doubt it will go in anytime soon. I have no idea if any ideas are even settled on. Once that is even figured out, it will still take a long time after that.
if you just set your system to do prefarar/curare, repeat DSL on balance, and then go make a sandwich, you'll be able to kill me just fine. Pro knight status for you Sir
Tecton, Cardan, & Co have mentioned that they're looking into an
overhaul of the weaponry system to make it more varied and less "speed
is king". They haven't given any details or timeframe, though, which is
understandable because the weaponry system is such a huge, far-reaching
game element that the smallest tweaks could impact half a dozen classes,
in addition to the obvious significance to the knight classes.
No
one has any idea what it will come out looking like, and it's possible that the way
Chivalry works might have to change with it because of how closely they're related. It's just too large and
complicated of a project for anyone to really speculate on what the changes might be.
Well, think about it. Let's simplify it. What change will impact the game adequately? Do we want to make all weapons fast? If 'speed is king', then are we trying to slow combat down overall? What does the public want? Why are we revamping weapons?
Do you want your weapons of choice to be faster, or do you want combat and curing (herb, salve, smoke , focus bal) to be slowed? Do you want weapons to just be flavour? Any bit helps.
I think we should start with idea that we want to introduce variety into the system. The way it's set up currently, rapiers are the goto weapon for any knight. Let's figure out how the system needs to be tweaked so that longswords, broadswords, scimitars, bastard swords (which I've never seen in my Achaean career. Didn't know we had them til I looked at the help file just now.), battleaxes, and warhammers are viable given achievable weapon stats. Rapiers should not be the goto weapon. Heck I don't even feel like they're appropriate for a knight.
Something else I'd like to see is for knights to be able to wield a shield and a sword, and still be dangerous. This is probably just a fruitless dream though.
I wrote this huge reply which I then somehow deleted with my phone. Until I get home I'll just summarize with the beginning rageful intro.
You forgot to say anything at all. You can't just say "Yeah man, I'm done with chicks, but I'm not doing any dudes. I can't wait to get some." Start with my previous post. Pick an option and elaborate upon it or surprise me with something original.
That magical new gender isn't just gonna pop out into existence and just put out. Sometimes you have to make it.
Rapiers are the only knight weapons that are always faster than two herb balances. Using rapiers and an intelligent selection and sequence of venoms allows a knight to stack afflictions.
Why does a knight want to stack afflictions?
- Bypass parry
- Increase damage
- Slow curing by soft and venom locks
- Hinder
So, if we want all weapons on a level playing field, then all will have to provide these characteristics in some manner. That doesn't mean that every weapon must be equally effective in each characteristic, though.
So, here's what I've got for weapon ideas.
Across the board:
Duel wielding gives a 25% reduction in damage per weapon, so a dsl would hit for 150% of a single jab.
Longsword:
Mid damage, low-mid balance recovery (2s)
Broadsword:
Mid-High damage, mid balance recovery (2.4s)
Shortsword:
If DEX isn't reworked, leave this to the newbs as an accurate but weak weapon.
If DEX is reworked, make it fast. Current rapier speed and damage.
Scimitar:
Eh drawing a blank on this one. Can't thing of a way to make it different enough from shortswords and long swords.
Bastard sword:
Highest damage, always bypasses parry/guarding/orb. 1 second windup, 1 second stun, long balance recovery (5s).
Rapier:
Least damage, less than it is now. Short balance recovery (1.3s). Meant purely to stack venoms.
Battleaxe:
2nd highest damage. 0.5 second stun, long balance recovery (4s).
Morning Star:
Mid range damage, target bleeds 25 on every attack. Medium balance recovery (3s)
Flail:
Mid-low range damage, target bleeds 40 on every attack. Medium balance recovery (3s)
Lance:
Wieldable only while riding. High damage, dismounts target on connect if target is riding.
Shields:
Wielding a shield allows the knight to follow a weaponry attack with shield bash, stunning the opponent for 0.5s (not stackable with other weaponry stun) and dealing a small amount of damage, say about the same as a rapier jab. The shield bash functions as a dsl in that it takes on the balance of the wielded weapon.
The musings of a mind tier combatant, but there you have it. Don't be too hard on me.
Yeah I'm sure my numbers are way off as far as balancing things. I was thinking that rapiers would be super low damage, even with sensitivity would only land around current rapier damage. The idea is that rapiers stack venoms, so that kills would come from sensitivity, darkshade, venomlocks to slow sipping/moss. Prep would take forever, so dsb wouldn't be ideal with rapiers.
Honestly, if all weapons were just flavour we'd lose nothing - they're already not being used. Keep battleaxes as they are, Prof-wise Paladins get scimitars, longswords Infernals, Runewardens broadswords. All three stat clones on rapier artefact stat tier.
Rapier becomes Bard class weapon, and look, we can adjust rapier stats to suit that class only without having a 3 class collateral.
Can't do shield. They add damage resist. Boosting Knight resist bad. Maybe Bard/Sentinel (since Sentinel is Achilles from Troy).
Even so, 1.3 second dsl is a good deal faster than any other afflicting class, and with that amount of hinder the longer prep time wouldn't really be a problem imo. Also, not to disparage your idea, but it presents the same problems as the current system. Unless it's constantly tweaked when other changes to the game are made, there will be certain weapons that are just better. I think the most annoying thing for me was when I tested my weapons (a while ago) and my rapiers did more damage per second than my scimitars or broadswords, as well as being more versatile both defensively and offensively because of the shorter balance time, more venoms and more frequent crits.
edit: I both like and don't like weapons being just flavour. It'd add cosmetic customisability but at the opportunity cost of not diversifying potential strategies.
I'd like the different weapon the stats to be something the forger chose, not had a chance to get.
Give damage a larger impact on limb damage + bleeding.
Let the forger choose what type of weapon it will be. scimitar/longsword for faster knight weapons, battleaxe/broadsword for damage knight weapons.
Rapiers for bards
Bastardswords, Halberds, Poleaxes and so on for whomever else who to jab/behead people with only weaponry and no chivalry. (RIP DIRK JAB)
Dirk/whips for serpents.
Handaxe/Spear/Trident for sentinels.
Flails/Warhammers remains the shatter weapon of choice. High damage shatters against dragons(warhammer), or fast shatters against normal people(flail).
Jesters can use daggers for juggling/throwing.
quaterstaff/elemental staff for druids/sylvans/mages.
No throwing weapons for anyone but sentinel/jester?
Rebalance shield/armour stats/types/class separation since everything sorta changed with race/trait changes.
I'd like the different weapon the stats to be something the forger chose, not had a chance to get.
Give damage a larger impact on limb damage + bleeding.
Let the forger choose what type of weapon it will be. scimitar/longsword for faster knight weapons, battleaxe/broadsword for damage knight weapons.
Rapiers for bards
Bastardswords, Halberds, Poleaxes and so on for whomever else who to jab/behead people with only weaponry and no chivalry. (RIP DIRK JAB)
Dirk/whips for serpents.
Handaxe/Spear/Trident for sentinels.
Flails/Warhammers remains the shatter weapon of choice. High damage shatters against dragons(warhammer), or fast shatters against normal people(flail).
Jesters can use daggers for juggling/throwing.
quaterstaff/elemental staff for druids/sylvans/mages.
No throwing weapons for anyone but sentinel/jester?
Rebalance shield/armour stats/types/class separation since everything sorta changed with race/trait changes.
Except I want a bastard sword cosmetically for my knight. Enough of this dual-wielding bullshit, my name isn't Drizzt ffs.
I really don't know how to fix it considering the tank scaling and immense amount of defensive skills. If you increase the damage on heavy weapons to make the idea of the bastard-sword wielding uber knight a reality, the scaling would be such that he would end up killing a mid-level player in like one to two hits.
I don't know how you balance damage relevance so that it makes it viable to use damage as a tactic to kill an artied dragon apostate/magi/insert tanky class here, but not make it overpowered and the new default.
The whole concept of a knight is just sad in Achaea to me. You have people in full-plate, the epitome of melee rough and tumble bruiser combatants relying on the same weaponry as a light-footed bard.
The issue, like Mizik pointed out with his first post, is that knight
classes are tied to so many fundamental game mechanics (The
everyone-can-use-it Weaponry skill, salve balances, herb balances,
writhing off blades) that are not knight-specific, to make any kind of
meaningful change to the class or its tactics means a complete re-design
of knights and how they work, or a complete overhaul of the game and
how it works. You can't just take rapier speed away from them, or our
ability to land disembowels and vivisects becomes nil, and just raising
other weapons up to rapier status wouldn't change anything except the
text that scrolls by.
The best idea I can come up with is take
the Blademaster approach and remove DSL's damage, speed, and accuracy
dependencies on weapon stats and give it its own inherent values that
are able to be balanced freely of Weaponry mechanics. (Weaponry damage could still be used to determine limb damage, so limb counting doesn't become universal and easily anticipated!) Next, give each
weapon bonuses and penalties that modify DSL's base speed and damage, (Giving
any weapon less accuracy than another would just mark it for disregard
by the players) and give each a "perk" that would make weapon choice more
than flavor and add a level of
tactical variety, but that wouldn't put one weapon clearly above the
others:
Battleaxes: extra damage, slower speed, could ignore some damage reduction (stacking with Mastery) to help "damage knights." Broadswords: no bonuses, no penalties, could break limbs faster than other bladed weapons on account of their weight. Longswords: no bonues, no penalties, could...Lunge/Arc/Raze faster. (I can't think of a good one) Scimitars:
no bonuses, no penalties, could deal extra disembowel damage because of
their curve. (Could become Paladin's starting proficiency, given its
origins) Rapiers: less damage, faster speed, could have a chance to
bypass parry (a la Airfist/Vinewreath), but deal less disembowel damage to account for that easy setup.
Lastly,
make knights SPECIALISE IN a weapon like Bards have to do for
instruments in order to get that weapon perk. They can learn all the proficiencies and use all the weapons they want, but only get the perk from their specialization, so
you can't use broadswords to prep the first limbs faster, switch to rapiers to bypass parry on the last limb, and then switch to
scimitars to guarantee your disembowel kill.
I'm not good enough with
numbers to offer how STR health-scaling should factor in, but it feel
like if battleaxes were on one end of the spectrum with an average 1400
damage on a 2.5 second balance, rapiers on the other with an average 700
damage at a 1.8 second balance, and longswords/broadswords/scimitars
somewhere in the middle at 1000 every 2.2, we'd be pretty close.
Battleaxes would become the king of damage (500 damage/sec) plus their
damage reduction bypass, and could now actually use venoms, but they
can't disembowel, so they'd become very momentum based. Rapier damage
(370 damage/sec) would get dropped to about about 80% of what it is,
now, but they can make up for that with prefarar stacks and other venom
use, as well as the ease of limb-setups for burst damage. Longswords,
broadswords, scimitars would live in the middle, (450 damage/sec)
without the damage reduction bypass of axes or the speed of rapiers, but
would still have their own unique advantages and could still be fast enough to
stack venoms and disembowel/vivisect.
That's the best I have.
-- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
@Aerek: interesting concept. You couldn't have bonuses like faster/slower writhe and faster/slower lunge, because there'd be no penalty to just switching weapons to get the bonus you wanted in those specific instances, but something of that nature could be interesting.
Comments
No one has any idea what it will come out looking like, and it's possible that the way Chivalry works might have to change with it because of how closely they're related. It's just too large and complicated of a project for anyone to really speculate on what the changes might be.
Even without a fist sigil, the noob obviously wasn't Gripping.
You forgot to say anything at all. You can't just say "Yeah man, I'm done with chicks, but I'm not doing any dudes. I can't wait to get some." Start with my previous post. Pick an option and elaborate upon it or surprise me with something original.
That magical new gender isn't just gonna pop out into existence and just put out. Sometimes you have to make it.
With plastic surgery.
Rapier becomes Bard class weapon, and look, we can adjust rapier stats to suit that class only without having a 3 class collateral.
Can't do shield. They add damage resist. Boosting Knight resist bad. Maybe Bard/Sentinel (since Sentinel is Achilles from Troy).
edit: I both like and don't like weapons being just flavour. It'd add cosmetic customisability but at the opportunity cost of not diversifying potential strategies.
And the only valid complaint is they don't like roleplaying just one weapon. Combat balance is what it is. Obviously speed will be favorable.
Mandorallen is the mightiest knight on life.
The best idea I can come up with is take the Blademaster approach and remove DSL's damage, speed, and accuracy dependencies on weapon stats and give it its own inherent values that are able to be balanced freely of Weaponry mechanics. (Weaponry damage could still be used to determine limb damage, so limb counting doesn't become universal and easily anticipated!) Next, give each weapon bonuses and penalties that modify DSL's base speed and damage, (Giving any weapon less accuracy than another would just mark it for disregard by the players) and give each a "perk" that would make weapon choice more than flavor and add a level of tactical variety, but that wouldn't put one weapon clearly above the others:
Battleaxes: extra damage, slower speed, could ignore some damage reduction (stacking with Mastery) to help "damage knights."
Broadswords: no bonuses, no penalties, could break limbs faster than other bladed weapons on account of their weight.
Longswords: no bonues, no penalties, could...Lunge/Arc/Raze faster. (I can't think of a good one)
Scimitars: no bonuses, no penalties, could deal extra disembowel damage because of their curve. (Could become Paladin's starting proficiency, given its origins)
Rapiers: less damage, faster speed, could have a chance to bypass parry (a la Airfist/Vinewreath), but deal less disembowel damage to account for that easy setup.
Lastly, make knights SPECIALISE IN a weapon like Bards have to do for instruments in order to get that weapon perk. They can learn all the proficiencies and use all the weapons they want, but only get the perk from their specialization, so you can't use broadswords to prep the first limbs faster, switch to rapiers to bypass parry on the last limb, and then switch to scimitars to guarantee your disembowel kill.
I'm not good enough with numbers to offer how STR health-scaling should factor in, but it feel like if battleaxes were on one end of the spectrum with an average 1400 damage on a 2.5 second balance, rapiers on the other with an average 700 damage at a 1.8 second balance, and longswords/broadswords/scimitars somewhere in the middle at 1000 every 2.2, we'd be pretty close. Battleaxes would become the king of damage (500 damage/sec) plus their damage reduction bypass, and could now actually use venoms, but they can't disembowel, so they'd become very momentum based. Rapier damage (370 damage/sec) would get dropped to about about 80% of what it is, now, but they can make up for that with prefarar stacks and other venom use, as well as the ease of limb-setups for burst damage. Longswords, broadswords, scimitars would live in the middle, (450 damage/sec) without the damage reduction bypass of axes or the speed of rapiers, but would still have their own unique advantages and could still be fast enough to stack venoms and disembowel/vivisect.
That's the best I have.