Active Orders?

Cailin

Iloisee said:

Cailin said:

I keep telling myself I won't derail this post, but seeing as how it's already well derailed...

Thanks for the encouragement, @Caelan and @Iloisee. I think it probably DOES have a lot to do with the time of day I log in. Things are always really quiet in the US morning, seems like even the people who are logged in aren't very talkative. I didn't even know the Scion ritual happened. Although, we still don't have an MoC or HR, someone halp!

I'm glad to hear the Scion house is doing really well. I've sometimes considered switching to that house to get more into oration/nature theology, along with ritualism. 

Yeah I'm totally encouraging the derailment since it came up. 😁 I don't know anything about your current House, but think of it this way... Caelan and the other Scions can guide you even if you're not a Scion. I'm sure they would love to have you, and if you want to, you should go! But active, engaged players are the only way to rejuvenate the Kin. Respect your own limits, but consider that your energy and zeal could be exactly what the House needs. Chase a leadership role, maybe! 

If the Kin is stagnating, they need to analyze their policies and procedures and cut out what's not working. Build on what is. The Scions and the Kin are fighting for the same village -- encourage collaboration. Establish the Kin's focus and role in the village. An active, moving House will attract a Patron. Two active, collaborating Houses will attract a city Patron. 

I don't believe Eleusis is without a Divine because of its history exclusively. I think would-be Divines don't know what they'd do with Eleusis -and- don't want a repeat of this infamous Gaia/Artemis situation.

I would love to be High Ritualist again, but back when I was, it was interfering with RL too much and I had to quit everything and go dormant. I absolutely love playing Achaea, and I have to be super careful not to get carried away and get into stuff too much. Lol. I'm trying to be good this time so I don't have to leave again. 

Penwize

I want to touch on something that was mentioned a little while back because it's a sentiment that I heard certain cliques within Eleusis speak of a lot but never really understood.  Who exactly were the "hardcore PKers" that Gaia picked as her chosen few?  From what I understand, her order was tiny, and I would not put anyone in her order among even the top PKers at the time (although don't get me wrong, Ellodin was mighty fine at it, he just wasn't all that active in the PK scene that I remember.)  Her order always struck me as the purist RPer types, which are usually not the same people as the PKer crowd. 

Artemis' order had me and Rangor as leads, so I would understand that statement about Artemis, but barely anyone says Artemis catered only to the PK crowd.  Mostly because Artemis didn't, she was pretty great at helping people take her ideals into non-PK roles, and the order had plenty of people who were middling at best at PK but did other things.

Asmodron

Caelan said:

Krizal said:

Caelan said:

@Krizal when I tracked in you were there. So... numerically, 4 = 4 is not that hard to establish. The fact that until I have time to fix my curing I am a paper tiger means even with 3 v 3+ me.. pretty even. I mean, I died to being lusted FFS.

@Caelan not that it really matters, but when I logged in this is what preeminence looked like.

You cast your will out across the land, surveying all that stand within shadow's embrace.

You sense Rangor at A vaulted hall.

You sense Garros at A vaulted hall.

You sense Myna at A vaulted hall.

You sense Miriew at A vaulted hall.

You sense Astarod at A vaulted hall.

You sense Marcella at The Crossroads.

You sense Caelan at A vaulted hall.

You sense Argwin at Parade of the Founders, north of Founders' Monument.

You located 8 subjects.

Had to be just as I tracked in and landed (before I did Fullsense) then. Good timing. But yeah not that it matters. You guys did pretty good for a minute there. Not slamming you guys at all. 

Lol

Kyrra

@Penwize they had Alrena as well, no?

Caelan

Asmodron said:

Caelan said:

Had to be just as I tracked in and landed (before I did Fullsense) then. Good timing. But yeah not that it matters. You guys did pretty good for a minute there. Not slamming you guys at all. 

Lol

That sums up what happens when I see offering an opinion. But in this case, I never slammed Krizal and them for their defense. At least they fought despite not having 3:1 odds.

Astarod

Honestly, seeing them defend was cool. Some of the cringe-worthy harassment of 18 year olds in tells was kinda uncalled for, but the bigger portion of the hashani combatant playerbase seems to be taking these blows and victories with stride- because Hashani are both winning and losing. It's true!

Athelas

Penwize said:

"hardcore PKers"

@Penwize

I used the term to mean "people who want to PK 24/7" not "People who are good at PK". If I wanted to say "people who are good at PK" I would rather use a phrase like "elite PKers"

To put it another way:

Think about the latest Twins event, Cooper falls in one category, Proficy in another.

Kiet

Athelas said:

Penwize said:

"hardcore PKers"

@Penwize

I used the term to mean "people who want to PK 24/7" not "People who are good at PK". If I wanted to say "people who are good at PK" I would rather use a phrase like "elite PKers"

To put it another way:

Think about the latest Twins event, Cooper falls in one category, Proficy in another.

Are you seriously going to tell me Yae, of all people, wants to pk 24/7? You are revising history and twisting it to fit your narrative, here.

By the time Ellodin was Gaian, his regular PKing period was long over, and he spent more time writing thousands of words for Eleusis than actively PKing. Thousands of words, mind you, that the 'peaceful' people never managed to match, which is part of the problem.

These two were some of the most prominent Gaians, and neither of them really spent much time PKing. Instead, they contributed endlessly through writing and roleplay and ritualism and all the things that the 'anti-pk' crowd tends to claim are their non-combat ways of contributing. Once they lost these 'hardcore PKer' Gaians, this kind of stuff dried up for literally years in Eleusis.

I'm really trying to not attack you, but you are being completely dishonest with either yourself or us, here. You can't seriously argue the things you're saying while also sticking to the facts or pointing out specific examples--which is why, I imagine, you don't actually mention individual people or scenarios. Much of Eleusis's problem was that there was a manufactured problem ("the gaians and the scions just want us to pk all the time!") that led to an overreaction in an attempt to 'correct' it. When confronted with demands to actually provide examples, they never seemed to exist, and still don't.

Let's not forget, for instance, that this 'hardcore PKer' was one of the biggest contributors to the Asterian Restoration--an entirely peaceful way of interacting with the wider world. It was the 'hardcore PK' Gaians that completely peacefully converted Genji towards worshiping Nature.

The claim was often that the Gaians/Scions/whatever other scapegoat were trying to isolate Eleusis completely from the outside world and provoking everyone to hate them, but the reality is that they were the ones actually interacting with the outside world, while much of Eleusis was (and is) happy to forget the rest of the world exists.

I suspect, instead, that this sentiment was just another expression of one that is common in all Achaean orgs: that these other people getting recognition, getting noticed by gods, etc. are all doing it through some kind of 'unfair' method. It's not because they role-play well, because they produce excellent work. It's because they're in cliques/can pk/have some other kind of advantage that doesn't require recognizing that they are actually just talented.

Skye

At the height of my player influence, I'd been Oakstone Hierophant, Leath-ri (they were previously separate appointments), even a second of command in the House.

By the time I left Eleusis (this was pre-Ren) but circa the return of Gaia, I had no active God, no particular attention from anyone administratively, I didn't PK because complex offence systems and changes to combat had basically overtaken what I was capable of dealing with on a basic defence system and manual offence and was basically all but in retirement, so you can take my opinion as someone who had basically washed their hands of the inner workings of the city and the game in general. Actually I wrote something much longer and with a lot more vitriol but I think I'm just going to settle for this: 

I had to quit Eleusis because just being in the city and the Sylvans was actually making me feel physically sick to the core. I logged in neutral and often logged out angry and disgusted because even looking at my HWHO filled me with abject disappointment. People better than me tried so hard to make a difference and they too couldn't take it anymore. If it were really 'different' in any way (as some players are wont to defend the situation), I don't think any of those people would have left. They were made of stronger stuff than I was. 

Caelan

Kiet said:

The claim was often that the Gaians/Scions/whatever other scapegoat were trying to isolate Eleusis completely from the outside world and provoking everyone to hate them, but the reality is that they were the ones actually interacting with the outside world, while much of Eleusis was (and is) happy to forget the rest of the world exists.

I suspect, instead, that this sentiment was just another expression of one that is common in all Achaean orgs: that these other people getting recognition, getting noticed by gods, etc. are all doing it through some kind of 'unfair' method. It's not because they role-play well, because they produce excellent work. It's because they're in cliques/can pk/have some other kind of advantage that doesn't require recognizing that they are actually just talented.

A lot of what you mention here is stuff I was dormant for, and came back at the tail end of after 5 years. I couldn't believe it had gone on that long and I am half glad I missed it, half mad I did - but then, I had juuuust had that same fight in Shallam which pushed me to dormancy (after the Someone booting the entire Aegean Army we built).  But the irony is, I was just accused of being insular and only wanting to fight (despite all evidence to the contrary).  And I will leave it at that.

Lenn

"but the reality is that they were the ones actually interacting with the outside world, while much of Eleusis was (and is) happy to forget the rest of the world exists."

This is false and slightly absurd.

[Deleted User]

It's not really that far from the truth. At least during the time period Kiet is talking about. A lot of Eleusis were too busy fighting amongst themselves, and trying to stop the Scions from doing anything, than do anything actually useful. It's why a number of people left entirely.

Farrah

I feel like Eleusis (that segment of Eleusis anyway) uses the word "pk" to mean "conflict." Like if you go condemn other people vocally, you are pking. You are only not pking if you are cuddleromping in Eleusis, dousing fires, and loving everyone.

This is less about pk than it is about being ideologically opposed to others and not the loveable, cuddly do-no-wrong-ers. It's a poor use of terms though. A lot of non-pk activities absolutely factor into a "destroy all these false cities!" ideology.

Lenn

The same PK crowd who made a party target call trigger a mandatory novice task?

Or who bitched and moaned about Mhaldorians breaking into my house while I was running an event, despite never teaching a single thing about housing security?

By the way, they bitched on the city channel where Artemis joined in, and in the city news too.

I wonder why they weren't popular.

Kiet

The person (or at least one of the people) involved in the party call thing is, I'm fairly sure, both still in Eleusis and one of the most popular Eleusians to ever exist, so I'm unsure what your point is.

It is possible, and maybe likely, that you are complaining about entirely different people in general, but the people you're trying to call 'unpopular', if you mean the gaians and the 'pk crowd' that wasn't actually that much about pk are basically beloved in every other city of the game, so that is an odd angle to try and demean them from.

This is, of course, ignoring how pointless it is to try and say someone was bad because they weren't popular, which is a strange perspective to take.

Ryx

I don't have anything of substance to add, but I just wanted to say as a new player that I love Eleusis and the Scions and I'm having a great time. I wasn't sure about Achaea at first but I've had a wonderful experience with you guys and that's what's kept me playing. I hope that as I get up in levels and get through my tasks I'll be able to give back.

I would love to see a Eleusis divine one day.

Kiet

That's great to hear! From what Caelan's posted Eleusis has changed since the time period we're talking about and the Scions especially seem to be urging on improvement, so I wouldn't get discouraged just because older players were unsatisfied years ago.

Shub

I too might feel irritated to be rudely pushed into doing a bunch of stuff that didn't interest me, thankfully most of the game is interesting (quest verbiage guessing still sucks). The way novice motivation works in Targ was most enjoyable to me and never felt forced. Mandatory tedium is not fun, you can still see remnants of peoples' rants against the game's various old guild progressions scattered across the web which must have been way worse because they could yank your skills away and cause lesson loss. Getting to a competitive level combat is a long road and I can sympathize with people that don't enjoy it, I'm still not very good at it yet but I'm working on it. 'Required essays' were a popular complaint that I'm determined not to cause again in my current role. Oddly enough the slave experience in Mhaldor didn't feel all that forceful (I gave it a try briefly during Shub's dormancy early last year, I especially liked the emphasis they put on anti-theft).

The Targ novice tasks were mostly an orientation to the city and beleif system, running around meeting different denizens and learning stuff, a quiz on the ideology, pick a house, and a brief assesment that felt more like the assesor was trying to get to know me than it did a test, I had to tweak my curing to work a little better but that was it. I thought it was a well designed novice experience.

Through the process you had a city full of exemplary characters addressing the various world crises of the day (I was born right after second black wave and completed Minia around the time of the Chaos Wedding) that really conveyed this sense of urgency that made us all want to step up and contribute. There was never 'read this book' 'kill these baddies' 'say 15 hail Auroras' but there was 'understand the tenets,' 'be ready to defend the city' which inevitably led you towards consulting the books and trying out combat. The mood was that we were up against the wall, tasked with an urgent mission, and needed to grow up fast. Very little hand holding, lots of individual drive required, helpful elders when needed.

There was also maybe a little implied guilt for not pulling enough weight. The Lord once chastised the city for insufficiently caring about Haldoran and it felt awful but there was no talkback from anyone because he was right. The lore was too dense for noobshub to understand what was going on at the time and I didn't know how about news search, so I dove headfirst into the library and have pretty much been there ever since. A severe sounding news post went to the city that demanded us to do better in all areas, soonafter we had combatants leading prayers and theologians practicing in the arena and I think it turned out pretty well for us. Since that incident I've come to understand that standards at Targ are high, the Lord is rarely pleased and there is always more to be done. Somehow despite all of that you never feel obligated, you just badly want to get better, the needs are so deep and varied that almost anyone can be useful and appreciated as long as they are excellent at what they do. Its a great environment and I think the divine nudges made a lot of that possible. I suspect the orders are similarly high-standard. Maybe that vibe isn't appropriate for the other cities but it works well for Targ. I hope you guys find something that works well for you.

Outside of Targ, I must admit that I admire whatever it is team Neraeos has going on, there are frequent interesting looking triton related deathsights and world emotes. I bet Vastar and Aegis do cool stuff with their people too.

Archaeon

Targ's tasks suck.  The scroll is a PAIN IN THE DICK, and is so shitty that I have needed to literally sit with a novice and convince her to finish it, rather than quit.  

The 'go to the academy and touch the weapon rack' one is rough too.  Having one or two messages would be fine, but the 5 minute long stories get boring, fast. 

That being said, the rest are pretty decent.  

Adrik

Novices constantly mess up one of the tasks in targ because. Idk. they copy paste the thing and line break kills them.

The rack task sucks but got reworked for Luminai, iirc.

Targ only really has 2 houses, with the third being a glorified information clan. I kind of wish we had burned the Luminai when we had the chance.

Numira

I liked that task, if I am thinking of the correct one and what’s wrong with stories?  I like those too.

Torinn

I liked it too lol.  I enjoyed reading the lore 

Jiraishin

Adrik said:

Novices constantly mess up one of the tasks in targ because. Idk. they copy paste the thing and line break kills them.

The rack task sucks but got reworked for Luminai, iirc.

Targ only really has 2 houses, with the third being a glorified information clan. I kind of wish we had burned the Luminai when we had the chance.

You take that back.

Also, I actually liked the rack task, and particularly the Luminai story. Even made it into my IC journal.

Adrik

It takes forever.

Athelas

Kiet said:

Are you seriously going to tell me Yae, of all people, wants to pk 24/7?

Other than the name Gaia, did I mention ANY NAMES? ANYWHERE?

Farrah said:

This is less about pk than it is about being ideologically opposed to others and not the loveable, cuddly do-no-wrong-ers.

I have to admit, that is actually a damn good way of stating it. There's no denying that a significant portion of the Eleusian player base were more interested in the care-bear aspects of the community. The problem arose because they were literally being told, in many cases to their faces, that they were third or fourth class citizens.

There are ways of getting the care-bear players on the battle-field and fighting. Telling them off is not one of those ways.

The harsh reality is, no matter how much RP motivation you provide: The Player Elects What Game They Are Going To Play!

The ideologies being pushed at the time, were so far out of tune with the majority of Eleusian players, that they simply ignored it and continued playing the way they wanted to play.

Farrah

Adrik said:

It takes forever.

If you didn't retire and do it over again it wouldn't be boring. I loved that task when I was a novice. It gives you a feel for what the atmosphere is intended to be right off the bat in an interesting way.

Torrent

As an Eleusian for a long time before the Ren and during the Gaia/Artemis debacle. I can say that being without a Patron, Eleusis has turned a complete 180. There are a lot of people who are working there butts off to make Eleusis and the Nature faction work. I defintely can say that the Scions are! I mean when you have to perform a ritual at 4 am in the morning on very little sleep and no one is around who can do it, you make sure to take up the reigns and do it for the betterment of the game. The Scions have worked there butt off to bring Aegis in as patron of which we were so proud to be able to do that!! The RP is solid in Eleusis but there is always people who want to water it down to meet there own goals, in this case the typical tree hugger lets all live in love and happiness and not oppose cities. What a lot of people don't understand is that you can do that as well as @Farrah said. Take the aim of the goal and work with it. I can tell you right now that if a Gaia or an Artemis showed up right now, I will literally behead anyone in the village if they try to drive them out! It takes work and a lot of deciation to be a god in this game and they deserve our respect for it! Especially one that embodies Nature since we cannot do anything with Nature till we have one.

P.S. @Aegis YOU ARE SO VERY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for taking upon yourself to be a Patron to a part of the a community that had the stigma of driving off Patrons. You are literally the best and thank you so much for being the first god since the debacle to step foot inside the Patron pool of Eleusis!!!!! I cannot thank you enough for that and it literally means the world to not only myself but others in the Scions as well!!! Thank you!!!

Deziny

Torrent said:

P.S. @Aegis YOU ARE SO VERY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for taking upon yourself to be a Patron to a part of the a community that had the stigma of driving off Patrons. You are literally the best and thank you so much for being the first god since the debacle to step foot inside the Patron pool of Eleusis!!!!! I cannot thank you enough for that and it literally means the world to not only myself but others in the Scions as well!!! Thank you!!!

Ten thousand times this

Ryx said:

I don't have anything of substance to add, but I just wanted to say as a new player that I love Eleusis and the Scions and I'm having a great time. I wasn't sure about Achaea at first but I've had a wonderful experience with you guys and that's what's kept me playing. I hope that as I get up in levels and get through my tasks I'll be able to give back.

I would love to see a Eleusis divine one day.

As a current Eleusis player and a Scion, I love @Ryx and I'm pretty excited to get him involved! I'm so glad you're having fun. I am too .

Caelan

Athelas said:

There are ways of getting the care-bear players on the battle-field and fighting. Telling them off is not one of those ways.

You mean like how we were able to in Shallam? Oh, wait ...

Torrent said:

As an Eleusian for a long time before the Ren and during the Gaia/Artemis debacle. I can say that being without a Patron, Eleusis has turned a complete 180. There are a lot of people who are working there butts off to make Eleusis and the Nature faction work. I defintely can say that the Scions are! I mean when you have to perform a ritual at 4 am in the morning on very little sleep and no one is around who can do it, you make sure to take up the reigns and do it for the betterment of the game. The Scions have worked there butt off to bring Aegis in as patron of which we were so proud to be able to do that!! The RP is solid in Eleusis but there is always people who want to water it down to meet there own goals, in this case the typical tree hugger lets all live in love and happiness and not oppose cities. What a lot of people don't understand is that you can do that as well as @Farrah said. Take the aim of the goal and work with it. I can tell you right now that if a Gaia or an Artemis showed up right now, I will literally behead anyone in the village if they try to drive them out! It takes work and a lot of deciation to be a god in this game and they deserve our respect for it! Especially one that embodies Nature since we cannot do anything with Nature till we have one.

P.S. @Aegis YOU ARE SO VERY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for taking upon yourself to be a Patron to a part of the a community that had the stigma of driving off Patrons. You are literally the best and thank you so much for being the first god since the debacle to step foot inside the Patron pool of Eleusis!!!!! I cannot thank you enough for that and it literally means the world to not only myself but others in the Scions as well!!! Thank you!!!

This guy... this guy gets it.  Also, pretty sure the majority of the Scions would behead anyone trying to fuck up a Nature Divine at this point, which actually makes me pretty damn happy for a number of reasons. And yeah, I know the internal debate of @Aegis had to be tiring.. it took a while to prove ourselves and I just hope we keep doing it.

And just because they don't get it much in game..  The vast majority of us appreciate you, Aegis, and all that you are trying to help us do, and for just being pretty damn awesome in general.  Totally cooler than say.. a @Sartan or something.  Who just deletes denizens?! WHO DOES THAT?! Seriously, the game is always more fun with more Divine around and I'm happy to see so many now compared to before.  And they are all doing good things so we ALL appreciate what you do, despite the petty pissing and moaning here.

Aegoth

Eleusis was veeeeeeery close to having Sartan as a patron. Thats all I can say