Reclamation

Accipiter

Classes talking about empty skills when Venom exists

Antonius

Subterfuge has about four thousand abilities, a lot of which are amazing, so...

Jiraishin

Antonius said:

Subterfuge has about four thousand abilities, a lot of which are amazing, so...

God I love Subterfuge

Jarrod

My only problem with Venom is that Transcretion is the trans ability and the skill is basically useless up to that point.

Move it wayyyy down and make the top skills scytherus (at top) > slike > gecko or something.

[Deleted User]

Renrifrur said:

Being in a forestal city doesn't mean you're the ultimate authority on Forestal classes, especially when you're not one, or don't appear to be one.

Never said it does. You're talking to people who have considerably more experience than you, though. Whether it be using the class, or extensively fighting against the class. Tends to carry more weight than someone who just reads the AB files and think they know all there is to know about the class.

Okay, you win! We'll just wait until someone with a louder voice complains, as normally happens when I voice concerns about anything!

Sounds good. The only complaints about Druid since its 'rework' have been that it's ridiculously hard to beat when played well, though.

Renrifrur said:

Not like there was a reason druid isn't seen much or anything like that.
Yeah, that reason is because you have to play either rogue, or play in Eleusis (or be one of the very few who were a city druid, and still have the class). Not because the class is bad.

Renrifrur

There's little more to abilities than what is in the files. There are no secrets, barring one Quarterstaff one which every druid knows. There's no esoteric extra scroll to read or an ancient martial art to learn. Anyone who can read knows what the abilities do, they know what the afflictions do, a little more reading or common sense will have you directed to the killpaths.

Being ridiculously hard to beat...? Move out of the forest. Move out of the grove. Move out of the reclaimed area. They lose over half of their skills (most of their skillset is utility anyway) and the ability to carry out one of their kill paths. They can't exactly chase you while reclaiming land. They can't grove you if you're not in a forest or jungle.

Outside of their defendable areas, the Druid has Hydra, Wyvern and other morphs which are strong, but they're probably not as strong as 3 completely independant skillsets.

These super experienced players clearly aren't that good if they're dying to Druids on any sort of regular basis.

And again, I'm not saying Druid needs to be able to run people down with Reclamation. I'm not saying that every Druid should be able to beat everyone while in their Grove and Reclamation (they should certainly have a major advantage though) but it'd be nice for Druid to get a little bit more for their investment, even if it's small changes, like Refresh only healing Allies, or not healing Enemies, reclaimed land acting like forests or such other stuff. 

Farrah

Saying "Don't fight a Druid in reclaimed land" is like saying "Don't fight a magi in vibes" or "Don't fight a priest in rites." That's not how combat actually works...

[Deleted User]

Renrifrur said:

There's little more to abilities than what is in the files. There are no secrets, barring one Quarterstaff one which every druid knows. There's no esoteric extra scroll to read or an ancient martial art to learn. Anyone who can read knows what the abilities do, they know what the afflictions do, a little more reading or common sense will have you directed to the killpaths.

Being ridiculously hard to beat...? Move out of the forest. Move out of the grove. Move out of the reclaimed area. They lose over half of their skills (most of their skillset is utility anyway) and the ability to carry out one of their kill paths. They can't exactly chase you while reclaiming land. They can't grove you if you're not in a forest or jungle.

Outside of their defendable areas, the Druid has Hydra, Wyvern and other morphs which are strong, but they're probably not as strong as 3 completely independant skillsets.

These super experienced players clearly aren't that good if they're dying to Druids on any sort of regular basis.

And again, I'm not saying Druid needs to be able to run people down with Reclamation. I'm not saying that every Druid should be able to beat everyone while in their Grove and Reclamation (they should certainly have a major advantage though) but it'd be nice for Druid to get a little bit more for their investment, even if it's small changes, like Refresh only healing Allies, or not healing Enemies, reclaimed land acting like forests or such other stuff. 

Anyone who can read AB files should have already mastered all of the intricacies of combat and complexity involved in setting up kill paths. This is why the learning curve is so shallow that everyone involved to any degree is considered an expert. Between those who are literate, combat is actually just coinflips on who gets to win.

Really, why does anyone die to anything? Just leave for 3 minutes any time a limb is prepped; you could also just run the minute you're hit at all, to be safe. Loop shield or your momentum stall of choice any time a momentum class afflicts you with anything. Outright refuse to fight in any room with passive hinder or any other entrenchment style skill up. Real victories happen in the news room.

If you think individual skills need to be tweaked, there's a whole system for that (HELP CLASSLEADS). 

Renrifrur

@Farrah Why isn't it...? How can you say I'm the one that has things wrong here when you're the one insisting on fighting a class which is powerful in certain locations inside their particular location? If you're fighting a Druid in their Grove and Reclaimed land then sorry but you fully deserve to die in that situation because you're being dumb. If you think you should win, or you are winning that circumstance, then there's something up with that.

@Issam Dumb point, you're fighting an inherently defence based class in their defence zones. Moving ONE room completely denies the druid the ability to use the skillset on you, seems logical to me...?

Would you stand in a room while a Priest is charging their hammer up to instakill you? 
Would you stand in a room while a Tarot user is rubbing a death card up all over you?

[Deleted User]

Moving one room is the counter to a ton of different strategies. Keeping an icewalled exit with a monolith on the other side, for instance, is a major component of evading many prep kill windows.

What is a 'defence based class'? You're making up terms and explaining scenarios in a way that doesn't at all reflect how combat actually works in the game. You have a thread full of people telling you to actually try the abilities you're lamenting about so that you potentially string together more coherent reasoning for why it should be changed.

Alternatively, I guess you could keep calling everything dumb and acting like you know better than anyone else. In that case, why did you bother making a thread for discussing this? 

Austere

Renrifrur said:

Would you stand in a room while a Priest is charging their hammer up to instakill you? 
Would you stand in a room while a Tarot user is rubbing a death card up all over you?

Judging. That's the word you're looking for. Judging.  It's also a mace.

Rubbing death is prep. Throwing is when you die. 

Farrah

There's no reason the Druid can only have a single room of reclaimed area. 

If combat was balanced the way you want it to be, there would be no point in fighting. Fight in reclaimed land = lose. Fight out of reclaimed land = win. Why bother fighting it out? You're not supposed to just guaranteed lose in reclaimed areas, no. Druids are meant to fight in them and use their perks to win, though, yes.

If the issue is having to pause to reclaim (making it difficult to use when get jumped), maybe classlead a solution to that. I'm sure it's that way because of the exterminate analog but because it's needed for the instakill I could maybe see some slight tweaking there. I've never heard an actual druid combatant complain about this so maybe it's not even an issue. It certainly doesn't make the whole skill shit.

Renrifrur

A defence based class, since you're incapable of extrapolating the simplest of things, clearly indicating that you're verysmart, and totally don't need me to explain everything to grasp what's actually a pretty simple concept if you think for a few seconds, is one that is based on defence.

The Druid is set up to defend the forests. They can expand out of the forests with Reclamation, but they lose a lot of their power by doing so. Reclamation makes up for this power loss, but it still requires set up before-hand, meaning that a Druid is better when they take time to set up, rather just walking into a room and starting to wham someone to death like other classes. 

This is similar to how Sentinels have their traps and environment based skills, though a Sentinel doesn't rely on the forest as much. 

Telinus

If they leave and refuse to fight you at all on reclaimed land you wont get your kill but then... they wont ever kill you. You only need them to be standing in a reclaimed room at the start of your finish prep for the insta.

From my brief stint as a druid, this was unavoidable if its started in a reclaimed room and they haven't pre-tumbled - could be wrong though.

If they do get away after you've started your break sequence you're potentially doing something wrong.

Renrifrur

@Farrah You clearly don't understand Reclamation then. Reclaiming land takes time. If someone moves out of the room, they have to channel to expand it, which breaks if they do anything, including sipping, or relinquish their land to start a new claim. The amount of time that'll put you off balance for, particularly if you have to repeat it...

[Deleted User]

Renrifrur said:

A defence based class, since you're incapable of extrapolating the simplest of things, clearly indicating that you're verysmart, and totally don't need me to explain everything to grasp what's actually a pretty simple concept if you think for a few seconds, is one that is based on defence.

The Druid is set up to defend the forests. They can expand out of the forests with Reclamation, but they lose a lot of their power by doing so. Reclamation makes up for this power loss, but it still requires set up before-hand, meaning that a Druid is better when they take time to set up, rather just walking into a room and starting to wham someone to death like other classes. 

This is similar to how Sentinels have their traps and environment based skills, though a Sentinel doesn't rely on the forest as much. 

I'm asking you to explain your thought process because it seems to be based on speculation of how combat itself works. You're still just telling everyone else they're dumb and wrong or clearly don't understand. I would suggest submitting your ideas during a classlead round, since if players telling you they're misguided isn't doing anything, a firm rejection from the administration hopefully would.

Taryius

This thread is hilarious.

Farrah

Renrifrur said:

@Farrah You clearly don't understand Reclamation then. Reclaiming land takes time. If someone moves out of the room, they have to channel to expand it, which breaks if they do anything, including sipping, or relinquish their land to start a new claim. The amount of time that'll put you off balance for, particularly if you have to repeat it...

You clearly didn't read my post.

You wouldn't reclaim midcombat the way it's currently setup, but you could certainly have more than a one room network already setup. Isn't that the whole point?

If I was druid, I'd claim everywhere just because that's the fun part of the skill.

Torinn

Pre-prepping the room is what they're saying.  Priests have to do it too, and yes it's annoying as hell trust me (priest is basically all I play).  But when it's done right, the bads have a very hard time of it.  It takes pre-thought and sometimes you don't get the chance, but hey.

Renrifrur

I mean, when you're pretending to be smart, then talk about how Groves OP in a conversation about Reclamation, then to throw in more tirades unrelated to reclamation in attempts to derail and detract, then you probably need to be told, and others need to be informed, that you're talking nonsense.

You're pretty defensive for someone who's perfectly fine flinging shit.

Klendathu

@Farrah, don't come in here pretending like you know anything about combat, you scrub. Do you even PK?

(I've not been so amused by a thread in such a long, long time)

Antonius

And you seem pretty arrogant for somebody who appears to have played the game for all of five seconds and clearly has no fucking clue how things work.

(Obviously not at you, Klendathu, though this is what you get for posting before me.)

Cyr

This thread is highly amusing. But for the sake of I'm not even sure, I'll contribute some 1. looking at one of the three skills in a class almost never gives you a solid idea of how they're played, or what the strengths and weaknesses of that class are 2. Druid is fine, I think the only complaints I've heard about druid are along the lines of 'Jesus that setup is absurd' not 'oh man druid is so weak' (I know of like 15 people atleast who would probably pick up druid in a heartbeat if it wasn't faction locked to a faction they aren't playing) 3. Some of the best active combatants in the game have been in this thread telling you exactly why you're wrong, and mostly they've been pretty kind about it, and instead of saying 'huh maybe this isn't quite what I thought it was' you've doubled down and insulted them.

At this point I'm not even sure @Makarios coming in here and telling you that you're entirely wrong would do anything to change your mind. It might result in the highly amusing situation of you telling him he has no idea what he's talking about though, so I'm hoping.

Farrah

Antonius said:

And you seem pretty arrogant for somebody who appears to have played the game for all of five seconds and clearly has no fucking clue how things work.

(Obviously not at you, Klendathu, though this is what you get for posting before me.)

But he just called me a nub! This is war!

Renrifrur

@Farrah
While I don't think it was particularly malicious, you did edit your post about the time it takes before 

Claiming everything as a Druid takes a tremendous amount of time, your claim vanishes after a while, which is why you probably never see claimed land outside of combat or that one event, and if you happen to enter combat then you might have to give up your reclaimed land. 

If you're using Reclamation, it's likely that you probably don't have access to most of your Groves abilities.

Wrath undoes all your work, but was described to me as a 30% health instakill. 

@Torrin Pre-prepping IS the Druid class, they should be pretty good at it. I'm more confused about the people saying that they should fight a Grove User in their environment as if it was any other fight, not saying the Druid should wreck no matter where they go.

Klendathu

Antonius said:

And you seem pretty arrogant for somebody who appears to have played the game for all of five seconds and clearly has no fucking clue how things work.

(Obviously not at you, Klendathu, though this is what you get for posting before me.)

Still true for me too though, I have NFI how anything works.

Cyr

Klendathu said:

Antonius said:

And you seem pretty arrogant for somebody who appears to have played the game for all of five seconds and clearly has no fucking clue how things work.

(Obviously not at you, Klendathu, though this is what you get for posting before me.)

Still true for me too though, I have NFI how anything works.

You have played for more than 5 seconds though. (Bashing is evil!)

Sobriquet

Cyr said:

This thread is highly amusing. But for the sake of I'm not even sure, I'll contribute some 1. looking at one of the three skills in a class almost never gives you a solid idea of how they're played, or what the strengths and weaknesses of that class are 2. Druid is fine, I think the only complaints I've heard about druid are along the lines of 'Jesus that setup is absurd' not 'oh man druid is so weak' (I know of like 15 people atleast who would probably pick up druid in a heartbeat if it wasn't faction locked to a faction they aren't playing) 3. Some of the best active combatants in the game have been in this thread telling you exactly why you're wrong, and mostly they've been pretty kind about it, and instead of saying 'huh maybe this isn't quite what I thought it was' you've doubled down and insulted them.

At this point I'm not even sure @Makarios coming in here and telling you that you're entirely wrong would do anything to change your mind. It might result in the highly amusing situation of you telling him he has no idea what he's talking about though, so I'm hoping.

Something something Can't see what's he's doing something something.

This thread is amusing, but I know sweet FA about Druids. Didn't they build Stonehenge?

Rhivona

This discussion has veered far from being constructive - if you have ideas for skill changes, the CLASSLEADS platform would be the appropriate place for them!