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...So why is there still XP loss in this game?

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  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I love the idea of actually going through the underworld. I mean, now that that's where our characters end up, why not let us explore it?

    It could easily get boring after doing it enough times, but if I recall from the flavor text, it's a despairing place where might means very little, so it could be interesting in that regard!

  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    I remember a very long time ago that once you died, you had to navigate through some world and complete a small quest instead of embracing death. Is that another IRE game, or is it Achaea? I honestly can't remember.
    There was a MUD I played back in high school where when you died, you had to walk around as a soul and find an item to take back to a priest to resurrect you. No idea if any of the IRE games ever did that, though.
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Death should have consequences beyond XP loss. XP loss is a flat, uninteresting and outright frustrating mechanic that is only tangentially related to actual roleplay, so the persistent arguments that "REMOVING XP LOSS FROM DEATH DESTROYS [email protected]!11111" are completely invalid and I don't think I've met a single person that has cherished the XP loss component of death as a constructive and character-building element in my five years playing this game.

    Death absolutely has consequences. It just needs to not have consequences mechanically enforced on such a base level - XP is hard to get, and even harder to keep if you participate in combat often enough. There is no valid, substantiated argument for retaining XP loss in modern games or even old ones for that matter. I would much prefer people invested the effort spent in the throes of hoarding their precious XP points on actual character development instead. Bashing is already largely a singleplayer affair in a multiplayer game - why perpetuate it? Why have a mechanic that is specifically designed to force someone to disengage with the game in order to become stronger in it? Sure, you can join a raid and hope you snag a last hit, but you are going to have a far greater rate of return bashing, and with gold income to boor.

    @Nim has pretty much hit the nail on the head. If there's no XP loss for death, what do we have in its place? Non-mechanical wounding? Stat loss? Money loss? Gear loss? What limitation do we exchange in its place that is not worse than the former option? I honestly don't know. I wish I did. Essence loss on death has tangible consequences (sort of) for people in Orders, which is a good start. Perhaps that could be fleshed out or something? Time spent alive and bashing awards you a small experience and damage bonus which is lost on death (max 5%), call it vitality bonus or something like that. Something that rewards people for staying alive over punishing them for dying.


    It's not about XP removal destroying RP, because nobody really associates XP loss to RP. I believe a lot of association is gained from player to character through having something taken away from you. The fear of loss is something that helps spur that pulse pounding combat and general care for your character..  I can tell you that in other games, Idgaf if I die, and combat is relaxed and whatever.

    Best comparison I have is FFXI to FFXIV. FFXI is still hugely popular in japan, and yes there is XP loss. In fact, there was a lot of hate in japan about the removal of XP loss, but games these days have to be catered to more casual moneycows. Thing is, I freaked out a lot more in FFXI about dying then I ever will in FFXIV, and I will always look upon my white mage from FFXI with that much more respect. He's been through the trieals, deleveled, and had his ass handed to him, and he still made it all the way through.

    Sure it's an annoying mechanic, but it ultimately proves to be more gratifying than dissapointing. I cherish every bit of advancement, mourne every bit of loss, and that's what achaea is about to me.

    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    ShirszaeSybillaBorran
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    NM, derailing.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,162 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Valdus said:
    I HATE the fact they removed XP loss and such from Imperian.

    I will ABSOLUTELY quit playing Achaea if they ever remove it here.
    I would be all in favor of xp loss being removed, but only if it was replaced with something much more rewarding. The problem is that so many ideas sound absolutely awesome on paper. But after the 3252623623th time, almost everything overly complicated becomes a drag. Specially when sometimes people die over and over and over in a short amount of time.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Nim
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Aepas: Some counter arguments:

    1. Some people take the loss way too seriously, and get frustrated by it. That's the nature of consequences, and it's ultimately unavoidable without just removing consequences altogether (which, in turn, makes for a rather boring roleplaying game!), but it's still a factor you should consider when designing consequences, if that makes sense!
    2. Experience loss on death is not always that much of a penalty. Low level characters take considerably less time to recover from experience loss, and I believe it's capped, so dragons tend to be in the same position. I feel like level 80ish characters suffer the most from it, which brings me to my next point.
    3. Experience loss from death involves applying a PvE penalty to PvPers. Yeah, you can get the EXP back from PvP too, but efficient experience gain is more within the realm of PvE than PvP. Why should I be forced to go bash up places just because I like PvP? I hate PvE. It's boring. Don't make me do it. I don't want to!
    4. It also discourages anything but safe PvE, which in turn makes PvE boring as per above. I'd rather hunt things that have a realistic chance of killing me - it's fun! But... it also invariably ends up costing me as much EXP as I gain. Boring!

    That said, I'm probably unable to agree with your basic argument to begin with, since I've never seen EXP loss as gratifying. It's always been an accepted cost or a mild disappointment. I mean, I like consequences, it's just, losing EXP feels kinda weak and semi-OOC as far as consequences go. Like, wow, you killed me and now I might want to kill other things to recover from it, or maybe I won't because I don't care enough to.

    I mean, I guess I'll have to avoid dying the estimated 52 times in a row it'd take to lose Logosian, because I'd hate to have to regain that, but that's about it!

    Aepas
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Eld said:


    Daeir said:

    I remember a very long time ago that once you died, you had to navigate through some world and complete a small quest instead of embracing death. Is that another IRE game, or is it Achaea? I honestly can't remember.

    There was a MUD I played back in high school where when you died, you had to walk around as a soul and find an item to take back to a priest to resurrect you. No idea if any of the IRE games ever did that, though.
    Surprise! It's Imperian.
    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,320 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People notice xp loss?

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    People notice xp loss?
    I noticed when my deaths balanced out my bashing for gold.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,320 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My fitness plan!

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    AlcinaeStrata
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tesha said:
    One of the reasons Dark Souls and Demon's Souls were so popular is because they were difficult. The complexity in the Call of Duty era is simply non-existant, and that enables a pick-up-and-play with an extremely low entry barrier. Dark Souls and Demon's Souls were popular because they were crushingly difficult and had a higher entry barrier, and required a lot more thought and effort. 

    @Tesha this is absolutely correct in my opinion. I admit that being killed by a Gnoll if the connection drops really sucks XP wise. In my opinion, this is the only element that might be addressed, if any. Thankfully, this does not happen that much. 
    However, good games are supposed to be challenging and thrilling. I still have to finish DS and I assure you that it is one of the greatest games ever. Also, a couple of days ago I was killed by someone for earlier participating in a raid in Achaea. It sucked, but it added depth to the gaming experience. You are never safe. 


    Light prevails, always
  • AthraxAthrax Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm so confused right now.  Is Jarrod's idea happening or not?
    DaslinStrata
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,544 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How did this thread reach three pages?

    KyriellaCaoimhaenShirszae
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,199 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    I have two of six Atlatls, fyi.

    STOP ACCUSING ME!

    Okay, I had four, but the grief was strong.


    SilasJozlynKyrraHyperlith
  • FitzFitz Fire and SpiceMember Posts: 599 @ - Epic Achaean
    Since part of the concern seems to be that people avoid interaction for fee of losing xp from dying, at least according to some of the earlier posts....why not introduce xp loss for sitting to long in cities....
    Balkin
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Aktillum said:
    OP is looking at this all the wrong way. He sees death as a setback to his text-life. I see it as an excuse to make IRL improvements. How long is praying to Thoth? Like, 5 mins? You can do a lot of pushups in 5 minutes. Take part in raids and I guarantee you'll see IRL gains in like a month.
    One could get a lot of cardio if they performed socially unacceptable dance moves after getting tremolo'd. Even if you don't die - just get up and start dancing as soon as tremolo hits. You're going to be dead anyway so might as well get a head start. Bonus points if you yodle "Noobs gonna tremolo" at full volume while dancing.
    image
    Cathy
  • KiushaKiusha Member Posts: 16 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    We should probably make a distinction here between dying from denizens during hunting, and dying through adventurer combat.

    Concerning the first, and speaking as someone who has stacked up quite a few deaths to denizens, also because of a lot of connection issues when I was around level 50, I have to say that the fear of death really adds to the flavour of the hunt, especially when taking on challenging opponents. It also helps with IC considerations of which opponents are out of your league, making for richer roleplay than just going with trial and error. It may seem like a good idea to take away the risk, but it will end up leaving the game emptier for it.

    As far as involvement in PvP is concerned, I think the currently existing distinction between defense and offense is a good one. When you live in a city which is suddenly attacked, it makes sense from a roleplay perspective that you take up arms to defend your home and band together. It makes a lot less sense though to go raiding another city into a certain death: "Are you crazy, they'll kill me on sight!". Therefore, no XP loss on defending your home, but definitely XP loss on attacking. An exception could maybe be made for times of actual war, but other than that the actual risk may prevent some people from taking part, but that ties in logically to any IC fear their characters experience.

    Thankfully, not everyone in Achaea suffers from recklessness, as that would be everything but realistic.
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Daeir said:
    I remember a very long time ago that once you died, you had to navigate through some world and complete a small quest instead of embracing death. Is that another IRE game, or is it Achaea? I honestly can't remember.
    Do I get to train on King Kai's planet and learn the Spirit Bomb technique?

    image

    Balkin
  • DakloreDaklore Member Posts: 804 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    But... you need to be pure of heart to learn that technique! D:
    image
    When Canada rules the world,
    things will be... nii~ice.
    AlcinaeBalkin
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    <3 Sarapis :D
    StrataJozlynShirszae
  • AthraxAthrax Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Fitz said:
    Since part of the concern seems to be that people avoid interaction for fee of losing xp from dying, at least according to some of the earlier posts....why not introduce xp loss for sitting to long in cities....
    @Fitz - except... those are the same people that don't mind engaging in activities likely to cause death.   I mean... there is a pretty large set of people that I basically never see outside of their city unless we're killing or harrassing each other.
  • FitzFitz Fire and SpiceMember Posts: 599 @ - Epic Achaean
    Nobody gets jokes anymore :(
  • AthraxAthrax Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    sadface

    image
    FitzBalkin
This discussion has been closed.