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Deathsights For Soulcage/Transmogrification

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  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tael said:
    Jhui said:
    maybe things like bbt, behead (this already might), aurify, dsb, absolve, cath, and other finishers could just go through cage/mog and allow them to keep the defence, so it primarily becomes a group survival ability.

    There's at least options to bypass it that way, even if finishers aren't the best method of killing
    I actually really, really like this idea.

    Like you die so instantly that you don't have time to snatch your soul back or something. That would be a really nice way of balancing out the weird incentives the abilities create in 1v1.

    Many classes don't have insta-kills, or can't use insta-kills in certain class matchups or vs certain types of curing.

    "Fixing" soulcage for some classes and not others would be just as unbalanced as giving some classes free deaths and not others.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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      1. TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
        Ernam said:

        "Fixing" soulcage for some classes and not others would be just as unbalanced as giving some classes free deaths and not others.
        No. It wouldn't.

        It isn't a total solution, sure, but it's a relatively straightforward one. It would be reducing the current imbalance without entirely eliminating it. Some (most) classes being able to deal with cage/mog is better than no classes. It certainly is't "just as unbalanced", it is strictly more balanced.
      2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited November 2014

        Just a singular example which can be extrapolated to most others:

        If you make soulcage bypassable by absolve, but not Smite, then the entire concept of health vs mana pressure for priest goes away.  Smite needs to be able to kill people for Absolve to work.  If you make Smite not kill people, then Absolve can't kill people, so now the priest can't use either.  The same idea can easily be applied to things like knight damage bursts vs insta-kills, etc.

        Not going to get in a huge debate over this one, because I don't really see it as that big of a deal (although soulcage is used far more frequently than angel sacrifice, which apparently warrants massive forum outcries and a witch-hunt for nerfing, despite being worse than soulcage).

        We'll keep on doing what we've always done.  Fighting necromancers, caging them, and watching them poof back to Mhaldor to wait another 9 hours to regrow some [courage].

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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            DalranTerra
          1. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,162 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            So killing a necromancer sends them out of the game for 9 hours? That's pretty OP. Buff soulcage imo.
            AradorSherazadExelethril
          2. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Santar said:
            Mishgul said:
            If someone is gonna run on soulcage/mog, chances are they wouldn't bother fighting you at all if they didn't have those abilities.
            So what you're saying is that because they have the ability, they get to engage in combat for free, and have a chance to kill you without putting theirself at any risk.
            Yes. As a serpent/aff class though, you should definitely have several ways to get that double kill to negate soulcage, so this applies less to you. Paladins and Infernals should be able to get an advantage in on soulcage with targetted arc delphinium on any equilibrium based kill. The classes that suffer the most against soulcage are the same classes that have to deal with vitality as a defense (except maybe Jester), and if someone tanks a kill combo with vitality up, and runs away to redef it, no one is going to complain half as much as they would with soulcage, even though though I am arguing the principles are similar if everyone considers the implications properly and fights appropriately. 

            -

            One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

            As drawn by Shayde
            hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
          3. SybillaSybilla LondonMember Posts: 503 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited November 2014
            Jovolo said:
            So killing a necromancer sends them out of the game for 9 hours? That's pretty OP. Buff soulcage imo.
            Potentially, yes.

            While the AB is right in that you'd get a positive more than a negative, there have been awful bad luck streaks where you're stuck on -3 CON, slow eq, and some random arbitrary thing for 9 hours. There's a certain point that you get bad mutations, and the cost/loss of a death (starburst or otherwise) is worth it, so you just kill yourself to at least get to default. Later on though, it's harder to justify.

            I call those my paperwork mutations.

            Edit to add: I have no idea how this works for necromancy though, sorry!
            Melodie
          4. MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 4,951 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Necromancy's isn't quite so interesting, unfortunately. It does work just like transmogrify, but it does not grant any extra effects, positive or negative. It costs about 30% essence (which is a good deal) to activate.
            "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

            But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
          5. ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,347 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Mishgul said:
            You could always ask them not to use it, and hope they don't. I don't consider soulcage to be the end of a fight personally (if i am fighting to the death), for some reason people do, I've always treated at as a mega vitality that they can only use once per 4 hours. 

            I feel like this is more of a peoples perspective/mindset issue rather than a mechanical one.
            I don't think it's fair that your opponent has to kill you twice to win a fight, given that neither Infernal/Apostate/Occultist are lacking in any particular area defensively or offensively to merit two lives.

            This perspective doubles the length of time someone needs to properly kill you, giving you more consequence-free time to kill them and assuming both parties know how to fight, is a huge advantage.

            I'm not suggesting a mechanical change to either Soulcage/Transmogrify but one which credits the killer, which I still think is fair in an equal scenario. 

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            ShirszaeAlrena
          6. BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Every class should have a few amazing things. It's fun. And cool. I hate the tendency towards nerfing by committee. All it does is slowly take away everyone's best toys.

            If you're nerfing the rezz aspect of Transmog, you should take out the negative mutations. Many of the positive ones verge on useless anyway (eg. resistance to an obscure damage type, +STR/+DEX, endurance regen), compared to crippling stuff like slowed EQ recovery or a sip penalty.
            image
            ExelethrilHerenicusShirszaeJosoulMishgul
          7. MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,089 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            I don't care about kill, just have 

            CONTRACT KILLS IGNORE SOULCAGE/TRANSMOGRIFY
            image
            ExelethrilShirszaeSynbiosAchilles
          8. ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,347 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Bump  

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          9. HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Soulcage isn't death; it is a shame-free exercise in fuckin' witchall and must so remain.
            TreyMelodie
          10. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            have you tried the following:

            a) Fight people who don't have the soulcage ability.

            b) try asking them not to use soulcage.

            c) ask for a duel where the fight continues beyond soulcage, where you consider it a defence instead of a starburst.

            d) Bring a tactic to nullify the effectiveness of soulcage, via killing them with something where you can immediately attack upon soulcage triggering. This may require you changing class, or having to learn something.

            e) bring someone to nullify the effectiveness of soulcage when you try to kill the person who has soulcage.

            f) don't fight people who have soulcage.


            -

            One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

            As drawn by Shayde
            hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
            HerenicusShirszae
          11. ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,347 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            All your options are pretty circumstantial. Necromancers/Occultists don't need two lives, given how strong they are as classes.

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          12. TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            especially if they blackwind/astralform when the soulcage/transmog hits, right?
            Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
            Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
            Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

          13. HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited March 2015


            If it gives a deathsight, might as well ding some XPs and make the transcendent Necro ability a free starburst.
          14. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Or give us necro rezz

            -

            One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

            As drawn by Shayde
            hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
            Melodie
          15. SaurroceneSaurrocene Member Posts: 36 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
            Do not think credit should be given because they do not actually die. It would also award people who help their friend try and get a better transmog or some such.
          16. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,162 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited March 2015
            It's really not that bad, I find it's more thematic than anything. Grove users can resurrect themselves and their allies everything 15 minutes as they will, whereas necromancers instead can attain a brief touch of immortality every few hours. It's subjective, but I find grove resurrection more consistently useful personally. If anything, holding on to a soulcage in order to avoid contracts etc means you basically can't do anything that would risk you dying in the ~6 hours downtime of not having soulcage if you do die.

            I forget the amount of time exactly, but it's pretty prohibitive at a minimum of six hours. It's a fixed time period somewhere between 6 and 9 hours iirc. 
            Shirszae
          17. CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,867 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            It's 6 hours. It's just a free starburst - you lose all your defenses. 

            The only legitimate complaint is when you are trying to complete a contract against a soulcage user. Complaints about ganks and duels are irrelevant. 

            Tharvis
          18. AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,493 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Cooper said:
            It's 6 hours. It's just a free starburst - you lose all your defenses. 

            The only legitimate complaint is when you are trying to complete a contract against a soulcage user. Complaints about ganks and duels are irrelevant. 
            There's also the benefit of how much essence you save.  A player who cages once a RL day would save over 20 million essence per year off soulcage alone (and likewise you deprive the opposition from gaining that essence).  

            Necromancers can already make bodies of both allies and enemies into a powerful weapon.  Would rather have that than devo rez, just have a non-com Alchemist ready to rez and don't embrace immediately upon death if an ally picked up your corpse.
            image
          19. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            I will trade it with you. Devo rezz for soulspear.

            -

            One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

            As drawn by Shayde
            hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
            HerenicusTreyMelodieArador
          20. TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,720 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            We're keeping soulcage though, sorry.

            Shirszae
          21. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,927 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            If you're having trouble killing someone after they basically burst, and have no defenses, you may want to reevaluate your step up.


          22. RomRom Member Posts: 523 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            Kresslack said:
            If you're having trouble killing someone after they basically burst, and have no defenses, you may want to reevaluate your step up.
            Not arguing either way, but this point is largely invalid for most classes in most situations. When you burst you regain balance and EQ, you're standing, you lose all your afflictions, etc. People have to actually use balance/eq to land a killing blow 90% of the time. This means after that Knight fatally disembowels you they're off balance for ~2.7s, you're no longer engaged for Isaz, whatever. Monk finally BBTs you fatally and is off balance for ~3.6s, they didn't even have any hinder to begin with and you have all the time you could want to walk away, they lose their mind lock so no mind travel or whatever. Obviously this is more the case for classes that can't traditionally lock->voyria or whatever other balanceless killing blow is available to them.

            A lot of the nature of Achaean combat allows for someone who doesn't wish to die to not die, and when you burst that is typically a wish come true.
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          23. ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,347 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Cooper said:
            It's 6 hours. It's just a free starburst - you lose all your defenses. 

            The only legitimate complaint is when you are trying to complete a contract against a soulcage user. Complaints about ganks and duels are irrelevant. 
            It's not a free starburst since the necromancer retains his exp and a starburst gives a deathsight. I'm not arguing about the former but the latter.

            My point is, killing a necromancer/occultist should merit some credit for the winner. The argument of "just kill them twice/treat it like a defense" to gain some semblance of credit for a kill is ridiculous because there's nothing about necromancers/occultists that makes them easier to fight against then any other class.

            They already have blackwind/astralform which they can trigger on death.

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