Village Contracts

Penwize

Simple little idea I had to help foster some more smaller-scale conflict.  When hunting intelligent villages, there should be a chance every x kills (100? 500?) for the village to hire the ivory mark or quisalis on you.  Gives marks more opportunities for contracts (which is something sorely needed, from what I hear), and makes hunting intelligent things a bit more of a consideration.

I think it'd be neat, start adding in some conflict and intrigue to an otherwise fairly rote activity.

Asmodron

I pity any non-combatant trying to get Dragon...

Kiet

Dragon's easy enough these days that you can probably get there on animals and non-sentient entities pretty easy.

I would definitely say don't include manara and the like on the list.

Asmodron

Frankly I feel the aggro one gets by being 'hated' by a village is enough of a representation. I dont see why PK needs to be brought into this and thus later limit people's hunting locations. Hunting groups, particularly those leading younger citizens, -will- begin to avoid those areas simply out of fear that someone in their group will get a contract.

I personally prefer contracts placed by a player asking of the assassins to target someone based on a 'crime' they committed....rather than an automatic system for whacking too many mobs in a village.

I'm sure there is a far more elegant path to take, if you wish to make hunting more risky or even the Assassins more relevant.

Reyson

I like the idea!

I know it's probably a hugely tall order, but if they added denizen marks, that'd be badass. You're sitting somewhere, and all of a sudden the enormous assassin from the Den jumps out at you and kicks your ass while you're only semi-paying attention, that'd be epic. 

Kayeil

There is already a system in place for cities and Orders to generate conflict based on hunting certain denizens, this could be taken more seriously. Also, with the introduction of the Elemental Planes that is more potential conflict introduced into the game, and who knows what is to come when the Underworld opens again. I don't think this is the solution to the Marks system we need, and not a very fun change to hunting which has already had unfun changes added like gold cap.

Kiet

The main reason I'd like this system is cause it'd finally stop people from doing the horrible RP that denizens aren't real people and only players are. You could always make it not rng and make it after you get <x> slain in the area, or when your feelings villages drops to hated, or whatever else.

Torinn

Bounty from allied villages to the city they're allied with would also be cool.

Minifie

Not entirely sure what conflict this would create that can't be created already between players, unless you want noncomms to also have to deal with conflict, and we all know that doesn't turn out well -at all-.

Shirszae

Make it denizen marks picking up contracts and stalking people.  That would be incredibly awesome. Make their strength relative to the hunted area they were hired from. 

Making it a player mark would be a bad idea, I think. Hunting is one of the few things non-coms can submerge themselves in without worrying about pk (for the most part) and wanting to forcibly include them in this way is going to end up being frustrating for both parties.

Kyrra

Double xps if you kill the denizen mark!

Ismay

Ooo, I could certainly get behind denizen marks with carefully crafted strength. That sounds extraordinarily fun! A big no to player mark contracts, though. Dragon was specifically changed to divorce it from pvp, and align it with pve accomplishment. This forcefully inserts pvp into it.

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that there isn't enough conflict in this game. Everywhere I look, there is some sort of conflict. Even as a rogue. I see it constantly. There is nothing wrong with giving a small portion of the game to noncoms.

Besides, you have Annwyn for a pvp/pve mix.

Minifie

Ismay said:

Ooo, I could certainly get behind denizen marks with carefully crafted strength. That sounds extraordinarily fun! A big no to player mark contracts, though. Dragon was specifically changed to divorce it from pvp, and align it with pve accomplishment. This forcefully inserts pvp into it.

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that there isn't enough conflict in this game. Everywhere I look, there is some sort of conflict. Even as a rogue. I see it constantly. There is nothing wrong with giving a small portion of the game to noncoms.

Besides, you have Annwyn for a pvp/pve mix.

I'm all for villages being given that semblance of life and sending out new denizens that are assassin/much more powerful (or groups) to kill me for hunting them, I'm just not sold on how this creates more conflict between players. 

I clean out prin, prin puts contract on my head, gets taken by morthif, morthif kills me/I kill him, contract complete, I still have little RP reason to go fight morthif now. The denizen assassin idea is much, MUCH better.

Lenn

Denizen raids, too.

Ismay

I meant a denizen mark/assassin, not a player mark.

Kiet

Lenn said:

Denizen raids, too.

Mhaldor has these, they're fun

Nazihk

My problem with this is that pretty much every major bashing area in the game is a sentient area, aside from Azdun/catacombs, werewolves, and maybe Creville. This makes me pretty iffy on the idea, because it really seems like "If you want to bash a good area, people get to kill you for it."

I especially don't like the idea of common lowbie leveling areas like Qurnok, Moghedu, and Arcadia dropping contracts on people who are leveling for the purposes of feeding kills to people who are already, for the most part, artifacted dragons.

Kiet said:

The main reason I'd like this system is cause it'd finally stop people from doing the horrible RP that denizens aren't real people and only players are. You could always make it not rng and make it after you get <x> slain in the area, or when your feelings villages drops to hated, or whatever else.

This is something I thought a lot about coming over from Imperian, because most of the bashing areas in Imperian are things that are unambiguously 'evil'. Undead, demons, aggressive mutated creatures, etc. It's something I thought about even more when I joined Targossas, the nominal 'good guys' of Achaea, because I was wondering about being a good guy who occasionally depopulates entire towns because he's broke and wants to steal all of their money.

In the end, though, I decided that there's just not enough non-sentient options out there for it to be worth giving a shit about this. I don't mind making reasonable accommodations for RP, like Targossas does with their few restricted areas, but if they're going to make all the bashing areas villages then I'm gonna fucking bash them. If they want me to take villages seriously, they should try adding more good places to bash that aren't villages.

Kiet

Idk I bashed a good % of my way from 81-94ish on animals. Obviously more animal or not-questionable-to-bash areas would be ideal, but it's not like we're that lacking, either.

Keorin

For the people that just want to bash and not deal with any consequences, I think you could pretty easily address that by adding/expanding on a few non-sentient hunting zones at levels where there are gaps, and making it so not every group can hire. It's already pretty easy to avoid villages, there'd still be plenty of chances to zone out and hunt so long as you think about -where- you hunt.

Then for the places that do hire marks, simply boost the experience gain a bit, so that on average you're getting the same amount, or more, even assuming you die to the mark. Give it a risk/reward element, so that a hunter who hunts everything will do fine even if they take deaths, but will come off ahead if they can fend off their attackers.

Minifie

Keorin said:

For the people that just want to bash and not deal with any consequences, I think you could pretty easily address that by adding/expanding on a few non-sentient hunting zones at levels where there are gaps, and making it so not every group can hire. It's already pretty easy to avoid villages, there'd still be plenty of chances to zone out and hunt so long as you think about -where- you hunt.

Then for the places that do hire marks, simply boost the experience gain a bit, so that on average you're getting the same amount, or more, even assuming you die to the mark. Give it a risk/reward element, so that a hunter who hunts everything will do fine even if they take deaths, but will come off ahead if they can fend off their attackers.

It still doesn't answer the question as to how this builds any conflict... I'd still hunt them all, end up fighting over a couple of contracts, go back to bashing it all. It would just mean that I have to hunt in w/e is my anti-gank class. If you want to have this, make allied villages alert the city when they are hunted, and make one midbie area and one dragon level area. You can then appease everyone easier that way.

Keorin

Minifie said:

It still doesn't answer the question as to how this builds any conflict... I'd still hunt them all, end up fighting over a couple of contracts, go back to bashing it all. It would just mean that I have to hunt in w/e is my anti-gank class. If you want to have this, make allied villages alert the city when they are hunted, and make one midbie area and one dragon level area. You can then appease everyone easier that way.

It builds conflict by providing more mark contracts, mostly, which is one of the biggest issues with that system right now. And the contracts could be posted some time after you hit the threshold in an area, so you'd be less likely to have to watch out for the gank while you were hunting.

The big advantage, in my mind, is for roleplay and immersion. Right now, most denizens are treated like walking bags of gold and experience, unless they start talking (and then everyone cares the moment a single one dies). Having them actually take some sort of recourse when they're attacked could go a long way to making the world feel more lived in, and making the decision to hunt villages feel a little more impactful.

Minifie

Keorin said:

Minifie said:

It still doesn't answer the question as to how this builds any conflict... I'd still hunt them all, end up fighting over a couple of contracts, go back to bashing it all. It would just mean that I have to hunt in w/e is my anti-gank class. If you want to have this, make allied villages alert the city when they are hunted, and make one midbie area and one dragon level area. You can then appease everyone easier that way.

It builds conflict by providing more mark contracts, mostly, which is one of the biggest issues with that system right now. And the contracts could be posted some time after you hit the threshold in an area, so you'd be less likely to have to watch out for the gank while you were hunting.

The big advantage, in my mind, is for roleplay and immersion. Right now, most denizens are treated like walking bags of gold and experience, unless they start talking (and then everyone cares the moment a single one dies). Having them actually take some sort of recourse when they're attacked could go a long way to making the world feel more lived in, and making the decision to hunt villages feel a little more impactful.

So it gives something to do for marks and covers the cracks over a mark system that is in dire need of work. Adding Denizen assassins/thugs/groups to gank bashers later does this much better, and doesn't alienate people who would REALLY prefer, or avoid, conflict. I'm still really unsure how more contracts adds more to conflict and player interaction either, since I'll recourse against the village itself, the mark is just a middleman, so why not just have denizens there too instead?

Kogan

This death was an assassination paid for by bored people. The reason was: Playing the game.

Seems legit.

Nazihk

I feel like mark contracts won't generate any real conflict unless they happen to provoke raids or happen to help people sanction raids. That's pretty iffy as a conflict mechanic, imo. Most of the combat I see originating from this is going to be Dunn/Atalkez/Proficy crushing noncoms for bashing Moghedu.

And in return for that, I feel like you will see a decline in participation from noncoms as bashing is one of their primary activities in the game and adding PK into bashing is going to reduce the numbers of them willing to do it, especially when it's focused on the good areas. And especially when it's not even 'PK right now but I got away from it and it's good', but "PK on me at some point in the future when I'm probably not expecting it". I think lowbies will get frustrated and angry when Dunn pops them for bashing Moghedu.

I just don't think it's a tradeoff that's worth making. The gains are very marginal, but the costs in reduced activity are potentially quite high.

If the RP is the thing and you want people to care about hunting denizens, I think you'd be far better off having areas dispatch denizen assassin teams to add a bit of threat to bashing villages.

Kayeil

I think Nazihk makes a great point. I'm not sure if he'll agree with the rest of my opinion, but some of the ideas proposed start to feel anti non-com and only pro-pvp. At some point this game can't be all conflict, all pvp all the time. The non-coms have to have SOMETHING to do without having to be forced into a conflict with a PVPer just because the PVPers are bored playing in the sandbox with each other and want to kick sand at the PVEers who don't even fight and won't even pose a real threat or challenge to begin with. The admins just gave you the elemental planes to go kick sand in, and I'm sure they'll give you other things to have fun with in the future, but hunting does not need a major overhaul to favor PVPers and Marks to make it an unfun and unappealing activity for non-coms and PVEers. As has been said before, you just got your veil and gem changes to make the game "feel" bigger. It's going to stop feeling bigger when only PVPers are left.

Telendrieth

I... actually really love the idea of them hiring NPC folks to come after you. I'd definitely make this tied to the place hunted, and keep the assassin's strength just a few bars above what that area offers. Like sending a gnoll assassin for the people who hunt Manara out every once in a blue moon (That way we don't get soul crushing monstrosities hunting down nublets). With all of the new mechanics added to mobs, these would be a decent ground to add in a few simple player abilities to the mobs as well. A gnoll assassin enters the room, pinshots your foot with a hand crossbow, before beginning to try and take you down. could see some neat stuff coming from it, that also helps to make the villages and NPCs seem just a bit more lively. 

Keorin

In my dream way for this to work, there would be a way for players that share a race with the village to pick up contracts at a bounty board before they get passed on to an assassin, or for there to be a way for players to become bounty hunters for a village, thus giving people who want to roleplay defending the place their character grew up some sort of options (outside of the absurdly difficult organization ally system). That would give more interaction between players, too.

Denizen assassins would make the whole notion pretty meaningless, in my mind. Like, you hunt out an area, and then later have to deal with another denizen, which is just going to mean bonus gold/experience (thus making it more of a reward, then any sort of risk)? I think what makes the idea interesting in the first place is that it would give actual consequence to IC actions. It would mean that someone who would really prefer to avoid conflict would actually have to roleplay a character that avoids conflict, instead of being a mass-murdering thief.

To keep it fun for the people who hate all pvp, be a bit selective about what areas can hire (leave out manara and goblin village, for instance), and add in a few high-capacity areas to replace ones like Moghedu. Realistically speaking, there's already a ton of bashing areas that are nearly ignored, in favour of a handful of really popular ones, and many popular ones already have some risk attached (Quisalis, for instance). How many villages does your average pve-only player actually rely on?

Edit: Alternatively, do a mix. There are plenty of villages that might prefer to handle assassinations themselves, but have the more peaceful ones  (or the ones populated by player races or something) actually hire.

Lenn

Mostly I like this for the immersion elements @Kiet mentioned, as someone with a meagre 10 denizen kill count, I can't comment on the details much as they won't affect me...

But is it seriously that hard to avoid being a ruthless murderer? o.o

I of course also support more ways to get gold and exp without being a ruthless murderer. So many quests assume that point that it's kind of sad.

Penwize

So, I'm a little confused.  What's the difference between a player killing you for a contract, and a denizen killing you for a contract?  Or, what's the difference between killing a player to cancel a contract and killing a denizen to cancel a contract?  I mean, except for the obvious fact that one of them is player interaction, and the other one lets you pretend it's a single-player game.

I'm kind of confused how you can NOT consider a mark contract player conflict.  It's small scale conflict, sure, but I think small scale conflict is what Achaea's massively lacking right now.  No shortage of raids, true, but what about little fights? Barely any of those, and the mark orgs are dying due to lack of reasons to hire these days.

As for having options, there's already a whole lot of places to hunt that aren't village denizens, but we could always use more of them just for the RP anyway.  Meropis is chock full of places to hunt that aren't villages, of pretty significantly varying types.  Seriously, I don't think there'd be a shortage of places to hunt for people who'd rather avoid the occasional player interaction.

Would agree that certain low-level areas (Manara, Actar) shouldn't generate contracts, but I'd say everywhere else should to some degree.

Klendathu

Things like the Stormshaper in the Seat of Vastar / Arcadia could make things spicier... there's a random chance, modified by village feelings, for an uber* mob to come out in defence of the area. It could be made so it can spawn anywhere in the area, rather than in specific, avoidable, locations.

*perceptions of uber may vary. The value of your investments can go down as well as up. Eat your five a day. Don't eat yellow snow.

Shirszae

Penwize said:

So, I'm a little confused.  What's the difference between a player killing you for a contract, and a denizen killing you for a contract?  Or, what's the difference between killing a player to cancel a contract and killing a denizen to cancel a contract?  I mean, except for the obvious fact that one of them is player interaction, and the other one lets you pretend it's a single-player game.

Hunting is pretty much a single-player game activity anyway. It has been repeatedly stated that group hunting is not worth it and nothing has been made to fix this. So I don't really see why some bored, likely artefacted dragon should get to kill someone putting up with hunting and struggling to reach Dragon.

If you are that starved for pk then go raid or something.