Shrine Defiling & Witnessing

Nellaundra

Y'know, when Bluef and Cooper both post in the same thread, my eyes just glaze over until I see the yellow posts.

Aliath

Bluef said:

2b. Someone may hold on to the writ for 74 IC hours and then yield it to the organization, at which time they can hire on you, giving the Mark another 75 IC hours to kill you. 

That is incorrect.

Antidas

I gotta say, a lot of the information written in the original post is just plain wrong. I suggest you actually do your research next time before posting, so that you don't make yourself look the fool. Can't expect anyone to take you seriously if your post looks like a joke

Bluef

Aliath said:

Bluef said:

2b. Someone may hold on to the writ for 74 IC hours and then yield it to the organization, at which time they can hire on you, giving the Mark another 75 IC hours to kill you. 

That is incorrect.

Not according to msgs from Lycon

Bluef

Tahquil said:

I though writs had to be given to the order, then to the chosen mark before being a valid contract.

Contract yes. If held they used to give "cause" to the individual non-Mark holder though.

Bluef

Antidas said:

I gotta say, a lot of the information written in the original post is just plain wrong. I suggest you actually do your research next time before posting, so that you don't make yourself look the fool. Can't expect anyone to take you seriously if your post looks like a joke

Do you expect people to think you're an ass? You post like one. 

I will never understand nonconstructive forum hate. 8 /

Silas

I like the writs system. Seeing the messages in logs from completed/failed writs/contracts is a good way of keeping track, and I'm fairly sure if you kill someone who defiles without a writ the admins will just lol if you get issued for it.

Also: offering to fefile should never be touched.

Rean

Didn't they get rid of this technical nonsense to avoid stuff like this? If you defile, be ready to get hunted down and killed for it - writ or no. Don't want to risk it without being able to wave a pk-rules textbook at your would-be slayers? Don't defile. It's that simple - don't complain, don't make threads about it while you try to find some technicality that protects you - just don't do it, or accept the possibility that you are going to die afterwards. I honestly don't see the issue (lol) here. 

Seriously, the RP of being hunted down for crimes against an order is rich, and you should look forward to it rather than worry about the experience or the "legality" of it - interactions like this only happen in games like Achaea. Enjoy it and stop worrying so much. If you lose? Go bashing for 20 minutes. Most people will RP with you if you start speaking to them ICly - try asking how they know you did it, why they are so religious, etc. Use your creativity and have fun with it, because you very likely won't get interactions like that in any other game.

Kelli

Rean said:

Didn't they get rid of this technical nonsense to avoid stuff like this? If you defile, be ready to get hunted down and killed for it - writ or no. Don't want to risk it without being able to wave a pk-rules textbook at your would-be slayers? Don't defile. It's that simple - don't complain, don't make threads about it while you try to find some technicality that protects you - just don't do it, or accept the possibility that you are going to die afterwards. I honestly don't see the issue (lol) here. 

I defiled a Babel shrine the other day, knowing full well I'd be attacked for it. I -think- I got the second corpse offered before Sohl and company arrived. I was witnessed, killed on the spot with no words spoken, even though I was completely alone. Killed again a short while later, then Sohl took the writ and killed me a third time. After that, I hung out in New Hope where I thought I would be safe. Sohl and company attacked again, though this could have been just a simple raid instead of targeting me, I don't know. 

Three deaths out of three attempt, or possibly 4, because of two zombies offered to defile. Yes, I wanted to defile, I knew that I would be attacked. I expected two kills, maximum. But most of all, what I was hoping for was a bit of RP about it. "Puny dwarf, you know not what you have brought down upon yourself" or "Your city has sunken into the Void, you have nothing left to live for, come join us" or even just a "wtf are you doing, you're biting off way more than you can handle."

Some Ashtani are never gonna give up on their opportunities to lolpwn people though, which is why the new PKRULES are eventually going to break down. Its going to result in more RP among others, yes, but this is a smaller instance of the "I could conceivably have a reason to kill you so I'm just gonna gank the shit out of you for the foreseeable future" problem that's going on.

At least with cause, you got x number of kills before you could be safe from attacks.

Rean

So, what did you do to let him know you were interested in the RP, other than expect him to read your mind? You can't expect him to just hope you're not going to run away at the sight of him as he tries to think of something clever to say. If you are completely silent, you're going to see Ashtan's bad boys as inconsiderate jerks. Try talking to them, though, you may find the experience rewarding and enjoyable - both to give sustenance to getting destroyed, and to get a little interaction beyond it. 

Kelli

Lol, you say that like I wasn't instantly in aeon.

Silas

Given that I have no idea who Kelli is, the second death at least there seems overkill. Kill her at the point of defiling, and once more for the writ, sure, but acting as if people are open PK for x amount of time after engaging in anything remotely resembling conflict will only ultimately stifle it.

Obviously for marks, or well-known and entrenched enemies of your orgs, this would be more relaxed because they know full well what they're letting themselves in for.

ETA: This isn't an indictment of Ashtan and whoever killed her (though we all know Sohl is a wrong 'un), just something that I think everybody would benefit from stepping back and considering once in a while.

Rean

Yeah, if it happened 3 or 4 times it's a little much, but Ashtan's raiders are pretty reasonable people. If it's getting too griefy, let them know - at the very worst, they'll say "lol what?" and you can tell Tanris and he'll make them raid 3v45 with him.

Tvistor

Nellaundra said:

Y'know, when Bluef and Cooper both post in the same thread, my eyes just glaze over until I see the yellow posts.

Am I the yellow posts? 0.0

Kelli

Rean said:

Yeah, if it happened 3 or 4 times it's a little much, but Ashtan's raiders are pretty reasonable people. If it's getting too griefy, let them know - at the very worst, they'll say "lol what?" and you can tell Tanris and he'll make them raid 3v45 with him.

That would be an appropriate solution if this wasn't something that happened time and time again. They're like semi-nice bullies: They push and push and push til you tell them to back off, then they look for someone else to do it to. Heck, even the administrators have had to tell them to stop before. If they were novices in Houses, they would be warned a few times then kicked out. Here. there's no overarching punishment for them. They push, get told to stop, wait a few days then try again. The forums are full of people ranting at Ashtani about overkill.

Bluef

Rean said:

don't complain, don't make threads about it while you try to find some technicality that protects you - just don't do it, or accept the possibility that you are going to die afterwards.

For the fiftieth freaking time....I'm not complaining about dying. I'm not looking for a technicality to protect myself. I defile A LOT. And when I do, I accept the consequences of it. What this thread is about is the inconsistency of the Writ System with the current PK System. The fact that Orders currently have a way to track writs but players do not. I'd love to be able to do WRITS and see a nice listing of who is holding them or has yielded them to Orders and the time left on each one (because it sure as hell seems like some Orders hire a full RL week after the writ was issued at times). 

I play all the IRE games pretty regularly. And what I've noticed, with all the recent changes in every game, is that Achaea is like the ugly little brother of IRE. Our new PK System was introduced without any consideration for whether some Help scrolls should be updated first to avoid confusion for new players or players new to PK -- some of those scrolls and systems, including the Mark and Writ systems -- still haven't been touched. I find a new one every day that refers to "PK cause," which really no longer exists. And when I think about all the lengths Shallam's Houses are having to go to just to become Houses again I feel as though it is rather silly, given the inconsistencies like this that continue to exist overall and in specific scrolls/systems like this one.

Tvistor

I get what you're saying. I would just like to point out that I believe some people here are arguing that the writ system just has no place in simplified PK. At most, it would be a way for Order members to track how many times they have killed a person to prevent it getting griefy (so seven people don't "just kill you once, I didn't know Jacob kill you already").

Bluef

Kelli said: But most of all, what I was hoping for was a bit of RP about it....

Some Ashtani are never gonna give up on their opportunities to lolpwn people though, which is why the new PKRULES are eventually going to break down. Its going to result in more RP among others, yes, but this is a smaller instance of the "I could conceivably have a reason to kill you so I'm just gonna gank the shit out of you for the foreseeable future" problem that's going on.

You bring up a really good point here -- the new Pk Rules state that you have to let the person know why you're killing them. It isn't supposed to be an assumption made by the victim like "Oh, I looked funny at Sohl's momma and he came to kill me for it." It is supposed to be explicit so that RP is encouraged. Sure, many times I know exactly why I'm being attacked but not always and I haven't seen any RP with any of this except from @Vayne, who I have to give credit for the attempt to make it about more than Hashani lolganking at times. I think the admins were just tired of BS and decided "We out! Take your crying to your mommas, Achaeans!" If they just enforced this oneeee little thing though, the PK environment would be so much more fun and full of RP. I'd love to have conversations with people about why they're defending or involved in their religious orders, etc. but honestly @Rean's suggestion that if you start speaking to them ICly doesn't have much effect and won't unless a level of RP is enforced around PK as an activity with more consistency. 

Cooper

Get ready for a big one, people.

I assumed since you posted this shortly after heartstopping and dying due to defiling, that this was a woe is me bitching thread.

I might have been wrong.

You heard it here first, folks.

Bluef

Tvistor said:

I get what you're saying. I would just like to point out that I believe some people here are arguing that the writ system just has no place in simplified PK. At most, it would be a way for Order members to track how many times they have killed a person to prevent it getting griefy (so seven people don't "just kill you once, I didn't know Jacob kill you already").

I totally agree with this -- it has no place in the simplified PK system. And yeah, I like the way it lets our Order track yielded and completed writs because it shows who is bothering to witness, defend, and then which Marks to hire for fast completion upon yielding. What I don't like is not being able to do WRITS myself and see who is holding on to those bad boys waiting to hire (or how many they are holding). And like I've said before, Bluef has defiled sooooo many times and never seen any in-game message about being witnessed that it makes me wonder if the system is somewhat downright broken in ways. 

Dunn

Tagg said:

You're ruining my jokes, douchebag.

The only joke is you leaving battlements to defile, bro.


Also, if I see you dust a shrine and I don't get a witness, I am still going to kill you. RP reason and sich.

Bluef

Cooper said:

Get ready for a big one, people.

I assumed since you posted this shortly after heartstopping and dying due to defiling, that this was a woe is me bitching thread.

I might have been wrong.

You heard it here first, folks.

Thanks, Cooper. I need to print and frame this comment. Bolded part blown up to maximum fontage. 

Ahhhh. Yeah, I heartstopped once yesterday  in a middle of a fight with Dodder due to frustration and lag, but that fight was not inspired by defiling. He's just been after me since I assisted Kaie a few months back when he got jumped out of the blue and..I may have been drinking something that wasn't deception brew and feeling particularly grinchy at the time. : p

Tvistor

Cooper's comment was photoshopped. You can tell because of the pixels  Cooper would never do that. I've seen a great many posts in my time, and you can tell because of the possible admission of being wrong.

Corbeaux

@Kelli - To be fair, you shouldn't expect anyone to break out into an epic monologue while you defile a shrine. You'd be hard pressed to find any organization that simply emotes at you or starts a conversation while you're attempting to start a conflict of that nature. When you defile, it is assumed that you know and have been taught what you're doing and are prepared to either run or fight. It isn't the start of a brand new "rp" session - you're all ready in the role of a follower of Light defiling a shrine to the God of Oblivion. His role, as an Ashtani mark and Nihilist warrior, is to immediately cut you down as you attempt to harm the essence of his god.

That being said, those conversations and contacts that you were hoping for often come before or after such engagements. After you retreated to New Hope, that might have been a good time to telepathically belittle him as a slave of Chaos or the like (something more original, of course), showing him that you want to engage beyond mere shrine defiling/combat conflict. It goes both ways, and often, one miscue can be the difference between a positive engagement or not.

Antonius

Writs should just be done away with. If you're an enemy of the Order stood in the room with a shrine that's just been defiled you should expect to die (at the very least be attacked) if people show up to defend it. However, that death (or deaths, in the case of a starburst) should also be the end of it.

What writs end up doing now is increasing the number of times that people die for single acts. They get attacked and/or killed for defiling because that's a legitimate roleplay reason to kill somebody, then they get killed again because somebody has a writ and I guess people see that hard-coded cause as a legitimate roleplay reason as well. It's an unnecessary system in an era when the very concept of "cause" is supposed to be gone.

Sohl

I don't know who Kelli is, nor do I remember PK'ing someone with that name so many times, but if we did go overboard with the hunting then I apologize.

Corbeaux is exactly right about the RP.

Kelli

@Corbeaux I wasn't expecting an epic monologue by any means. I was expecting, at the very least, a "wtf are you doing, kid?" I'm not an @Cooper, or an @Silas. I expected a "hey, this no-name chick is defiling, let's see what she thinks she's doing." After the first death, it was okay. So they're not big into enemy RP, whatever. Second death was iffy, considering i was teamed both times. I mean, in this entire conflict, I never got an offensive attack off. Spam a direction and hope I can walk away. Then, the third time I reckon @Sohl looked at the writ and was like oh, still haven't killed her yet. Better go do that. 

I'm 100% ok with the deaths if something -meaningful- came out of it, and I'm 100% ok with two of the deaths anyways, even though hell, I only offered 2 zombies. Its the third death, writ or no, along with the teaming and not a single word being said that is wrong. PK should always have RP associated with it, beyond "Technically I can kill you." this is worse than cause counting to me. 

Tanris

@Kelli:
No idea who you are, but I can say with absolute assurity if we were on New Hope we weren't after you. Your description of events makes me think the following:
1. You were witnessed by a group.
2. They killed you (if you expect absolutely any org to stop and emote at you mid defile, you're going to be disappointed. The banter comes afterwards, not during).
3. You were killed by someone without the writ.
4. Sohl took the writ and killed you.

I have no idea what the middle deaths about, but I tend to not judge until I hear both sides of things, and given the sweeping generalisations in your post I'm inclined to think there's something more to it. In addition, I feel the need to address your accusations about having admin tell us to back off:
Has happened maybe 3-4 times over five years between all of our players that I am aware of (us being the core group of Ashtani I assume you're addressing). You might actually want to consider how little that actually is before slinging mud (protip: most of those five weren't actually us being told to back off, just clarification on policy).

Babel's order is defiled by tons of people on a daily basis. It is routine for us at this point: the vast majority of those individuals are going to try to drop the shrine as quickly as possible and bail, or its in a large group. We aren't going to sit around on the off chance you're one of the few that for some strange reason will stop to taunt us mid defile and open a dialogue. If you want interaction, either retreat and taunt or do it after you get done embracing.

As for the initial point, the point about someone dying to someone without the writ and then dying again (when it should really be resolved) is a legitimate one, and an obvious failing of the writs system under the new rules.

Sohl

You are one of a very long list of people who defile. While I support your desire for RP, and you'll find Babblers (teehee) are always willing to oblige, you're generally going to have to do something a tad more interesting than defiling once and then sitting in New Hope to get it (even just sending a tell like Corb said).

Kelli

@Sohl try to look at it from my side:

I get jumped by you and I think Manifest while I was defiling. Died. I'm thinking ok, death was earned.

I get jumped by Jarrod and Manifest 10 minutes later. Died. I'm thinking ok, death was expected.

I get jumped by you and maybe someone else(at this point I don't even remember. Died. I'm thinking wtf, this isn't going to end. 

I go to New Hope for the first time since defiling. 5 minutes later, you're in the room. At this point I'm thinking OMG, I'm just gonna be open PK forever.

In none of that was there any indication of an attitude different from what is popularly believed of Ashtani: that'll you'll PK, no matter who, how, or what's involved.

Disclaimer: Some of the jumpers may not be in the correct positions. I know that Sohl, Manifest, and Jarrod were all a part of it. I know that Sohl was at my first and third death. That's about it, can't remember through the walls of text.