Venom combinations and overall Knight Combat Techniques

Mishgul

scales is more annoying than shrugging for me as a knight, but iirc artied monks blow through serpents.

Jhui

Mishgul said:

scales is more annoying than shrugging for me as a knight, but iirc artied Ashuran monks blow through serpents.

Fixed.

a mounted/smart serpent is pretty hard to prone/double break for long enough to kill.  Ashura are fine using jpk though, so we good.

Sylvance

Jhui said:

Mishgul said:

scales is more annoying than shrugging for me as a knight, but iirc artied Ashuran monks blow through serpents.

Fixed.

a mounted/smart serpent is pretty hard to prone/double break for long enough to kill.  Ashura are fine using jpk though, so we good.

So what? You're gonna leave your Bards and Bladies hanging like that?

Jhui

those kids can kill just fine

Wessux

Mishgul said:

Also shrugging is fine, easy to get around

Can you explain this a little further? Maybe PM?

Eld

Wessux said:

Mishgul said:

Also shrugging is fine, easy to get around

Can you explain this a little further? Maybe PM?

You get around shrugging by killing the serpent.

Nemutaur

Sylvance said:

Jhui said:

Mishgul said:

scales is more annoying than shrugging for me as a knight, but iirc artied Ashuran monks blow through serpents.

Fixed.

a mounted/smart serpent is pretty hard to prone/double break for long enough to kill.  Ashura are fine using jpk though, so we good.

So what? You're gonna leave your Bards and Bladies hanging like that?

Ask @Mizik about BM and the blunt Icon in raids. He loved it.

Santar

A mounted Serpent isn't any better vs. monks than a mounted <insert other class>, so that's a pretty moot point to make. 

Jovolo

Doesn't make much of a diff against Monks. More of a factor against runewardens, who are the most bummed out by shrugging. (give runies a way to bypass it for however amount of time and leave it as is agaisnt the rest of the classes? I prefer something like that than removing it altogether really).

Jhui

Santar said:

A mounted Serpent isn't any better vs. monks than a mounted <insert other class>, so that's a pretty moot point to make. 

The point was that monks don't blow through serpents unless they are unmounted. (Unless you're ashuran)

Mizik

Man, monk so blows through Serpents.

If the Serpent wants to postpone death, can start up an icewall/firelash battle.

Jhui

quit fighting bad serpents Miz and fight without icon.  You'll see

Mizik

I didn't take over the strongest, largest House in the game's DICTATORSHIP to be shutting off the icon I had to squelch the entire Council of said House to re-tune.

Exelethril

Santar said:

Stop trying to nerf shrugging. Every class has defensive abillities. Serpents have no others forms of protection other than shrugging, nor do they have very much hindering. 

In response to the double delph always going through - Absolutely not. That's essentially you saying that you want shrugging to only work when it doesn't matter much, and for it to not work against the things that do matter. I'm quite sure you -would-  like shrugging to never work when you don't want it to. Also, you're not having to spend 10 minutes to prep a Serpent. That's a gross exaggeration. Limb prep doesn't take more than a couple of minutes to prep unless you're against ridiculous hindering classes or classes with good defense against it(bards/occultists). In addition to that, if delph/delph is shrugged, that's only 1 leg that you have to reprep. You don't lose your whole prep.  Every class has the potential to blow their prep. Combat shouldn't be as simple as prepping and then just winning once you do. There has to be a lot of randomness/opportunity involved to make it interesting. You shouldn't expect to do the same thing against every class and to have it work the same. I'd love for fitness, rite of healing, halleluhah, grove heal, demon refuge, Priest heal, and necklace of purity to be removed.  Sure would benefit my class. 

Shrugging isn't overpowered. Knights don't need another way to prone. Perhaps you're forgetting the multitude of defenses that each of the Knight classes have against Serpents(fitness, rune of healing, rite of healing). Serpent vs. Knight is equally balanced for each person right now. It's a matchup that is almost always decided by player skill, and nothing needs to be changed on either side.

Also, I have no idea why I was 'tagged' in the above post. Please don't tag me in posts/topics that I have nothing to do with.

Mathematically, there's only a 0.67*0.67 = ~0.45% success rate of actually having double delph go through each time, since if one shrug triggers, the entire set up is wasted. Each time it fails, re-prepping a competent serpent through shrugging other venoms is quite a hassle, so yeah, disagree.

Jhui

Santar was dumb about that point, don't listen to him.

Serpent will need something else if it is removed though.

Tvistor

Making heartstop forceable via hypnosis would be acceptable.

Naisar

Yeah, going to have to agree with shrugging being slightly silly.  I don't mind it when it's popping off the venoms people are using for DPS or afflicting, but the very high likelihood of it passively destroying a carefully prepared setup is very nasty.  

Arditi

Naisar said:

Yeah, going to have to agree with shrugging being slightly silly.  I don't mind it when it's popping off the venoms people are using for DPS or afflicting, but the very high likelihood of it passively destroying a carefully prepared setup is very nasty.  

"My combat tactic is the only moral combat tactic".

Naisar

I'm not sure what the point of your post is, but if that's the impression you got from what I said you're wandering far afield of my intent.

Arador

Make Delph, Epseth and Epteth go through shrugging. Who cares about Sentinels and Bards?

Aerek

If Lunge could target limbs, or if Battlecry was usable off-balance, it would also provide an alternative to the shrugging issue. In case of Battlecry, you'd still need prefarar, but only one of them would have to take effect, not both.

Sylvance

Aerek said:

If Lunge could target limbs, or if Battlecry was usable off-balance, it would also provide an alternative to the shrugging issue. In case of Battlecry, you'd still need prefarar, but only one of them would have to take effect, not both.

Welcome back, @Aerek

Jovolo

Shrugging topic: Runewardens should really get a way to bypass shrugging. Paladin's ARGUABLY, and Infernal's are fine with shrugging. Knights are already immensely strong classes and serpent is just an interesting counter... it's Runewarden's that get truly effed over. Paladin's get two passive ways to strip shrugging, one of those silently. They also get amazing damage. Infernal's have leprosy, though it really needs to get its base eq sped up. It's at least faster than restoration balance, but how close it cuts it isn't very reasonable. Runewardens have nothing. 

Don't really know what else to say about weapons, as I think Tecton is already working on it and probably already has a plan.

Sylvance

They're three different classes, man. Just because Palas and Infernals can do something doesn't mean Runies need to be able to do it.

Sena

Sylvance said:

They're three different classes, man. Just because Palas and Infernals can do something doesn't mean Runies need to be able to do it.

That's not "runewardens need this because the other knights have it", it's "runewardens need this, period, but the other knight classes don't because they already have it".

Mishgul

To be fair rock paper scissors. Runewardens can go to knight hell

Antonius

There's the minor point of Runewardens also having one of the passive ways to strip defences that Paladins do, and that their damage isn't that far behind Paladin.

Sylvance

Sena said:

Sylvance said:

They're three different classes, man. Just because Palas and Infernals can do something doesn't mean Runies need to be able to do it.

That's not "runewardens need this because the other knights have it", it's "runewardens need this, period, but the other knight classes don't because they already have it".

Ah, okay. I can get behind that argument. Un-Disagreeing.

Jovolo

Antonius said:

There's the minor point of Runewardens also having one of the passive ways to strip defences that Paladins do, and that their damage isn't that far behind Paladin.

Is it passive? Assuming you mean tiwaz. I was under the impression it stripped defences only if you enter a room with it sketched (And a wunjo before it, too.). Its usefulness in this regard is not very high and not exactly comparable to cleansing. It would be more helpful if it actually worked as a passive ability in the room instead of an on-entrance ability.

Sena

Falcons are a passive way to strip defences.