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  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,953 @ - Epic Achaean
    Old Gaia... original OG Gaia..  was pretty dismissive of anything but direct assaults on the forests.  Oakstone may have banhammered the hell out of people enough that she didnt have to worry though.  But having seen some of the mid-Gaia..  would very much like a new Gaia for Eleusis. 

    But you can't be nonchalant about stuff like your ideals towards Nature. If so, no Gaia will want to return. And yes.. Nature needs a Gaia. More than any other.

  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,030 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    “Please don’t give us divine, we don’t like that divine do divine things.”

    Don’t speak on behalf of eleusis again IMO. You are just asking for the city to be shallam’d with that mindset.

    Sometimes the best things to do is start over.
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    O.M.G.

    Everyone that criticised my post. Please, take the time to re-read it.

    Did I say: Don't give us nature divine? Or did I ask for Demeter or Lupus perhaps?
    Did I say: I do not appreciate the effort admin put into gods? Or did I say that Artemis and Gaia was a mistake?

    With Artemis and Gaia at the helm, things were being said and done that left little room for interpretation: hard-core combatants were the only ones considered anything other than pathetic losers.

    That kind of Divine attitude works in Mhaldor, it does not work in Eleusis!

    Motivating Mhaldor players can justifiably be done with hate and anger. The average Eleusian player however, responds very negatively to that kind of thing.

    So, when Gaia stood at Atop and started screaming at all Eleusis, telling them that they all suck and that only one or two were even worth her consideration, the whole Eleusian community fell to pieces. In that one move, Gaia lost a tremendous amount of respect, credibility and support.

    And that was just one incident in a whole host of incidents that divided the player base in Eleusis and sent it spiralling for a ball of wax. The Eleusian community became fractured and a massive divide formed between those who PvP and those who don't.

    An Eleusian Patron/Matron that wants to be successful, will have to understand that getting the average Eleusian into action, requires Love as the core emotional motivator. Trying to get that with fear, hate or anger as a core motivator, has and will fail!

    I've tested this, time and again: If you want Eleusians to band together and kick ass in a team effort, pull on their heart strings. Forget about ideology and/or gods, go for the feels and you'll get an overwhelming response.
    Lenn
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 7
    Athelas said:
    O.M.G.

    Everyone that criticised my post. Please, take the time to re-read it.



    I did, it's still wrong.

    Did I say: Don't give us nature divine? Or did I ask for Demeter or Lupus perhaps?
    Did I say: I do not appreciate the effort admin put into gods? Or did I say that Artemis and Gaia was a mistake?

    With Artemis and Gaia at the helm, things were being said and done that left little room for interpretation: hard-core combatants were the only ones considered anything other than pathetic losers.
    You do realise that the game is built on conflict, right? If you think they were ONLY pushing PK conflict, it's because the other wings of conflict generation were abhorrently lazy. Neraeos hates atavians, which is a form of conflict that can be without PK completely. Same with Mhaldor's war with Moghedu. If what you want is "super happy fun time peace land" You can forego any faction whatsoever. 

    That kind of Divine attitude works in Mhaldor, it does not work in Eleusis!

    Motivating Mhaldor players can justifiably be done with hate and anger. The average Eleusian player however, responds very negatively to that kind of thing.

    So, when Gaia stood at Atop and started screaming at all Eleusis, telling them that they all suck and that only one or two were even worth her consideration, the whole Eleusian community fell to pieces. In that one move, Gaia lost a tremendous amount of respect, credibility and support.


    Did you think that, potentially, she had tried being supportive, but the community of Eleusis, for the most part, just did shit fuck all? Instead of looking outwards for fixes, look inwards. Even when I was briefly in eleusis it was an abhorrent shitfight between PK and non-PK, which could have been fixed by non-PK pushing harder conflict in proselytising, teaching, instigation. If you don't even want to take part in city defense, once again, why are you even IN a city, and worst case, you can just /journal.

    Also, Mhaldor isn't motivated by "hate and anger", You see it that way because you have your blinders on. Mhaldor, just like any city, is internally spurred with Divine oversight to ensure our direction is the way the Gods want it to be. If Gaia and Artemis want Eleusis' nature to be rampant growth and domination of city dwellers, guess what, that's what Eleusis' nature is gonna be. You can leave the city if you disagree with it.


    Athelas said:
    And that was just one incident in a whole host of incidents that divided the player base in Eleusis and sent it spiralling for a ball of wax. The Eleusian community became fractured and a massive divide formed between those who PvP and those who don't.

    An Eleusian Patron/Matron that wants to be successful, will have to understand that getting the average Eleusian into action, requires Love as the core emotional motivator. Trying to get that with fear, hate or anger as a core motivator, has and will fail!

    I've tested this, time and again: If you want Eleusians to band together and kick ass in a team effort, pull on their heart strings. Forget about ideology and/or gods, go for the feels and you'll get an overwhelming response.

    If ya'll need to be coddled, then I don't really have much more to say. If a God saying "do my will" doesn't motivate you to do anything, then you shouldn't be apart of any faction that has divine. Imagine if a God came to you, did supernatural things in front of you and said, "Now do my bidding!" and you replied with, "NOT UNTIL YOU SAY I LOVE YOOOOU OwO," that god is probably gonna roast you and move on.

    tl:dr if you want smoochy huggie wuggie fun time, rogue is an option.




    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    AdrikGror
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I remember when Artemis just posted telling all the self-declared pacifists to just go to Cyrene.

    I think there was one other self-declared pacifist at the time, and they were a total novice unsure if play style the was even possible.

    She later sent me a message like "actually you're okay" because Lenn helped restore forests pretty actively, but by that point I had lost all interest in playing a faction that the gods try very hard to tell the majority of its players they're wrong for how they want to play.
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    "If you don't even want to take part in city defense, once again, why are you even IN a city" lol what???

    For community?

    For all the other stuff cities do?

    The vast amount of things this game has that have nothing to do with PK or even conflict?

    What even is this argument?
    Mroxyl
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 7
    Lenn said:
    She later sent me a message like "actually you're okay" because Lenn helped restore forests pretty actively, but by that point I had lost all interest in playing a faction that the gods try very hard to tell the majority of its players they're wrong for how they want to play.
    The God(s) of a faction absolutely have the right to tell you that your playstyle isn’t working in that faction. If I suddenly got unenemied to Ashtan to hang out with Dunn at Battlements, it wouldn’t be long before I got told to gtfo. You can choose how you want to play the game, but you can’t make that play style acceptable just because you want it to be. Artemis should have kicked them all out, and Gaia should have kicked people who told her she didn’t know what she was talking about.

    Eleusis should respond with savagery, not love love kiss kiss. That mentality is the problem.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    JiraishinCooperAdrikErikka
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 7

    You play the game you want to play, I'll play the game I want to play.

    For clarification though:

    1. "Motivating Mhaldor players can justifiably be done with hate and anger" does not mean "Mhaldorian players are only motivated by hate and anger".
    2. "Love as the core emotional motivator" does not mean "ya'll need to be coddled"
    3. 
    If a God saying "do my will" doesn't motivate you to do anything ...
    Sorry, not sorry! One of the core things that makes the Eleusian community, is the fact that the gods do not motivate them. This has been the case since long before the whole house destruction thing. In fact, if you take a look at the relationship between divine and forestalls, historically, forestalls get screwed by their patrons. So, yea ... Forestalls have learned not to blindly trust their patrons. i.e. An Eleusian patron/matron that wants to be successful, will have to work at winning that trust and keeping it.

    4.
    Did you think that, potentially, she had tried being supportive ...
    Actually, you could say that about Artemis in the beginning, but my experience with Gaia ... no, most definitely not. Gaia was quite loudly and clearly anti-anyone that wasn't from a very, very, very specific little group of Eleusians. That much was made abundantly clear, by both Gaia directly, and senior members from her order.
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 7
    If I recall, people were worried one of them got mind controlled. Again.

    As in, it's happened before.

    Which honestly is enough reason to have Gaia and Artemis fuse together to form Terra, the new goddess of nature who combines peace and fury, and is 100% more immune to mind control than ever before.

    Just stick some blatant flavour text how her will is her own and she speaks for nature, and you're good.
    Athelas
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,953 @ - Epic Achaean
    Athelas said:


    An Eleusian Patron/Matron that wants to be successful, will have to understand that getting the average Eleusian into action, requires Love as the core emotional motivator. Trying to get that with fear, hate or anger as a core motivator, has and will fail!

    I've tested this, time and again: If you want Eleusians to band together and kick ass in a team effort, pull on their heart strings. Forget about ideology and/or gods, go for the feels and you'll get an overwhelming response.
    I had a long post,  but I've revised it to just say that myself, @Faedwyn, @Andraste, and @Torrent would likely disagree with you on most of your post.
    Atalkez said:
    If you as a player in the faction of NATURE are not motivated by the God of NATURE, then you shouldn’t be even playing there. What is this thought process??
    This.  If you're in it for community, but don't want to actively defend that community, then that's a pretty selfish attitude. I want all this, but without doing any work to make sure it stays like this.

  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,856 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 7
    Athelas said:

    You play the game you want to play, I'll play the game I want to play.
    This isn't a good mindset to have, when you're playing in a faction where your ideals are already made for you. If you're not actively promoting a healthy relationship with your NATURE gods, when you're in a place that protects NATURE (aka, not Lupus or Demeter) then fuck off.

    Sorry, not sorry! One of the core things that makes the Eleusian community, is the fact that the gods do not motivate them. This has been the case since long before the whole house destruction thing. In fact, if you take a look at the relationship between divine and forestalls, historically, forestalls get screwed by their patrons. So, yea ... Forestalls have learned not to blindly trust their patrons. i.e. An Eleusian patron/matron that wants to be successful, will have to work at winning that trust and keeping it.
    Good luck with that. If Eleusis wants a patron in the first place, they'll have to prove they're not entitled pricks that'll just make the Divine leave when they get one. By the way it wasn't like that before the whole house destruction thing, I dunno where the flying hell you got that idea. When people like Jhui, Xio, Penwize etc were all active in Eleusis, and Artemis was active, the city was actually good to play in. Eleusis has never been screwed by their Divine. It has been screwed by shitty players, making shitty decisions when other shitty players put them into power.

    Actually, you could say that about Artemis in the beginning, but my experience with Gaia ... no, most definitely not. Gaia was quite loudly and clearly anti-anyone that wasn't from a very, very, very specific little group of Eleusians. That much was made abundantly clear, by both Gaia directly, and senior members from her order.
    No. Just no. Gaia was against people who didn't want to actually contribute to Nature, and help actually nurture Eleusis' growth. There was a very significant divide between the players in the Heartwood and the Scions when the houses were made, and Gaia tried to mend it. The players actively worked against anything she tried to do, then pulled the "We dindu nuffin!" card when she left. Fuck off with that entirely.
    Stop posting. You're just digging your hole even deeper.
    ETA: Please stop saying 'Forestalls' for goodness sake. It's 'Forestals' - Forestall means to prevent something happening... Well... I guess it's fitting given Eleusis' current playerbase, but still the term is wrong.

  • YusefYusef Member Posts: 5
    The character assassinations of the volunteers behind Gaia and Artemis are absurd and wrong. There's a reason the player bases of Hashan, Cyrene, and most notably Eleusis have burned multiple Celani.
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,953 @ - Epic Achaean
    Lenn said:


    Which honestly is enough reason to have Gaia and Artemis fuse together to form Terra, the new goddess of nature who combines peace and fury, and is 100% more immune to mind control than ever before.

    They all came from Gaia.  Just have them re-fuse to Her, in an event to kill off the rest and give Her the essence needed to rise from slumber.  Yadda Yadda. Nature NEEDS Gaia.  Not just another Nature Divine.  But Eleusis won't get Her unless they prove they can and will do what it takes. -shrug-

    CooperIloiseeErikka
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    And I believe Gaia is the one who got mind controlled in the first place.

    Imagine if a plot by Babel involved taking control of Deucalion for a few years.

    How could you put absolute faith in him knowing that can happen, that at any point, he could subtly be poisoning the very thing he stands for?

    It's ridiculous.
    Athelas
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Atalkez said:
    If you as a player in the faction of NATURE are not motivated by the God of NATURE, then you shouldn’t be even playing there. What is this thought process??
    Here's the thing:

    1. Before the whole renaissance thing, NATURE was incredibly well defined and established, and the Eleusian community followed that.
    2. Then, with little more than a splash and bang: "Sorry Loosis, I be god, you listen me, I rule you, do as I say."

    No ... that was never going to work. You can flame me as much as you like, but honestly, just take a moment to think about it.

    If you have a community that has not had divine intervention for centuries, who have established their own laws, regulations, government, processes, procedures etc. Successfully functioning, independently, for centuries ... do you really expect it to have gone any other way than it did?

    The players simply rejected the whole idea, and continued playing the game they have been playing and want to play.

    Can you blame them?
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lenn said:
    If I recall, people were worried one of them got mind controlled. Again.

    As in, it's happened before.

    Which honestly is enough reason to have Gaia and Artemis fuse together to form Terra, the new goddess of nature who combines peace and fury, and is 100% more immune to mind control than ever before.

    Just stick some blatant flavour text how her will is her own and she speaks for nature, and you're good.
    @Farrah, I summon thee!
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 7
    Pyori said:
    ... then fuck off. ...

    You honestly expect me to read further than that?
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,856 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 7
    Athelas said:
     Successfully functioning, independently, for centuries
    Successfully functioning is a bit of a stretch. Also it wasn't 'independently' for centuries, considering Eleusis had Divine a few times before and after the Renaissance. The ideals weren't really changed by the Renaissance, they were solidified because people weren't actually living up to said ideals in the first place, before the destruction of the houses. Then people didn't like that they couldn't be lazy, you can fuck right off saying that 'Love' is fundamental to Eleusis' success. You have zero clue whatsoever about Gaia or Artemis (the only real Nature gods), if you think that's the case. Selene was never Eleusis' patron, bud.

    And yes. You can blame them for shunning the Divine that they asked to have, just because it didn't align with the players' shitty mindsets. Then turn around and cry when that Divine ups and leaves. If you just wanna stagnate on the same shit that you've been doing (which wasn't working, despite what you want to claim), and not give a toss about what your Divine think/wanna do, you absolutely do not deserve a patron in the first place.

    ShirszaeTaryius
  • ShubShub Member Posts: 200 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think a mind controlled deity plot could be addressed in-character in such a way that does not push the volunteers away from playing patrons.

    In a hypothetical Deucalion corruption, I suspect he’d incinerate himself, either before the control could fully take or the first moment that it falters.

    Ive never really experienced any divine interactions myself. I saw Deucalion say something in the city channel once and that’s it. I bet it’s a really fun experience, hard to imagine a faction just not wanting it given all the things they could do to make the game more interesting.

    Maybe it’s awful and we’re better off independent, I’ll let you know how I feel about things after something happens I guess.

    Numira
  • ShubShub Member Posts: 200 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Is this like a wow thing, do I have to click the portal to complete the summoning?

  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 7
    Pyori said:
    Successfully functioning is a bit of a stretch. Also it wasn't 'independently' for centuries, considering Eleusis had Divine a few times before and after the Renaissance. The ideals weren't really changed by the Renaissance, they were solidified because people weren't actually living up to said ideals in the first place, before the destruction of the houses. Then people didn't like that they couldn't be lazy, you can fuck right off saying that 'Love' is fundamental to Eleusis' success. You have zero clue whatsoever about Gaia or Artemis (the only real Nature gods), if you think that's the case. Selene was never Eleusis' patron, bud.

    And yes. You can blame them for shunning the Divine that they asked to have, just because it didn't align with the players' shitty mindsets. Then turn around and cry when that Divine ups and leaves. If you just wanna stagnate on the same shit that you've been doing (which wasn't working, despite what you want to claim), and not give a toss about what your Divine think/wanna do, you absolutely do not deserve a patron in the first place.
    @Pyori

    1. Our definitions of the word "Love" is quite obviously vastly different. When I use it, I do not mean it's carnal definition. Please re-read my posts with that in mind.
    2. Nothing I've said is an attack on the person/persons that play/have played Gaia. If you read it that way, that's your choice.
    3. You seem to have a very different experience of Eleusis than I have. From my perspective, I like Eleusis exactly the way it is right now. Your metrics for success, are not my metrics for success. Again! You play the game you want. I'll play the game I want. That is part of what makes Achaea great.
    4. If keeping Eleusis free of the PvP vs Non-PvP division that existed while it's patrons were active, means that we may not have patrons again ... so be it. As a player I'd rather not have patrons, than have ones that cause in-fighting among the characters.
    5. YES! I'm aware that you state that this is not what happened. Even if that's the case, that is not how I experienced it. Everything I've written here, is quite obviously from MY point of view. If you would like to change that point of view, you might want to use fewer expletives and more honest conversation.

    Yea, I am actually open to having my mind changed, but not while I'm being cursed at.
    Mroxyl
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,856 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1. Love, when capitalised like that, refers to Lady Selene's tenets when talking about in-game stuff. Those do not correlate with Eleusis' ideals whatsoever.
    2. You absolutely have. Don't deflect.
    3. Of course you do, you don't wanna do anything except apparently say NATURE Gods are wrong about what's best for NATURE. Then scream that you know better than they do.
    4. Players cause infighting between players. Divine don't, nor have they ever in Eleusis.
    5. Your very biased point of view, that doesn't actually have any truth in it. Yes.

    Nothing I've said has been dishonest. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

  • Arin!Arin! Member Posts: 54 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    This.... has devolved, as many discussions about orders seem to do. This is a conversation I have seen re-hashed again and again, to the same frustrations. Can we try to keep this thread a positive discussion about the Waking divines and mentions of especially cool orders/ pre-clans without active divines?

    Lenn
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