Shrine Defiling & Witnessing

Sohl

Sohl said:

If we did go overboard with the hunting then I apologize.

Cooper

Hmm. I was always told the rule was if you helped cause the death you give up the writ, even if you don't get the killing blow.

Mathonwy

The reason I like the writ system on the whole is because it tends to provide for more or less adequate conflict without the need for constant Divine direction, as well as the mechanisms for resolving that conflict. I tend to think it also cuts back on both lolpk on the Order's behalf and lolissuing on the defiler's (although, obviously, it's impossible to completely eliminate both). Writs have their problems, sure, but those tend to be a subset of the pitfalls of shrine conflict generally speaking, and I personally would much rather see something more interesting put into place.

The other nice thing about shrine conflict, I feel, is that it's more or less entirely 'opt in,' in terms of whether or not you want to participate, and in that regard, it's complementary to the writ system because writs sort of provide, on the one hand, a minimum level of conflict and, on the other hand, represent the natural termination point of that conflict. Speaking of, probably one of the contributing factors of Kelli being hunted down (I think) is because s/he had been defiling over the span of ~fourish hours before Sohl or anyone PKish logged in, and we kept track of it in the logs (and not all of us use autowalkers any more). Not that I'm excusing any actions or accusing anyone of timezone abuse (lol timezone abuse), but I think a lot of the more PK-oriented people in the game (and not just in Ashtan) tend to view defiling as an open invitation to tango.

Iocun

Mathonwy said:

The reason I like the writ system on the whole is because it tends to provide for more or less adequate conflict without the need for constant Divine direction, as well as the mechanisms for resolving that conflict. I tend to think it also cuts back on both lolpk on the Order's behalf and lolissuing on the defiler's (although, obviously, it's impossible to completely eliminate both).

My issue is mainly that the existence of writs will make some people fall back into a "I should do whatever's technically allowed" mindset, which can work as long as it's all that is in place. But as soon as it becomes paired with more open PK rules like we have them now, it can lead to things like someone first being hunted as per RP PK and then someone else in that order still thinks "oh, we also have a writ, so I can use that one up too", essentially causing a further attack beyond reasonable RP retaliation. And vice versa: people getting upset for being hunted whenever the order did not manage to obtain a writ (e.g. because the shrine was insta-dusted) because "that's what writs exist for!".

The writ system, while nice in theory, has some obvious gaps. Cases when it's clear that someone attacked a shrine, but no writ could be obtained. Or essentially forcing witnessers to potentially go up against whole groups of attackers, without being allowed to call for backup as well, because his order mates wouldn't have a writ and thus technically weren't allowed to join the fight. Such problems exist with all hardcoded PK mechanics. Since we got rid of such strictly defined PK rules now, it only makes sense to remove such mechanics entirely, or people will be much too tempted to pick-and-choose between two different PK resolution approaches and select whatever seems more useful for them at the moment.

Tanris

I'd like it more if shrines autologged something (call it retribution since you'd not actually have to witness anymore). That's then logged when any member of the order kills the person. Problem solved.

Antonius

@Tanris: That would perhaps be an improvement on the current system, though only works if people are regularly reading Order logs and paying attention to deathsight. I still think hard-coded systems such as Writs have absolutely no business existing in the current RP PK era, personally.

Mathonwy

Iocun said:

Mathonwy said:

The reason I like the writ system on the whole is because it tends to provide for more or less adequate conflict without the need for constant Divine direction, as well as the mechanisms for resolving that conflict. I tend to think it also cuts back on both lolpk on the Order's behalf and lolissuing on the defiler's (although, obviously, it's impossible to completely eliminate both).

My issue is mainly that the existence of writs will make some people fall back into a "I should do whatever's technically allowed" mindset, which can work as long as it's all that is in place. But as soon as it becomes paired with more open PK rules like we have them now, it can lead to things like someone first being hunted as per RP PK and then someone else in that order still thinks "oh, we also have a writ, so I can use that one up too", essentially causing a further attack beyond reasonable RP retaliation. And vice versa: people getting upset for being hunted whenever the order did not manage to obtain a writ (e.g. because the shrine was insta-dusted) because "that's what writs exist for!".

The writ system, while nice in theory, has some obvious gaps. Cases when it's clear that someone attacked a shrine, but no writ could be obtained. Or essentially forcing witnessers to potentially go up against whole groups of attackers, without being allowed to call for backup as well, because his order mates wouldn't have a writ and thus technically weren't allowed to join the fight. Such problems exist with all hardcoded PK mechanics. Since we got rid of such strictly defined PK rules now, it only makes sense to remove such mechanics entirely, or people will be much too tempted to pick-and-choose between two different PK resolution approaches and select whatever seems more useful for them at the moment.

There will always be people who will do whatever's technically allowed. That's not a fault of the technicalities, though, and removing them isn't going to magically instill a sense of restraint in the people who make it a point to toe the line.

Also, like I said, writs provide both a minimum level of conflict (i.e., fulfilling the writ/contract) and also a natural point of culmination to that particular conflict (the same), understood within the framework that defiling is opting into a PK conflict system, generally speaking. The approaches are different, certainly, but they're not exclusionary. What the addition of the new PK rules have done is allow for people to hunt down people who do instadust shrines and hide behind the technical limitations and so on.

Kelli

Mathonwy said:

Speaking of, probably one of the contributing factors of Kelli being hunted down (I think) is because s/he had been defiling over the span of ~fourish hours before Sohl or anyone PKish logged in, and we kept track of it in the logs (and not all of us use autowalkers any more). 

Yeah, that wasn't me. The two corpses I defiled with when Sohl jumped me were the first two defiles I've ever done.

Bluef

Mathonwy said:

There will always be people who will do whatever's technically allowed. That's not a fault of the technicalities, though, and removing them isn't going to magically instill a sense of restraint in the people who make it a point to toe the line.

Also, like I said, writs provide both a minimum level of conflict (i.e., fulfilling the writ/contract) and also a natural point of culmination to that particular conflict (the same), understood within the framework that defiling is opting into a PK conflict system, generally speaking. The approaches are different, certainly, but they're not exclusionary. What the addition of the new PK rules have done is allow for people to hunt down people who do instadust shrines and hide behind the technical limitations and so on.

I respectfully disagree. Writs do not do not provide a "natural point of culmination" to the event of defiling, when Orders are jumping in to kill defilers based on the current Rp-motivated PK system and then Marks are being hired to carry out the writ itself. They are overkill and unnecessary in a system that allows persons to kill or hire on anyone for pretty much anything they can conjure an Rp-justification for. It would be nice to see them turn into a way of tracking whether the defiler has been dealt with rather than a system that encourages both Order and champion/assassin revenge. 

Avto

At OP. This is exactly the reason how we got so complex PK rules that required a PHD degree in law in order to read them. Borderline acting based on rules is simply WRONG. That's why we have no rules. You defile, be ready to face consequences.

This game has grown up significantly that if you defile once you won't be rezzkilled to miniahood. There is huge player restraint put in every faction of this game to have enjoy every aspect of it, and gives room to those who occasionally want to participate in combat. If you don't want to die at all then don't act offensively and do not side with a faction that is one of the axis of conflict in Achaea.


@tanris really nice idea. Remove witness system. Order logs automatically list defilers (once only per shrine per person not to cause huge spams), from which orders can hire (without hardcoded system) a champion/assassin (if small order), or themselves hunt down defilers.

Kelli

Bluef said:

Mathonwy said:

There will always be people who will do whatever's technically allowed. That's not a fault of the technicalities, though, and removing them isn't going to magically instill a sense of restraint in the people who make it a point to toe the line.

Also, like I said, writs provide both a minimum level of conflict (i.e., fulfilling the writ/contract) and also a natural point of culmination to that particular conflict (the same), understood within the framework that defiling is opting into a PK conflict system, generally speaking. The approaches are different, certainly, but they're not exclusionary. What the addition of the new PK rules have done is allow for people to hunt down people who do instadust shrines and hide behind the technical limitations and so on.

I respectfully disagree. Writs do not do not provide a "natural point of culmination" to the event of defiling, when Orders are jumping in to kill defilers based on the current Rp-motivated PK system and then Marks are being hired to carry out the writ itself. They are overkill and unnecessary in a system that allows persons to kill or hire on anyone for pretty much anything they can conjure an Rp-justification for. It would be nice to see them turn into a way of tracking whether the defiler has been dealt with rather than a system that encourages both Order and champion/assassin revenge. 

It is a point of culmination, though its more player controlled than natural. Not to beat a dead horse, but in my situation, I was killed twice before the writ was fulfilled, on the third death. The PKers of the Order will actively engage the defilers until they feel they can push no farther, then oh, guess what? Still got a writ on you. 

The simple fact is that rules exist to keep unruly people in line. The one rule we have left no longer favors the defensive side of PK; it favors the offensive. It was a move that lightened the load on the admins, yeah, but I think in the long run, we're going to see more people griefed out of Achaea than we did before. Its already happened.

After all, we got an indepth look at how wonderfully responsible some Achaeans were during the Bal'met event.

Edit: Gah, quotes

Tvistor

Solution: Delete shrines.

Beatrice

Not knowing when a writ runs out is annoying. I defiled with two corpses with a heap of other people and only myself and one other got witnessed. Pretty sure the person with the writ won't duel me because I'm like..worst fighter ever, but still. I'd love to know.

Aliath

Bluef said:

Aliath said:

Bluef said:

2b. Someone may hold on to the writ for 74 IC hours and then yield it to the organization, at which time they can hire on you, giving the Mark another 75 IC hours to kill you. 

That is incorrect.

Not according to msgs from Lycon

Then Lycon is wrong or they changed it, just the writ counts down and once hired, the mark only have the remaining time, the timer isn't reset.

Bluef

Aliath said:

Bluef said:

Aliath said:

Bluef said:

2b. Someone may hold on to the writ for 74 IC hours and then yield it to the organization, at which time they can hire on you, giving the Mark another 75 IC hours to kill you. 

That is incorrect.

Not according to msgs from Lycon

Then Lycon is wrong or they changed it, just the writ counts down and once hired, the mark only have the remaining time, the timer isn't reset.

They must have changed it because someone held a writ on me 2 RL days, then yielded it. The Mark was hired and had 75 more IC hours to kill me.

Tanris

Bluef is correct. The writ resets on hire.

Idk what Kelli means by the Bal'met event, pretty sure that was handled very responsibly if we're talking about shrine corruption (I even got some interaction from the Mhaldorians corrupting).

Kelli

Was just referring to the level of responsibility in general. What people did with their demigod powers, etc.

Tecton

Yep, we'll be removing the writs system as part of a larger investigation/rework of shrines!