that specifically and retain the "overall point of the ability" by keeping the remainder of those benefits.  
    ExelethrilTrey
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Klendathu said:
    The only thing non necro users want, as far as I can gather, is for soulcage / transmog is for soulcage / transmog to count as a win for the purpose of contracts, be it as the victim or the mark member. Don't see why it's such a big ask.
    Because that's the entire point of the ability - that you aren't dying. 
    Note I didn't mention it counting as a death, I mentioned it counting as a win. ;)

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,272 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But the person who hires on the necromancer is supposed to get some exp from the fulfilled contract, right? How would that work, if the necromancer does not lose any exp for the non-death?

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just conjure some XPs from the digital ether and drive on, if they decide to take the minimalist approach.
    Shirszae
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