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Reclamation

RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
edited October 2018 in Druid
Reclamation seems like it has great potential, but at the same time feels slightly... Empty.  

  • The first three abilities could easily be packaged into one.
  • Status should really be the second ability in the tree, or in this first package.
  • Forestwalk is just Flow, except on your claimed land. I'd rather just be able to Flow to people within my claimed land.
  • Sleep Spores... Well... I'm not sure how useful those are, but I'm imagining the answer is somewhere near "Not very."
  • Windwhisper is nice. It feels like a Groves ability though. 
  • Knowledge is just Eyes.
  • Omniscience is Forestwatch.
  • Poison Spores could be okay, until you realise you can only have one effect.
  • Consume is... Cool... I guess...? 
  • Constrict seems fair, but you can already do that without the cooldown limitation using Hydra, which uses a whole other balance.
  • Regrowth is nice. It's another Rejuvenate though.
  • Pollen can't be used with other spores.
  • Signal feels like it should be built into Reclamation by default.
  • Polarity... I didn't even realise you could have one effect at a time until reading this, and it left me actually mind boggled.
  • Subsume would be useless if Reclamation just made your reclaimed land Forest and allowed you to use your Groves skills in it.
  • Ward should maybe be a passive, though having an extra defence that needs to be stripped is nice.
  • Revive is incredible... But we already have it in Groves, it's just not mobile, and Revive is free.
  • Embrace, killpath, nice.
  • Wrath? ALL MY HARD WORK. But seriously, it does sound like an incredibly strong ability, even if it's only a Lash 2.0, which also removes all your claim.

Suggestions:

Make Reclamation more of a Long-Term skill, make it create forests that last and can be used with groves.
Allow ability to nurture existing forests and the new ones you're creating afresh with nice utility.
Allow Forestals to actually claim the world back in some way, but in a manageable way.
More Refresh and Smother like abilities, those are the really good ones!



These are obviously just my opinions, but Reclamation as an actual skill... It holds little that's actually new. 

Reclaim (Relinquish, Expand, Status)
Lash
SleepSpores
WindWhisper
Poisonspores
Consume
Pollen
Smother
Refresh
Embrace 
Wrath

When I look at Reclamation abilities, this is what I see the skill as being, in terms of new stuff, with the stricken abilities being ones that'd take me a lot of convincing to use. 
Stuff like Refresh, Windwhisper and Smother is nice.
I mean absolutely no offence, but this is just what I feel at the moment.
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Comments

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think you're missing the entire purpose of the skill, which is to give you limited grove like utility outside of groves/forests.

    TaryiusAntoniusUtianima
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    Other Tertiary abilities offer something new or complementary. Most of this is neither new 'nor amazingly complimentary. 

    Constrict is objectively a bad choice in pretty much every Scenario, there's no need for the first three skills to be separate and/or not available instantly.

    Compare Reclamation to Necromancy, Artifice, Domination.



     
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Objectively bad? Constrict is for when hydra bind is on cool down
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  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I will trade you Necromancy for Reclamation any time you want.

  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    I'm not seeing it, Dupre.

    But let's see Necromancy compared with Reclamation...

    Deathsight is not that good, but then neither is having one room of One-time Extermination protection.

    Freeze someone very early on in 4 seconds give or take... VS The ability to expand your Anti-Extermination Room.

    Sense or the ability to remove your claim?

    Decay, I'm unsure about. I sort of wish we had damage values, but it does magic damage, which I suppose bypasses armour. This would be exchanged to be able to check what rooms you have claimed.

    Night for an ability you already have and need to set up beforehand.

    Shroud for Lash, fair 'nuff.

    Screech for Sleepspores? Really?

    Taint for the ability to hear people who talk in rooms which very clearly state that you're reclaiming it. 

    Feed for Knowledge, an ability you already have.

    Leech for Omniscience, likewise to the above.

    Lifevision to Poisonspores. Both have advantages, Lifevision can just be thrown up with the rest of your defences though, and if you have poison, you can't have healing.

    Shrivel, the path to your instakill with a 2 second cooldown give or take, vs the ability to expand your reclaim if you kill people and have this effect on your reclaimed land.

    Cannibalism, instantaneous essence gain, in exchange for a bind which goes on cooldown after.

    Health boost vs cheap Vivify.

    Mana boost vs asphyxiation damage, which literally everyone has resistance to.

    Putrefaction... Cutting+Blunt protection vs something that should really be a passive.

    Passing around Necromancy devotion in exchange for putting out forest fires. While the forest fire thing is cool for Eleusis, it requires a degree of pre-planning and provides little combat-wise.

    Belch vs Refresh. Now, refresh is really nice, but you can't use other spore abilities while using it, and it's one of three of your active effects at trans, it's your one effect lower down.

    Deathaura CAN be used with Belch by default. You don't NEED polarity to use it.

    Disfigure, disloyalty, vs being able to use someone else's claim.

    Soulstorm, mess with someone's Metamorph, potentially crippling them for a short time vs... A third effect.

    Gravehands vs Ward, your hinder.

    Leprosy, ouch more instakill, revive, we already got that and it can revive souls, but isn't mobile.

    Exterminate, can hurt forestals vs Embrace, an instakill. I'm not sure if Vivisect is an easier path than Embrace or not.

    Vengeance, more AoE damage, Wrath, sacrifice all your work to deal a burst of damage. 

    Then Necromancy continues.

    Soulspear, weh...

    Transverse, this is actually fun! 

    Blackwind, seems like a great defence, also, what on earth. 

    Desecration, basically wastes enemy devotion.

    Vivisect, you seem to have better tools to do this than Embrace, in the same skill. 

    Soulcage is like an extra starburst.

    Infestation, OUCH.

    Do you actually want to swap?











  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's pretty clear you don't understand reclamation, combat, and utility. If you think reclamation is so terrible, change class or put in classleads to improve it during the next cycle.

    Shirszae
  • VikaVika Member Posts: 116 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Reclamation is stupidly strong, and I actively try to avoid being on it when fighting against Emiya or Miriew.

    The amount of passive damage it can give, or the passive healing to allow you to survive damage set ups.
    You can bind when you need a breather.
    You can see anyone even in phase walking over it.
    You can HEAR people without them knowing it and at little drain to you.
    You can revive allies on it.
    Can also get rid of a totem altogether if you're raiding without a smudger.


    This is just what I remember off the top of my head. A ton of classes would kill for the utility that it provides, especially paired with some hyper offensive classes.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're still pretty fresh faced and new to Druid combat, so I highly suggest you talk to Miriew and Emiya about things. Reclamation isnt an all out offensive skillset, it's meant to play utility and adapt to the situation that you need it for!
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    edited October 2018
    "You're missing the point."

    "I'd swap Necromancy."

    "You have no idea how combat works."

    Good talk.

    @Vika Druid can ALREADY do ALL of this stuff.

    The extra healing thing is nice, but you can't have that and the damage.
    You can already bind, with a third balance.
    The phase thing is interesting, I wonder if Forestwatch does the same or not...
    The hearing thing... There's a very clear sign that a room has vines in.
    Druid has two revives then.

    The totem thing is Groves, not Reclamation. It would rely on you being in a forest.


  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 741 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited October 2018
    First things first you have to understand that the pure number of skills means nothing. Druid is an incredibly powerful class, and is designed so that their skills are interlaced together.

    Now, a lot of the stuff you think you'd want from necromancy is all but useless do to the insane balance costs, and what you think is worthless in reclamation is quite the opposite. Reclamation lends passive effects which are extremely powerful, especially when they can effect an entire area.

    The first three skills are split like this purely for ease of understanding and reading, rather than cramming it all into one AB file.

    Reclamation status is important because it lets you know if others have removed your vines, and where all you have reclaimed.

    Forestwalk is powerful because it allows you to travel to your targets without needing a forest, believe it or not but every city you'd be raiding, isn't a forest. Eleusis the place you'd ideally be defending, isn't a forest. Mhaldor Isle where you would be vivifying, isn't a forest. 90% of locations for non-Eleusian god shrines, isn't a forest. Even if you could grove flow to people on your vines, needing to walk to a forest location, use grove return and then grove flow to the person is so insanely inconvient, odds are your vines will have been removed before you even got to your grove.

    Lash is a passive health killer, incredibly strong. Especially in 1v1 where one of Druid's kill paths is literally get your opponent below 50% health.

    Sleepspores is, yeah pretty useless I'll give you that. But so are a lot of other skills in other classes. 

    Windwhisper is a cool ability, you can hear what people say without them knowing. Huge amounts of knowledge. It has its uses.

    Knowledge and Omniscience, again same point above about not everywhere being a forest. Forestwatch only works if you are standing in a grove, anywhere else and it does nothing. Want to have Eleusis covered from any attempts to infiltrate, reclamation can do that.

    Poisonspores and pollen, just as strong as lash. Huge passive health damage which is important for Druids. Gives you choice between Asphyxiation or Poison damage, both of which are not very resisted damage types. Asphyxiation is arguably the second strongest damage type in the game.

    Consume, allows you to deny your enemies your corpses. Important against necromancers especially who need corpses for life essence and soulspears. Also denies your enemies their friendly corpses, to stop revive effects.

    Constrict is insane hinder, even more time entangled for a class that already has access to hydra bind. Insanely good.

    Regrowth, another way to restore exterminated land without using commodities. No downside.

    Signal, even more warning against extermination. No downside

    Smother, actually has little effect. 

    Refresh. Quite useless, in fact only niche. Because it passively restores health to -anyone- standing in your vines. Including enemies, and as I've said many times earlier. Health damage and pressure is valuable to a druid!

    Subsume, allows multiple druids to make extremely large networks of vines. Even more room control for all the effects listed above.

    Ward, lets all your damage ticking effects stay around uncontested in 1v1 combat.

    Revive, I really should not have to emphasize how powerful revive effects are let alone a mobile one like this. Having to rely on grove is not a good thing.

    Embrace, core instakill for the druid class.

    Wrath, huge damage burst to everyone standing in your vines.

    Not to mention the insane flavor, and RP surrounding druids reclaiming rooms for nature and being able to manipulate them. Having room control, is very powerful and adds to both defending your city and entrenching yourself somewhere on the offense.
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Taryius said:
    Refresh. Quite useless, in fact only niche. Because it passively restores health to -anyone- standing in your vines. Including enemies, and as I've said many times earlier. Health damage and pressure is valuable to a druid!
    Refrish is for hunting
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  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    My issue with Forestwalk is this. You need to be standing on your reclaimed land, you need to walk to all these places and lay down your Reclamation beforehand. This is probably going to get difficult if you're doing it on city land over and over.

    Lash is nice, but a saving grace means that there's a lot of bad underneath.

    Windwhisper, you KNOW you're standing on vines. 

    Knowledge and Omniscience are literally copy+pastes of Groves skills. I can appreciate Eyes and Forestwatch, I can't appreciate another version of it.

    Now I see the value of Consume, but I imagine it also stops YOU from Reviving.

    I half see the constrict/bind thing but on the other hand kind of don't...

    Regrowth is literally Rejuvenate. I don't particularly want a skillset of duplicates, personally.

    Who is going to Exterminate a Vined room?

    Smother is nice for flavour but as you said, little effect.

    Refresh is bad then...

    Ward works then, I guess...

    Revive, we already have one, this one is better but can't be used if we subsume their corpses, and can't be used on souls. Though it is mobile and free.

    Embrace seems a touch harder to pull off than Vivification.

    Wrath might be burst in a massive area, but that massive area also needs to be built up again.


    I appreciate the Mhaldorian Assurance of Skill Quality :tongue:

    I think it's a little less awful than I did when I started this thread, but it still just seems a bit off.


  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Renrifrur said:


    I half see the constrict/bind thing but on the other hand kind of don't...



    its the skill that makes it near impossible to die to occultist trying to do there main kill path. The amount of hinder this brings is insane. it hurts most affliction classes like that but like im pretty sure that if your not brain dead I just cant kill you. I would trade fool for it if you wanna take that deal. Druid is in a pretty good spot right now. Most of your complaints seem to be that there is a downside on some of your best skills........like no shit. 



    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    edited October 2018
    :#

    No.

    It's less downside more... I already have all of this, I get no more fun tools from this, can it at least work with my existing stuff or can we have fun things?

    Tarot gives you so much utility as a skill.

    It's not too often that you can say about any other class: "Wow this entire skillset is full of stuff I already have!"



  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,868 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    So... You're level 67, with 0 player kills... I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't actually used your skills in an actual fight, and are just basing your opinions purely off of the AB files...
    Druid is probably the best 1v1 class atm (and is far from lacking in group situations as well). It definitely is not in need of any buffs, or changes. Reclamation is fine as is. Not every ability has to be usable in every situation. Reclamation is far from unique when it comes to skills that have niche-used abilities.

  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited October 2018
    Groves+metamorphosis alone already gave more fun tools than most classes got. (And when it had Concoctions that was basically a zero fun tools third skill)

    If you kit out reclamation you will get awful unbalance

    Reclamation has been around for more than 3 years and in that time, it has only gotten nerfed not buffed

    You need to learn to appreciate how much druid already has as a package or gtfo because what you're asking will never happen
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  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    Being in combat doesn't change what the skills do, and it most certainly doesn't change utility skills.

    I'm not saying it needs to be buffed to infinity. It just needs to sort of... DO something.

    It really does not stand up to other skills.

    You can say that's fine because Druid is so loaded with other stuff, but it's seriously not as if other classes are in some poverty or anything, they all manage, Druid isn't largely regarded as the bestest at everything.

    It's not as if we look at other classes and go "Well the third skill isn't ideal... BUT they have a good kit otherwise!" (When we're attacking their groves, in their forests, where they have their power anyway.)

  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,265 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    wow. way to see everything through the glasses of negativity. Not gonna bother formulating a in depth response.. but..

    You get some extra utility in rezzing, eating enemy corpses to deny them from rezzing, lots of awareness and more.
    You get passive heals when you want to have them (we've used this a lot in events)
    You get extra passive damage in an already damage intensive class.
    You get a badass instakill that's very strong.
    You get -another- active hinder you can toss out at your targets. (hindering enemies is awesome)

    Who cares if other classes can do similar things....

    You should probably change your attitude around, or you ain't going to be happy with anything! Whichever class, game or life choice you make.

    image
    YselaUtianimaSherazad
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pyori said:
    So... You're level 67, with 0 player kills... I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't actually used your skills in an actual fight, and are just basing your opinions purely off of the AB files...
    Druid is probably the best 1v1 class atm (and is far from lacking in group situations as well). It definitely is not in need of any buffs, or changes. Reclamation is fine as is. Not every ability has to be usable in every situation. Reclamation is far from unique when it comes to skills that have niche-used abilities.
    i wasnt gonna bring that up since in a game where we can have unlimited characters he could be freaking Jhui for all i know.....but fair point i guess. I do feel like OP hasn't actually used any of these skills before an realized the full depth of his kit. I have never played druid before but now i kinda want to. I have also never beaten a druid either. 
    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    edited October 2018
    Two revives, yay. Unless you subsume the body.

    Passive heal used for flavouring events, yay!

    The extra passive damage isn't bad, the sleep spores are.

    The instakill is really besides the point, it was never in question, but it's literally Vivisection, which isn't bad... But Necromancy is geared towards performing Vivisection.

    Constrict feels off. That's all I'm saying.


    I've made well-developed points previously. Thanks for the armchair psychoanalysis though!



    Why do I feel like most of you are making judgements on how unfair Druid is based on fighting Druids in their own Grove?
    Especially with that Smudging comment.
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    "I've made well-developed points previously."

    Bitch where. you haven't even played druid for 12 days

    lol Someone close this thread already, literally nothing but incessant utterings from an uneducated windbag
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  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    SMUDGING COMMENT
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Why do I feel like most of you are making judgements on how unfair Druid is based on fighting Druids in their own Grove?
    Especially with that Smudging comment.
    No one is making their assessment off fighting druids in their groves. NO ONE fights druids 1v1 in their groves

    The comment was about Overgrowth - could it be more patently obvious you are coming into this discussion with completely insufficient knowledge of how druid works?
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  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,868 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    It's not "literally vivisection" - Embrace requires 4 mangled limbs. Not broken.
    Downplaying multiple revives just shows you don't have much experience in combat.
    Sleep spores isn't bad. Solo, maybe, otherwise no.
    Constrict is amazing. You can combo hydra 3rd head attacks with it, jsyk. It also lasts longer, I'm pretty sure, than hydra bind does.
    Also are you seriously downplaying passive healing? Like holy shit the ignorance, your points are not well-developed at all, and only show- even more strongly- that you don't actually have much clue surrounding combat.

    You're trying to argue with people who have (evidently) played much longer than you have, as well as arguing with people who have actually played the class for much longer than you have (and arguably one of Eleusis's best fighters). Just admit that your points don't actually have a lot of substance. Your "well-developed" points have been countered by equally as "well-developed" rebuttals, to which you've done nothing except say "Yah but da other things!!!" which isn't really a counterpoint at all. It's just you refusing to see your points... Weren't really that good to begin with. Sorry.

    Shirszae
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    edited October 2018
    Ignore what was previously here, I just realised my indignation to the comment was about the fact that Overgrowth/Smudging is literally not Reclamation.

    @Pyori So it's harder...? And... You're arguing what?

    The multiple revives is strange. Also Subsume breaks it. It's not awful. But... Why??? Groves revive is actually better, but not usable outside the grove.

    You could hit a hundred people with sleep spores and it'd still be bad. 

    The passive healing heals your enemy. Cough.

    I'm not sure on the cooldown on Constrict. 

    Hrm... Wait a minute. Duration of binds. >.>


    Being in a forestal city doesn't mean you're the ultimate authority on Forestal classes, especially when you're not one, or don't appear to be one.


    Okay, you win! We'll just wait until someone with a louder voice complains, as normally happens when I voice concerns about anything!
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Your voice is plenty loud already, made worse by an empty pool of knowledge
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  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Just don't even say anything more about it until you have actually gotten familiar with your class AND talked to veteran druids like Miriew. Or switch class if you really dislike it. Because you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

    Some of the abilities are more useful out of combat than in it, as utilities, but they're still useful. Smother is a big deal when we have a big fire problem, like when Jeramun was setting the forest on fire every ten minutes. That literally saved our sanity and made the game still playable, all the love for smother. That's just one example, there have been multiple occasions and reasons that we have cooperated to make huge vine networks covering the entire continent. It was fun RP too.
  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    edited October 2018
    @Dupre

    Hrmsure. 

    Not like there was a reason druid isn't seen much or anything like that.

    I'll come back to this in the future to gloat silently.
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 741 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited October 2018
    You obviously have some pent issues from elsewhere, with clearly little experience or knowledge on how Achaea solo and group combat works and what is actually valuable in a skillset.

    You have had many people with a lot more experience, both general and fighting as and against Druids. You are hoping between points and changing bits of your argument every post. 
    Druid isn't largely regarded as the bestest at everything

    It kinda is though. Best 1v1 instakill (Embrace) which is much easier to pull off than Vivisection with Druid's skillset. Best 1v1 defenses. Insane group contribution. OOC combat utility through the roof. I could go on.

    When you close your eyes, read only the first sentence in the AB files, have no experience fighting as or against the skills, and ignore the advice being given to you, it is very easy to get the mindset that everything sucks. This strategy also works for any class, ever!

    Not like there was a reason druid isn't seen much or anything like that.

    I'm pretty sure Eleusis has the highest percentage of citizens using their factional class. If every other faction had access to Druid (And other forestals by extension) it would get nerfed so hard so fast.

  • RenrifrurRenrifrur Member Posts: 18
    I'll be back!
    Taryius
This discussion has been closed.