Shrine Defiling & Witnessing

Bluef

Alright, the basics of writs for those who haven't been impacted by them in the past. Writs are owned by organisations and pertain to individuals only. For each writ an organization has against an individual they may hire one assassin or champion. Writs are generated by shrine defiling and "other crimes" that can be witnessed (I am not aware of what besides shrine defiling can be witnessed though). This system is the only means of retribution open to organizations (per the Help File). They must obtain a writ for their organisation to take revenge.

Here's the problems as I see with this system as it pertains to shrine defiling:

1. The defiler receives no message that their act has been successfully witnessed by someone. 

2. The defiler receives no message that the witnesser has elected to either:

a) hold on to the writ to exact revenge themselves or

b) yield the writ to the order. 

2b. Someone may hold on to the writ for 74 IC hours and then yield it to the organization, at which time they can hire on you, giving the Mark another 75 IC hours to kill you. 

2c. You are essentially Open Pk to the person holding the writ, but too frequently this is stretched to mean "everyone in the Order" or "everyone who wants to jump you." 

3. Writs last for up to 75 IC days or 3 RL days, but there is no way to view outstanding writs against your character.

3b. It is completely unclear as to whether these 75 IC days work the same way as a contract, meaning that you must be in-realm and outside of a city for them to wane. 

4. Members of Orders are still killing people for defiling (or supposedly defiling) without witnessing the act even though the writ system clearly states that this is the only means of retribution open to organizations. 

Edit:

5. The one and only time I inquired about how this system was to work (about 4 RL months ago) I received a snarky message from Lycon stating that, "If you are unable or unwilling to keep track of and accept such consequences of defiling shrines, perhaps you should rethink your actions."  Um, I was checking to see how I should track the consequences when no system is in place to do so. 8 /

I've already heard a lot of chatter about changes to Marks and a move toward Lusternia's Avenger or Imperian's denizen assassin systems in Achaea, which might alleviate a lot of the problems with theft, lolzganksquads, etc., but what I'm wondering is does it seem to anyone else like the shrine defiling and witnessing system needs an overhaul too? 

Sylvance

I like your forum pic

Trey

I don't know if you have it gagged or something, but the defiler is most certainly notified. Sohl's nailed me a few times now when I've hit Babel shrines, and each time I've gotten notified that he witnessed it. If you mean a MESSAGE message, then no, it does not.

Bluef

Trey said:

I don't know if you have it gagged or something, but the defiler is most certainly notified. Sohl's nailed me a few times now when I've hit Babel shrines, and each time I've gotten notified that he witnessed it. If you mean a MESSAGE message, then no, it does not.

I've never received a message IC (and yeah I mean just any kind of scripted message not an actual MSG like you'd read in your inbox) for defiling and Bluef is a wanton defiler of Twilight shrines. 

Wondering what would possibly gag that....or if anyone has seen this and has the message so they could share it?

Trey

It's something like 'You have been witnessed in your act of defilement by Sohl' or something like that.

Bluef

Sylvance said:

I like your forum pic

Thanks.  

Sylvance

You bet!

Tagg

You do not see it if you're not in the room when witnessed.

Which explains why you've not seen it.

Dunn

That's false. I was out of room in New Hope earlier and Silas witnessed me AND I got notified of it.

Tagg

You're ruining my jokes, douchebag.

Katzchen

Yep, alwayd have had a message when I've been witnessed defiling.

Cooper

The writ system is out dated.

You do see when someone takes a writ on you.

You do know if they've kept it or not - if they haven't kept it, you'll be hired on.

If you defile a shrine, expect to be killed for it whether they get a writ or not. It's been that way for a long time, and it is a good thing.

Stop trying to play the 'neener neener neeener you can't touch me' game by hiding behind rules that you are misinterpreting.

"1. There must be a justifiable role-play reason for every attack and death." Defiling shrines is a perfect RP reason for someone to kill you.

Iocun

Cooper said:

The writ system is out dated.

This. It's a relic from the old PK rules and probably should be removed now for the sake of consistency. Your order's shrines being defiled is a justified RP cause to kill someone per the current rules anyways, so the writ system only serves to create complications and confusion.

Huyen

The only change defiling needs is for it to fail when you 'offer -corpse- to fefile' so you don't end up offering to @Babel instead of defiling and look like a schmuck. >.>

Bluef

Iocun said:

Cooper said:

The writ system is out dated.

This. It's a relic from the old PK rules and probably should be removed now for the sake of consistency. Your order's shrines being defiled is a justified RP cause to kill someone per the current rules anyways, so the writ system only serves to create complications and confusion.

Exactly. 

Bluef

Tagg said:

You do not see it if you're not in the room when witnessed.

Which explains why you've not seen it.

I've never seen a message in the room or outside it. Most recently I defiled in Tasur'ke a month or so ago and Deladan witnessed. No message received and I was standing in the room when he entered and supposedly witnessed multiple times (after the time limit too). I had no notion of how many writs he'd gathered up. He took 2 days worth of time to try to kill me repeatedly and then yielded it to the order who hired only once (so where were the multiple writs?). It left me with lots of questions, hence the thread.

Hermaldo

I agree, get rid of writs entirely.

Tanaar

Are you sure they actually WITNESSed you, or might they just be doing a "we know it was you, die now" thing? It's been RL years since I've been witnessed and hired on for a writ, so I don't remember whether it lets you know that you're being hired on for a writ or for some other reason.

Maybe the Darkwalkers are just trolling.

Bluef

Cooper said:

The writ system is out dated.

You do see when someone takes a writ on you.

I haven't seen this. 

You do know if they've kept it or not - if they haven't kept it, you'll be hired on.

Not always, no. They can keep it for up to 3 RL days and then hire too. 

If you defile a shrine, expect to be killed for it whether they get a writ or not. It's been that way for a long time, and it is a good thing. No shit, really? My point was that the Writ System explicitly states that you can't be killed for this "crime" without a writ, which is outdated given the new PK System. 

Stop trying to play the 'neener neener neeener you can't touch me' game by hiding behind rules that you are misinterpreting.

I'm not. I don't even know why or how you'd come to that conclusion based on what I've written here. Your animosity for me is really odd, Cooper. Did I drop you on your head when you were a child in a parallel reality and you just can't forgive me for it? 

"1. There must be a justifiable role-play reason for every attack and death." Defiling shrines is a perfect RP reason for someone to kill you. <-- No kidding. Except that the Writ system, that they left in place, explicitly states that "this writ is the only means of retribution open to organizations. Order members must obtain a writ for their organisation to take revenge." So my point was that they need to change HELP WRITS to reflect the new Pk System. It should just be that you can take a writ in order to yield it. If you decide to attack them, you can do so but that's a personal thing and would yield personal consequences. 

Bluef

So if WRITS and all that were re-worked with the new PK System in mind, what could it look like? 

I like the idea of specific Marks aligning themselves with Orders or Cities and truly becoming their Champion/Assassin. I've seen some games do this and essentially when a tournament or combat-related event comes up (whether it is an organizational duel to settle a conflict or something else) the Mark, who can only be aligned or allied with one organization, takes up their banner. 

Of course this means that people within these organizations want to get good at combat themselves or woo a powerful champion/assassin to their cause so that they have someone within their organization fighting for them, rather than just on their behalf so that the Rp-connection is stronger.

Anyway, the shrine powers haven't changed since Bluef was a kid either, so it might be cool to see those re-worked too. What are any of your ideas on this?

Bluef

Tanaar said:

Are you sure they actually WITNESSed you, or might they just be doing a "we know it was you, die now" thing? It's been RL years since I've been witnessed and hired on for a writ, so I don't remember whether it lets you know that you're being hired on for a writ or for some other reason. Maybe the Darkwalkers are just trolling.

Yeah, I'm sure. I issued myself because I had questions about the process (before the new PK System came into place). Someone claimed to have had multiple writs on me (confirmed via Issuing myself). I was in the room when they entered to witness but I never saw a thing. But then I never have seen a message for this -- does anyone have the copy for it? It makes me won't to set up a highlight and then test it out later. 

Iocun

Bluef said:

I like the idea of specific Marks aligning themselves with Orders or Cities and truly becoming their Champion/Assassin. I've seen some games do this and essentially when a tournament or combat-related event comes up (whether it is an organizational duel to settle a conflict or something else) the Mark, who can only be aligned or allied with one organization, takes up their banner. 

I don't see why we'd need anything hardcoded to happen for this. Houses, order, and cities can already declare someone to be their champion, if they wish, and have her/him represent them in duels and the like, and quite few organisations do or did do this anyways.

Bluef

Iocun said:

Bluef said:

I like the idea of specific Marks aligning themselves with Orders or Cities and truly becoming their Champion/Assassin. I've seen some games do this and essentially when a tournament or combat-related event comes up (whether it is an organizational duel to settle a conflict or something else) the Mark, who can only be aligned or allied with one organization, takes up their banner. 

I don't see why we'd need anything hardcoded to happen for this. Houses, order, and cities can already declare someone to be their champion, if they wish, and have her/him represent them in duels and the like, and quite few organisations do or did do this anyways.

It would be cool to have it listed on the HELP <city> or HELP <house> scroll though too. In general it would be nice for Marks to be more RP-related/integrated the way they are in some other games. 

Tanris

@Huyen:
All your essence belongs to us.

Iocun

Bluef said:

Iocun said:

Bluef said:

I like the idea of specific Marks aligning themselves with Orders or Cities and truly becoming their Champion/Assassin. I've seen some games do this and essentially when a tournament or combat-related event comes up (whether it is an organizational duel to settle a conflict or something else) the Mark, who can only be aligned or allied with one organization, takes up their banner. 

I don't see why we'd need anything hardcoded to happen for this. Houses, order, and cities can already declare someone to be their champion, if they wish, and have her/him represent them in duels and the like, and quite few organisations do or did do this anyways.

It would be cool to have it listed on the HELP <city> or HELP <house> scroll though too. In general it would be nice for Marks to be more RP-related/integrated the way they are in some other games. 

A house can already create a custom leadership position for it, which would make them show up on HOUSE STRUCTURE <house>. Wouldn't mind cities having the ability to customise some positions too.

Thinking of that, wouldn't mind houses having the ability to customise what positions showed up on HELP <house> either, to a moderate degree.

Cooper

Stop clinging on to that one line.

If you want to be technical, the line doesn't mention anything about what individual order members do to get revenge. It only states that the organization only gets credit through the writ system.

Either way, you are complaining about something that you clearly know isn't relevant anymore just because you've defiled and got killed without a writ.

Bluef

No. I'm not complaining. I'm saying that when writs first came out it was so that Orders had a way of tracking who defiled and then handing that off to someone to handle "legally." Today there is no reason for a Writ to exist unless an order wants to make the case that they will only hire on or assault persons who have absolutely, positively been caught defiling. 

When they changed the PK system they should have probably considered the numerous scrolls and systems that it would impact: Theft, Marks, Writs. This is one that has not yet been changed. The others (with the exception of the two Mark systems which still needed updating in terms of verbage about "cause" the last time I checked) have all been modified or deleted. 

Stop the hate @Cooper. It is misplaced and super weird. 

Cahin

74 IC hours = 185 OOC minutes?

Bluef

Writs last for up to 75 IC days or 3 RL days

But I have no idea what may stop their timing.

Tahquil

I though writs had to be given to the order, then to the chosen mark before being a valid contract.

Mannimar

Iocun said:

Thinking of that, wouldn't mind houses having the ability to customise what positions showed up on HELP <house> either, to a moderate degree.

 CONCEAL:           HOUSE CONCEAL <position>.

  Conceal up to 2 House positions from public view.

 REVEAL:            HOUSE REVEAL <position>.

  Reveal previously concealed House positions.