Dragon Lairs

Boosteya

I am really glad I never went for dragon yet!

I'm still not interested in doing so.

Skye

The last time I hit gold cap was during Blackwave 2.0 I think... >_> 

I guess if you *really* wanted, you could make the lair free PK. It won't do anything for the people mooching off the exp and crit bonuses, but anyone  in the lair you see mooching the END/WP buff that you paid for, you can smack them one and tell them to get off their lazy asses >_> 

Of course, I have a campfire kit and don't care for your petty socialist peasant concerns. *flees*

Telinus

Everyone talking about this courier and I still haven't found the path of rubble and detritus in the Dakhota hills..

Morthif

Your glorious wealth would permit you to invest in the following boons:

Boon                 Cost                

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Draconic will        50000

Draconic fortitude   50000

Draconic fury        100000

Draconic intelect    75000

intelect is spelled wrong I think.. and it's not very clear what they do even after using one...

Morthif

Also, did we ever get an answer on if you need be in dragonform to benefit from the boons and/or have the gold cap count towards the hoard? @Nicola @Makarios @Ictinus

Antonius

Morthif said:

Your glorious wealth would permit you to invest in the following boons:

Boon                 Cost                

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Draconic will        50000

Draconic fortitude   50000

Draconic fury        100000

Draconic intelect    75000

intelect is spelled wrong I think.. and it's not very clear what they do even after using one...

Intelect is incorrect, yes; should be double-L.

Based on knowing what the four current bonuses are, and looking at the names and costs involved, I'd guess:

Draconic will = willpower regen

Draconic fortitude = endurance regen

Draconic fury = XP bonus

Draconic intellect = crit bonus

Antonius

Morthif said:

Also, did we ever get an answer on if you need be in dragonform to benefit from the boons and/or have the gold cap count towards the hoard? @Nicola @Makarios @Ictinus

Hopefully it's yes or no to both, and not yes to the former but no to the latter. I hardly ever use Dragon (the recent auction win removed one of the few remaining needs I had for it), but pretty regularly bash (just beyond) the gold softcap, so I don't want to be funding bonuses for other people when I'm not getting any benefit from them myself. (Once I've unlocked lairs, which I've not finished doing yet.)

Slightly related to this, is there a way to find out 1. who has the same primary dragon colour as yourself and 2. which of them have access to the shared lair?

Trey

Antonius said:

Morthif said:

Your glorious wealth would permit you to invest in the following boons:

Boon                 Cost                

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Draconic will        50000

Draconic fortitude   50000

Draconic fury        100000

Draconic intelect    75000

intelect is spelled wrong I think.. and it's not very clear what they do even after using one...

Intelect is incorrect, yes; should be double-L.

Based on knowing what the four current bonuses are, and looking at the names and costs involved, I'd guess:

Draconic will = willpower regen

Draconic fortitude = endurance regen

Draconic fury = XP bonus

Draconic intellect = crit bonus

It would make more sense for it to be reversed for the last two imo

Antonius

Trey said:

Antonius said:

Morthif said:

Your glorious wealth would permit you to invest in the following boons:

Boon                 Cost                

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Draconic will        50000

Draconic fortitude   50000

Draconic fury        100000

Draconic intelect    75000

intelect is spelled wrong I think.. and it's not very clear what they do even after using one...

Intelect is incorrect, yes; should be double-L.

Based on knowing what the four current bonuses are, and looking at the names and costs involved, I'd guess:

Draconic will = willpower regen

Draconic fortitude = endurance regen

Draconic fury = XP bonus

Draconic intellect = crit bonus

It would make more sense for it to be reversed for the last two imo

I assumed that XP bonus is being valued more highly than crit bonus, and therefore the one with the higher cost of the two is the XP bonus. Similarly assumed that the two regens are considered the least valuable of the bonuses, but are equal in value to each other, so used the names there.

Those assumptions could easily be wrong, though. The values that the admins assign to things regularly make me stop and go "What the hell?"

There are other things I don't know as well, like the duration of each bonus. I'm assuming that XP and crit bonus have the same duration, but it could be 100k for two hours of crit versus 75k for an hour of XP bonus.

Sobriquet

I'm still struggling to see why they've done this as primary (or any) colour. There are numerous factions in the game and trying to bind characters to one that spans all of them doesn't really work. I tried this with the Ivory Mark and it doesn't allow people to join behind a common goal that is strong enough to supersede anything else.

I'm Gold, so why would I want to contribute to a lair that provides a bonus for Farrah and Aegoth? There is pretty much zero incentive, in fact the incentive is there for me not to join the lair.. unless I'm missing something?

Kiet

y'all gotta get off the capitalist fuck you got mine kool-aid lmao

Jarrod

Contribute to a lair that provides bonuses to yourself. Anything else is incidental.

Farrah

I don't see any incentive for you to not join, since joining lets you benefit from others' bonuses even if you don't actively contribute yourself. The only "loss" is that if you happen to bash past gold cap, the gold you wouldn't have gotten anyway will go to the lair, but there's nowhere else you can send that gold so it doesn't seem like much of a disincentive to joining.

Obviously, I agree about having no reason to actually contribute, though. I don't have a problem with cross-factional groupings in general, as long as they aren't expected to act like allies. But it takes away any atruistic motivation since we don't want to benefit enemies IC. So it becomes basically "do I want this crit bonus for myself so much that I don't mind buying it for everyone?"

Can we all stop mischaracterizing characters' factional loyalty as some kind of capitalism vs socialism debate, though? Are we going to start accusing Mhaldorians of supporting slavery and genocide irl now? Like, opinions here are really not relevant or related to rl fiscal policies.

Nobody argues irl, for example, that U.S. taxes should be used to fund healthcare for ISIS. The entire concept of "socialism" takes place within a particular group. People's objection here is paying for bonuses for enemies. Unless you treat this all completely OOC, it's bizarre for a character to work to support others who are essentially "terrorists" to them IG and regularly murder their citizens.

Taryius

Fury is 100% the crit bonus when I tried it. Would make sense that they would value the crit bonus and faster bashing higher than the xp-bonus when we are all already Dragons so bonus xp only does so much for us.

Nicola

If you are hunting beyond your gold cap in lesserform, this gold will transfer to the hoard.

Activated hoard bonuses only affect members of the lair when in dragonform.

We're not considering minimum contribution requirements at this time, but we'll keep an eye on hoard contributions over the next few weeks.

The bonuses do last a long time for their costs, 10 hours on the lowest, and up to a day on the top end, so we're not hugely worried about the "stealing" of hoard bonuses just yet.

Laodoke

Don’t make it a pk zone as suggested please. Just ends up being another’s gank zone and not every dragon just loves combat. There are plenty of those places for people. Would be ok with minimum yearly contribution as long as it wasn’t too high! I haven’t unlocked it is there a way to put your personal gold in without hitting cap because I virtually never hit cap but wouldn’t care to contribute for the perks. 

Taryius

Laodoke said:

Don’t make it a pk zone as suggested please. Just ends up being another’s gank zone and not every dragon just loves combat. There are plenty of those places for people. Would be ok with minimum yearly contribution as long as it wasn’t too high! I haven’t unlocked it is there a way to put your personal gold in without hitting cap because I virtually never hit cap but wouldn’t care to contribute for the perks. 

I very much doubt they will make them open PK-Zones when the idea is a sharing place among your draconic kin of the same color. 

And yes you can toss your own gold as well, with the HOARD ENDOW <amount> command to contribute to the hoard and therefore the boons.

Laodoke

Cool! Thanks!

Kiet

Farrah said:

I don't see any incentive for you to not join, since joining lets you benefit from others' bonuses even if you don't actively contribute yourself. The only "loss" is that if you happen to bash past gold cap, the gold you wouldn't have gotten anyway will go to the lair, but there's nowhere else you can send that gold so it doesn't seem like much of a disincentive to joining.

Obviously, I agree about having no reason to actually contribute, though. I don't have a problem with cross-factional groupings in general, as long as they aren't expected to act like allies. But it takes away any atruistic motivation since we don't want to benefit enemies IC. So it becomes basically "do I want this crit bonus for myself so much that I don't mind buying it for everyone?"

Can we all stop mischaracterizing characters' factional loyalty as some kind of capitalism vs socialism debate, though? Are we going to start accusing Mhaldorians of supporting slavery and genocide irl now? Like, opinions here are really not relevant or related to rl fiscal policies.

Nobody argues irl, for example, that U.S. taxes should be used to fund healthcare for ISIS. The entire concept of "socialism" takes place within a particular group. People's objection here is paying for bonuses for enemies. Unless you treat this all completely OOC, it's bizarre for a character to work to support others who are essentially "terrorists" to them IG and regularly murder their citizens.

With 10-24 hour buffs, the idea seems to be clearly that to benefit yourself you're benefiting others. This is the same idea most modern online games use, where things like quest credit are shared in informal groups and even paid perks are often beneficial to the group rather than only the individual.  It's healthier for the community to work that way. If you're going to compare it to RL situations, it'd be a lot more how NGO's and relief are allowed to operate in war zones by both sides unless one side is breaking international law.

Beyond that, people do stuff like buy/sell talismans to city enemies or opposing cities all the time, and no one seems to get up in arms about that. All the complaints so far have been worded very strongly to appear to be from a place of 'it's not fair others get stuff for free!', rather than 'I'm much more opposed to even interacting with city enemies than the vast majority of the game is in practice.'

Morthif

Nicola said:

If you are hunting beyond your gold cap in lesserform, this gold will transfer to the hoard.

Activated hoard bonuses only affect members of the lair when in dragonform.

We're not considering minimum contribution requirements at this time, but we'll keep an eye on hoard contributions over the next few weeks.

The bonuses do last a long time for their costs, 10 hours on the lowest, and up to a day on the top end, so we're not hugely worried about the "stealing" of hoard bonuses just yet.

10/24 hour boons are very generous. The only problem I see is that 90% of the gold is going to come from people who would never bash in dragonform and thus not get any benefits themselves. The crit or exp boon would have to be so obscenely good to outweigh the garbage bashing that is dragonform.

Farrah

Kiet said:

Farrah said:

I don't see any incentive for you to not join, since joining lets you benefit from others' bonuses even if you don't actively contribute yourself. The only "loss" is that if you happen to bash past gold cap, the gold you wouldn't have gotten anyway will go to the lair, but there's nowhere else you can send that gold so it doesn't seem like much of a disincentive to joining.

Obviously, I agree about having no reason to actually contribute, though. I don't have a problem with cross-factional groupings in general, as long as they aren't expected to act like allies. But it takes away any atruistic motivation since we don't want to benefit enemies IC. So it becomes basically "do I want this crit bonus for myself so much that I don't mind buying it for everyone?"

Can we all stop mischaracterizing characters' factional loyalty as some kind of capitalism vs socialism debate, though? Are we going to start accusing Mhaldorians of supporting slavery and genocide irl now? Like, opinions here are really not relevant or related to rl fiscal policies.

Nobody argues irl, for example, that U.S. taxes should be used to fund healthcare for ISIS. The entire concept of "socialism" takes place within a particular group. People's objection here is paying for bonuses for enemies. Unless you treat this all completely OOC, it's bizarre for a character to work to support others who are essentially "terrorists" to them IG and regularly murder their citizens.

With 10-24 hour buffs, the idea seems to be clearly that to benefit yourself you're benefiting others. This is the same idea most modern online games use, where things like quest credit are shared in informal groups and even paid perks are often beneficial to the group rather than only the individual.  It's healthier for the community to work that way. If you're going to compare it to RL situations, it'd be a lot more how NGO's and relief are allowed to operate in war zones by both sides unless one side is breaking international law.

Beyond that, people do stuff like buy/sell talismans to city enemies or opposing cities all the time, and no one seems to get up in arms about that. All the complaints so far have been worded very strongly to appear to be from a place of 'it's not fair others get stuff for free!', rather than 'I'm much more opposed to even interacting with city enemies than the vast majority of the game is in practice.'

You are right that the complaints aren't about "interacting" with enemies. I also never said that was a problem, nor did hardly anyone else. The complaints are about purchasing bonuses for enemies (for free to the enemies). Trading is different, hence my suggestion of a minimum contribution which makes it a situation of mutual cost and benefit, more like a trade. Flatout giving things for free to enemies is not something most people would endorse in other areas. I don't just give out free talismans to enemies, etc. I don't think many people would be complaining if the bonus they paid for went to their own city, for example. Thus, it's clear you're misconstruing their arguments.

Something like "quest credit" being shared with a group presumably happens when that group is participating in the quest. The complaints are about people receiving benefits without participating at all by contributing. Your comparisons are not very apt at all. "Gold dragons" is not a "group" in the sense of being a team or a real community, since many of the "members" are, like I said, diametrically opposed enemies IG.

It doesn't seem that we're going to agree on this, though, and none of this bothers me particularly much. I just won't donate gold towards it as is, because there's no reason to. I just wish you'd stop acting like people are being "selfish" by playing characters with IC alignments and not treating lairs as some OOC thing where they should suddenly love everyone they fight so strongly against! It's a perfectly reasonable stance that really has nothing to do with selfishness or capitalism vs socialism, but with IC motivations.

Penwize

Nicola said:

If you are hunting beyond your gold cap in lesserform, this gold will transfer to the hoard.

This part doesn't work right now. Doesn't work in dragonform or lesserform.

Shirszae

The fact it only applies if you are hunting in dragonform is pretty disappointing. Would be great if it applied to people in lesserform too. 

Please?

Aegoth

Yea, dragon hunting is sloooooooow... 

Cooper

It is hard to not be negative about this

No benefit at all for hoards for the people who will actually fuel them. We don't need endurance or willpower regeneration, and we don't bash in dragon. 

Please consider adding the bonuses to lesserform.

Jarrod

I think it's clear what needs to be done. City-based color designation by the players.

Get your applications prepped.

Dupre

Dragon lairs benefiting a nondragon form doesn't make sense, it is like asking Dragoncraft to be able to be used with your lesserform class again

Shirszae

Makes as much sense as nondragons contributing to the hoard, which is already in.

Keorin

I'd say it's pretty bizarre not to, from a gameplay standpoint. Dragon is a hunting achievement, gold from hunting goes into the hoard, and the bonuses seem fairly hunting-focused. Except, dragon isn't a lot of people's best hunting class, so the people most likely to get the bonuses going, and most likely to benefit from post-cap gold going into the hoard are some of the least likely to ever benefit from it.

It makes some sense flavour-wise, but it's pretty ill-fitting design, I think.

[Deleted User]

Dupre said:

Dragon lairs benefiting a nondragon form doesn't make sense, it is like asking Dragoncraft to be able to be used with your lesserform class again

It's not really the same thing at all.

To make a comparison of sorts- WoW has a number of dragons that can assume human forms in much the same way that adventurers in Achaea can. Everything they do still affects their race regardless of them being in their draconic form. It's not as if they can still fly, or breathe fire/lightning/ice whatever in their human forms.

It's weird that it's seemingly a one-way thing, wherein your lesserform doesn't get diddly squat, but still contributes to the lair.