Order Stagnation!

Caled

@Wicella
Dormant orders suck, but are also an opportunity for a really rewarding experience. If the order membership isn't accessible, use a clan. Build something fun up and sooner or later someone will be interested in playing the role. But it will take a long time so settle in for a long haul - or don't bother.

Don't tread on the toes of the existing/established order members if you don't have to, but don't be afraid of just doing it without them either. Far better to be inclusive but if they're practically dormant themselves don't think you can't lead it yourself.

Have fun, and by doing so you'll attract others, including someone to play the divine character as well.

Mercer

Alrena said:

That's not true. You don't -need- a Divine to have a good org, and Eleusis has always had a strange anti-Divine citizenry. Divine were fine if they handed out gifts and socialised somewhat, but once they tried to steer or even nudge the village? Besides, it wasn't the Divine who really steered the (previous?) direction, that was me, Ellodin and the other Hierophants at the time. The Divine -supported- that direction, but even the Viridian Charter was meant to be interpreted in ways that allow you to choose either peaceful means or violent ones.

Sooner or later, someone will pick up a nature god again, probably. But there's absolutely no reason that Eleusis can't work on making an inclusive forestal faction that caters to both those who prefer peaceful Nature, and those who like the more savage and violent aspects of Nature. I'll admit having an active Divine who makes things happen can really make an org come to life, but you can still do that. It just needs good leaders who make things happen instead, even if it's not on the same scale.

I find it interesting that any time the subject of (in)active Gods come up, I hear this argument advanced the most by people playing in organizations that do in fact have active Gods.

Strictly speaking, you are correct. No city needs an active God to operate.

It is a question of quality. When a City goes over a RL year without any form of admin so much as checking in, the cultural identity of the place starts to deteriorate. The systems of leadership can get abused, or just become less relevant. People start caring a lot less. The organization stops being an engine that drives conflict and roleplay and becomes more like a chat room of people loosely associated by friendships and a dim overall notion of community.

On modern Achaea, race has become fluid. Class has become fluid. Most of the new Houses are overly general, and draw their meaning from their Cities rather than Cities drawing from their Houses. Gods serve an important function in that they periodically refocus and support the cultural identity of a City. When you strip away ALL of these pillars, you get an organization that is suffering a severe handicap. Particularly when the focus becomes so blurry that the players themselves can't agree upon it.

Melodie

Mercer said:

I find it interesting that any time the subject of (in)active Gods come up, I hear this argument advanced the most by people playing in organizations that do in fact have active Gods.

I guess maybe your character is young enough to not know, but Alrena was Speaker for Eleusis during a time that their Gods slowly left. If you did know, then you're not making your points very well.

Even if she hadn't been, Mhaldor has been through several (sometimes excessively long) stretches without Gods. It's painful in its own way, but it doesn't make anything she said any less true.

Mercer

Melodie said:

Mercer said:

I find it interesting that any time the subject of (in)active Gods come up, I hear this argument advanced the most by people playing in organizations that do in fact have active Gods.

I guess maybe your character is young enough to not know, but Alrena was Speaker for Eleusis during a time that their Gods slowly left. If you did know, then you're not making your points very well.

Even if she hadn't been, Mhaldor has been through several (sometimes excessively long) stretches without Gods. It's painful in its own way, but it doesn't make anything she said any less true.

Why does this in any way invalidate my points? The Gods left and then so did she. She is now a member of the organization that has one of the most active (and frankly badass) Gods in the game.

As for Mhaldor, I was around during your dry spell. Before the Lord Sartan role got filled, your playerbase was pretty darn minuscule. Now you are almost always in the top three in terms of active players. I'm not saying Sartan is the only reason for your current success, but it is a big part of it.

Kiet

Mercer said:

Melodie said:

Mercer said:

I find it interesting that any time the subject of (in)active Gods come up, I hear this argument advanced the most by people playing in organizations that do in fact have active Gods.

I guess maybe your character is young enough to not know, but Alrena was Speaker for Eleusis during a time that their Gods slowly left. If you did know, then you're not making your points very well.

Even if she hadn't been, Mhaldor has been through several (sometimes excessively long) stretches without Gods. It's painful in its own way, but it doesn't make anything she said any less true.

Why does this in any way invalidate my points? The Gods left and then so did she. She is now a member of the organization that has one of the most active (and frankly badass) Gods in the game.

As for Mhaldor, I was around during your dry spell. Before the Lord Sartan role got filled, your playerbase was pretty darn minuscule. Now you are almost always in the top three in terms of active players. I'm not saying Sartan is the only reason for your current success, but it is a big part of it.

Man you love talking out of your butt. She left Eleusis when it had -two- gods, to join Mhaldor when it had zero.

Hashan and Cyrene have also been the two biggest cities for a while, and neither had any gods for like a rl year.

Alrena

I've been a part of Eleusis before Gaia and Artemis returned. I was Speaker when both of them were active, for the record, and I left when both were still active.

I joined Mhaldor when Sartan was not active for a good while. I'm not entirely sure what the time frame was, but it was before the Underworld war. Either way, you can choose to invalidate my points because of a factor that is current right now, and disregard any and all experience I have had before hand. It's because I've been in cities both with and without active Gods that I can with the utmost certainty tell you that what I said previously is entirely true. Gods can nudge. But Gods will more often support a direction they feel is good or interesting that comes from player initiative. Especially in a city like Eleusis that isn't a theocracy. Active Gods -help-. But involved and motivated leadership is what makes an org solid.

Farrah

It's also a lot more fun to be a god, I imagine, when you don't have to shut down drama, crush dreams, and scold people just to get some semblance of unity and respect in the city. So, in Eleusis's case there's a lot for players to do before a god is really needed for more imo. Eleusis actually uniting behind their goddesses' ideals would be a good start, and doesn't really require them to be active.

If you feel you can't fix your org without a god, chances are a god doesn't want to have to fix it either.

Cooper

I can feel Eleusis's pain not having an active divine right now.

Been in that situation, and it can feel helpless. Mhaldor definitely felt this way without Big S.

Best advice is to keep your head up and do things you imagine a divine would do if they were there. 

Rangor

If you have need of someone to worship, there is always Rangor.

Puxi

It's a trap

[Deleted User]

Mercer said:

When a City goes over a RL year without any form of admin so much as checking in, the cultural identity of the place starts to deteriorate.

Do keep in mind that the ones training to be a god get to choose where they go. So it's less "admin checking in" and more "people don't want to play with Eleusis" that is the problem. Generally speaking you're gonna need to work together for more than week before deciding "well I guess nobody wants to be a god" and giving up for a month.

Puxi

Pyori said:

Mercer said:

When a City goes over a RL year without any form of admin so much as checking in, the cultural identity of the place starts to deteriorate.

Do keep in mind that the ones training to be a god get to choose where they go. So it's less "admin checking in" and more "people don't want to play with Eleusis" that is the problem. Generally speaking you're gonna need to work together for more than week before deciding "well I guess nobody wants to be a god" and giving up for a month.

I have to agree with Pyori here. Show them you deserve and are ready for ian admin before demanding that it happens. Blaming the admins or past people/events for the situation you are in today won't do you any good.

The change has to start within. Be that change. I believe in your Eleusis of tomorrow.

Mercer

This narrative that Eleusian players drive off Gods therefore we don't merit a Divine is just not true. It probably was true when the Gods quit, but we have been through several sets of Hierophants since then. The leadership is totally different and a lot of time has passed. I'm sure one or two problem players will appear out of the wood work, but you can't blame an entire City for that.

If no one in the Garden likes the concept of what we are enough to play a God for us, maybe the fundamental concept of what Eleusis is needs to be rewritten.

[Deleted User]

As someone who recently retired from Eleusis, I'm just gonna say the people there aren't "totally different"

There's still a number of toxic people there that have remained since. Just because they're not leadership that doesn't really mean squat, when people still listen to them.

Eleusis hasn't done the complete turn around they try to say they have. They've shaped up more in recent times, but to say it's completely new and different is... Wrong. And to reiterate what I said: if you want people to notice you, and have a divine again, you're gonna have to keep up the "we're good people" thing and not just say fuck it when you don't get noticed after a couple of weeks. Look how long it took Mhaldor to get Sartan back initially, or how long it took Ashtan to get a patron that stayed with them. (not talking about Babel's return, as cool as it is)

Aegoth

Mercer said:

This narrative that Eleusian players drive off Gods therefore we don't merit a Divine is just not true. It probably was true when the Gods quit, but we have been through several sets of Hierophants since then. The leadership is totally different and a lot of time has passed. I'm sure one or two problem players will appear out of the wood work, but you can't blame an entire City for that.

If no one in the Garden likes the concept of what we are enough to play a God for us, maybe the fundamental concept of what Eleusis is needs to be rewritten.

A lot of the people who drove off the Divine you had are still active in Eleusis. They may not all be leaders (a handful of them are), but they're certainly present, and there's a reason that Eleusis is still seen as a joke. Get rid of the problem players, and rebuild your org's attitude from the ground up, and maybe you'll get an Admin who wants to play with you guys the way Nature is intended to be played

Tahquil

How many people do you think are in the Garden? It is possible that all members are already sitting in god roles and they just happen to not be the ones some people want.

Kayeil

To be fair it isn't just, "Does Eleusis deserve my attention to fit this God role?" or "Is Eleusis interesting enough to interact with?" You also have to think does that volunteer like that God role, the lore behind it, and all of that... because this is a role playing position and it should be one they're going to enjoy and have as much fun with as they can. I know if it was me, the forestal stuff has never been my cup of tea, and so those roles would be lower on my list of what I'd like to choose in that situation. They aren't required to fit a role just because it's needed. After all of the work they put into getting that far as an admin they get to pick who they want to be.

Mathilda

Gaia and Artemis are pretty amazing, lore-wise. Gaia has that whole "Nature is enduring and relentless" aura, while Artemis is the "behold the unstoppable wrath". If you include Lupus, he's the feral and loyal aspect of packs. It's just that, historically, these godly personas have been derided by the anti-combat, "Nature is loving and we love everyone even cities" population, some of which still retain membership in Eleusis.

[Deleted User]

Mathilda said:

some of which still retain membership in Eleusis.

Most.

Minifie

Pyori said:

Mathilda said:

some of which still retain membership in Eleusis.

Most.

I warned Lyrin about those firm handshakes at atop

Accipiter

Aegoth said:
 Get rid of the problem players, 

That seems... I dunno, super harsh? The admin made the faction, made it attractive to a certain group and then they don't support it because it attracted some dicks?

I understand that it is all volunteer gods that do the RP side but still the solution shouldn't be drive away active players if you want to get a god.

Torinn

It's not driving them away.  Maybe Eleusis isn't a good fit for them, there is no shame in that.

[Deleted User]

Accipiter said:

Aegoth said:
 Get rid of the problem players, 

That seems... I dunno, super harsh? The admin made the faction, made it attractive to a certain group and then they don't support it because it attracted some dicks?

I understand that it is all volunteer gods that do the RP side but still the solution shouldn't be drive away active players if you want to get a god.

problem players. Keyword. Unless you think it's healthy to keep around toxic individuals, in which case... ?????

Nazihk

Alrena said:
But there's absolutely no reason that Eleusis can't work on making an inclusive forestal faction that caters to both those who prefer peaceful Nature, and those who like the more savage and violent aspects of Nature.

This doesn't work. It's never worked. Not here, not anywhere. Imperian went so far as to make two forestal organizations in an effort to avoid this problem and then both organizations had this problem. 

The problem is that peaceful nature fills up with people who loathe PK and savage nature fills up with people who like it. If it were just a matter of RP it would be possible to bridge that gap somehow, but there's no real way to come up with a role that will simultaneously satisfy both the "not happy unless fighting" and "absolutely hates anything that causes PK" crowds.

Kiet

I don't get why we need 3 cities that cater to isolationist pacifists

Alrena

Nazihk said:

Alrena said:
But there's absolutely no reason that Eleusis can't work on making an inclusive forestal faction that caters to both those who prefer peaceful Nature, and those who like the more savage and violent aspects of Nature.

This doesn't work. It's never worked. Not here, not anywhere. Imperian went so far as to make two forestal organizations in an effort to avoid this problem and then both organizations had this problem. 

The problem is that peaceful nature fills up with people who loathe PK and savage nature fills up with people who like it. If it were just a matter of RP it would be possible to bridge that gap somehow, but there's no real way to come up with a role that will simultaneously satisfy both the "not happy unless fighting" and "absolutely hates anything that causes PK" crowds.

If it doesn't work, it's because people are actively making it not work. You have several cities who can manage this bridge just fine. It just comes down in really building and reinforcing a culture that says that it's okay to be violent and anti-city, but it's also okay to be more nurturing, peace-loving. They -can- co-exist. They just first need to accept that it's possible, then understand that the problem lies with the players themselves. In my experience, the people who make the biggest fuss about this being impossible are exactly the people who are creating it in the first place.

Now, as I said before, no God can make the above happen. They tried, both of them, so I know this for a fact. It needs to come down to leaders driving that culture forward. Both in the Village and both Houses. I understand Eleusis seems better off, but I worry the next time someone tries to take a step forward to be anti-city Nature, it will flare up again. I could be entirely wrong here, but I also have to say that many people who were problematic during my time as Speaker are very much still active.

Wicella

Eleusis does not cater to pacifists.  The Eleusian Oath makes you swear to defend Nature, but that doesn't make everyone militaristic.  Every single villager of Eleusis contributes in some way, shape, or form to Nature's defense.

The Heartwood Kin are not a pacifistic faction. They believe in an emphasis of DEFENSE over OFFENSE. 90%+ of the Heartwood Kin are active patrollers, defenders, or rejuvenators. 

The Scions of the Ithmia are not a militant faction. They believe in furthering Nature's influence through all means; be it conversion, combat, raiding, ritualism etc.

Eleusis' patrollers check every single room of almost every area each IG year for missing plants, fires, exterminations, and changes. For a long time this even included Mhaldor's subdivision, until guards made it impossible to get into.

I repeat that every single Eleusian that is above House rank 1 is serving Nature, be that through patrolling, combat, providing supplies, or teaching novices.  Eleusis has nothing to be ashamed of. It is not without ideals. It is not corrupt. And it certainly isn't full of internet trolls, because we have a zero tolerance policy for that unlike other places.

So while we might not have a divine, and heck we might never, it's not because of our players.  We have a fabulous playerbase full of kind and amazing people.  We have pretty great RP, and we are improving on it every day.  I am proud of how far Eleusis has come since I first started playing in 2012.

...

And with that, this thread is for CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on how to prevent orders from dying out while waiting for divine to return, and improving city RP when their faction Patrons are not around.  Everyone else feel free to carry this conversation on in the Sewer section, where it belongs.

Kiet

Step 1 to solving a problem is admitting you have a problem.

Minifie

Wicella said:

Eleusis does not cater to pacifists.  The Eleusian Oath makes you swear to defend Nature, but that doesn't make everyone militaristic.  Every single villager of Eleusis contributes in some way, shape, or form to Nature's defense.

The Heartwood Kin are not a pacifistic faction. They believe in an emphasis of DEFENSE over OFFENSE. 90%+ of the Heartwood Kin are active patrollers, defenders, or rejuvenators. 

The Scions of the Ithmia are not a militant faction. They believe in furthering Nature's influence through all means; be it conversion, combat, raiding, ritualism etc.

Eleusis' patrollers check every single room of almost every area each IG year for missing plants, fires, exterminations, and changes. For a long time this even included Mhaldor's subdivision, until guards made it impossible to get into.

I repeat that every single Eleusian that is above House rank 1 is serving Nature, be that through patrolling, combat, providing supplies, or teaching novices.  Eleusis has nothing to be ashamed of. It is not without ideals. It is not corrupt. And it certainly isn't full of internet trolls, because we have a zero tolerance policy for that unlike other places.

So while we might not have a divine, and heck we might never, it's not because of our players.  We have a fabulous playerbase full of kind and amazing people.  We have pretty great RP, and we are improving on it every day.  I am proud of how far Eleusis has come since I first started playing in 2012.

...

And with that, this thread is for CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on how to prevent orders from dying out while waiting for divine to return, and improving city RP when their faction Patrons are not around.  Everyone else feel free to carry this conversation on in the Sewer section, where it belongs.

It doesn't have to be militaristic, but minus a few who vivify every few days, there is 0 presence felt from Eleusis to external cities. Mhaldor is probably the ONLY city that even feels that presence! There was nothing during the elemental war, during Syndra's ascension to Lord Marshal there was som banter, yet there was 0 response from eleusis, during shout matches and "world raid tours" eleusis gets left out, partly because it's a non-factor, and partly because raiding eleusis turns mostly into a PvE battle of attrition. At no point, other than silly shouts does Eleusis even deliver a presence. The last instance I can find is Kiet at the beginning of the elemental disturbances with Mercer. 

Internally, Eleusis may work really hard, and they may feel the backbone of each others labour, but anyone looking for a God role is going to be looking at multiple factors, one of those is including the external effect a city is having. At the moment, Eleusis just. . .  Exists? Sure, you can keep coming back to vivify us every 2 days, or every day, but all that does is give us a skirmish and move on. No other City will feel it, the world as a whole won't feel it, and it just means when Mhaldor has the numbers to come easily curbstomp guards we'll probably detonate a tank here or there. At this point, other than "why not loosis?" is about the only RP reason we have to go plunder it, and honestly, Nature is a big enemy to evil, and same in inverse.

Wicella

Guys, seriously. I want this thread to be for ideas on how people can better their rp and prevent order stagancy. People of all organizations. I do not want it to be about bashing Eleusis.

It's the Golden Dias of Creation, and negativity isn't creating any solutions. If you want to talk about how bad Eleusis is, by all means create another thread titled such in the Rants section. Just please leave this one alone for people that are creatively looking for solutions to a common problem.