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Artefact Packages

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  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,771Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    Lenn said:
    Why would I try to convince the person I'm arguing with? Or try to convince @Xaden? Both are wastes of time.

    @Atalkez already views artefacts as an investment. There's no way he'll want to hear "let's make them less valuable so people can have fun without them." It's already a huge yet carefully calculated step to suggest selling the cheaper ones for a lower price...

    And Xaden is Xaden, a troll, airhead, or both. o.o
    Actually, I would support that. Anything to make more people try the game, and stick around, I’m supportive of.

    Let’s not start slinging mud. Your post made next to no sense, Xaden isn’t wrong. You suggested an idea, flesh that out better, because it’s a good one that has been denied before.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,315Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lenn said:
    Why would I try to convince the person I'm arguing with? Or try to convince @Xaden? Both are wastes of time.

    @Atalkez already views artefacts as an investment. There's no way he'll want to hear "let's make them less valuable so people can have fun without them." It's already a huge yet carefully calculated step to suggest selling the cheaper ones for a lower price...

    And Xaden is Xaden, a troll, airhead, or both. o.o
    Ah, ok, so that's why nothing you posted made any sense, because you didn't feel the need to make any valid points. Awesome. 
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Leviticus
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 1,148Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 11
    If you decrease the value of Arties, people who've spent thousands on them will have been cheated (ish).

    I support the basic Artie package

    Mostly cus I'm poor


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    Lenn
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,771Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    Aralaya said:
    If you decrease the value of Arties, people who've spent thousands on them will have been cheated (ish).
    This in particular isn't true, or shouldn't be. Like I said earlier, unless they purchased it recently, they got exactly the value they paid for; for however long they've owned the artefact. Their thing isn't devalued because someone is going to get it slightly cheaper 6 months, a year, 5 years later.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    ShirszaeDochitha
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 1,148Member @ - Epic Achaean
    That's why I said ish. I know at least a few will feel cheated, even if in reality they aren't


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 1,148Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I think I might have misread things.
    I read it as Lenn wanting to devalue Arties, which I disagree with.
    I agree with Kez


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 3,046Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People being so utterly selfish about something being made cheaper for others, instead of being able to look at the bigger picture and how it'd benefit the game as a whole, will likely be the end of it.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    AtalkezAralayaLeviticusPrythe
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 527Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I think we need to table this conversation until the Admins decide to participate in this discussion. If @Sarapis doesn't agree with any of this, we are just debating for fun and I'm sure we all have better stuff to do. 

    Honestly, I'm sure they've had this internal discussion and they have the numbers to do the math that is required to see if this is a smart business decision that net/net makes them more money... but here we are. So either a) it didn't pencil b) too many assumptions had to be made for it to pencil and c) they just don't see the need to change it for new players that can't make the investment. 

    Regardless, great ideas, I agree with most of what is said. I'm someone that has purchased some high value artefacts recently and I wouldn't feel cheated or want a refund if tomorrow some of the changes were implemented with a clear strategy and reasoning in mind. But, I also understand I'm just one person and my opinion may not be echoed by the community.
    Aralaya
  • LennLenn Posts: 154Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Actually my argument is that there should not be any "basic necessities" that cost hundreds of dollars, and that the basic necessities of a free game should be free.

    This forum and my phone don't agree though, so it's annoying posting her. x.x
  • ShubShub Posts: 56Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 11
    Thanks for the parry tip, I will tweak my stuff accordingly!

    I got an ale horn, 1 vial, a quiver and a crafting design folder from the January giftbags but I spent a lot of credits to get those. The bonuses made it more fun to buy credits but they were mostly things that I wouldn't have bought otherwise. 

    In December I stayed away from stockings/elemental talismans and took advantage of the big credit discount to make a dent in my purchase queue (I spent around 10k cr). I felt that I couldn't really participate in the stockings game whilst being so far behind in my regular purchases because to do so would be an inefficient way to spend. If I keep buying at my present rate I'll have my artifact needs mostly filled before next year assuming no new essentials come out(which is unlikely), only then will I be playing games with these talisman sets and promo items. I'm really happy that new stuff is coming out (the tome of muses is awesome), I just hope the rate is slow enough to allow me to 'catch up' to the competition at a reasonable budget.

    My newbie experience so far is going like this:
    -Awesome time in Minia/Lodi. Make friends, kill a rat king, eliminate a dire threat.
    -Nearly overwhelming confusion post-minia about tattoos, elixirs, curatives and equipment (helped a lot by the city academy).
    -Good times in Actar, struggle to understand questing without @Romeo and @Juliet's assistance (I still have frustrating problems with questing).
    -Hurdle of curing confusion in the Xhaiden swamp. I had to walk back to the city while half frozen at one point because I wasn't familiar with caloric. (This was the beginning of my forum scouring, svo installation and scripting research, you probably lost a lot of newbies here before there was server side curing).
    -Long boring grind in Manara, learning my battle rage abilities, much confusion about defenses, exploration to other places resulting in many swift deaths. I kept motivated mainly by envy of others and eagerness to contribute to city activities. I could see a lot of newbies dropping around here as life gets repetitive and the flow of new abilities from level lessons slows down. I compensated for this slowdown with the no-brainer purchases. I probably wouldn't have done that without the positive newbie experience and the city motivation.
    -The grind migrated to Phereklos, experiments in other places caused many deaths, My first mudlet UI efforts, installed the popular rage tracker, vitals bars, room console, chat panel, etc. A 'mudlet starter kit' of some sort would be very welcome around here because many folks won't be as into scripting as I was and the nexus client lacks a lot of conveniences, maybe I'll make one. I kept getting sucked into scripting then murdered by squids and hydras while in the other window. I still get killed by denizens while scripting fairly often, its my own fault I know.
    -Level 70, struggle with bashed out areas, settle into a creville/qurnok rotation with occasional trips back to phereklos, pretty much no questing at this point because all info has dried out and experiments with guessing room interaction verbiage, denizen conversation topics, who to give items to, etc. were maddening time wasters compared to just killing things. Puzzle and conversation interaction needs to be more multiple choice and less 'password cracking' in my opinion. I suspect most people who are good at this are swapping bootleg quest hints in external venues like skype/discord/etc. (I promise I wont snitch on you guys, please let me in, I can offer collateral. I'm joking).
    -Level 80, bashing difficulty spike, the dun valley guards finally drove me into my first major credit purchases, trans avoidance, soa, bracers, con belt, health sip were my first. I only did those because I had an unexpected financial windfall around this time. Once I bought my first artefacts the slippery slope began.
    -Shortly afterward - an empty moghedu drove me to buy the travel artefacts to traverse the wilderness areas in a reasonable time. wings, riding, collar, dash etc. Discovered the crowdmap.
    -More deaths brought more artefact purchases, level upgrades, regen, collar, diadem, crit, miniskills, int sash. Starting to learn which denizens to avoid.
    -My first major round of item decay struck, I had lost small things here and there before but not like this. I began pursuing the 'convenience' things like perm tattoos, resistance rings, etc, some denizen kept taking my pipes when I died to him, ugh. I might get that repair tool to fight the decay monster but it's low on my purchase list.
    -First time getting locked in wegava, all my limbs were broken and I was paralyzed! it was time for curing priority research, most non-basic information that conveys 'advantage' seems closely guarded, many experiments, some results, frustrating and interesting at the same time, city was helpful, still a long way to go.
    -First PK experiences, entirely losses, drives purchases of vision, buckawns boots, start using the svo namedb feature, huge hurdle of scripting for highlights and reactions, ongoing and difficult process. I now have both a credit spending list and a scripting projects list, sorted by priority.
    -Mid 80s, need to contribute to the city intensifies, newbie excuses no longer valid, still feel inadequate. Large hurdle of storyline history to cross, days spent in libraries and asking questions.
    -Chasing the dragon, mogedu + Isaia + Morindar + tenwat always bashed out, LHG still too tough, cant take 3 steps in Anwynn without getting ganked, still dying way too easily. Need to reach the Meropis, need to reach the islands, need to die way less often. Questing frustration from all the room puzzles inspires purchase of explorer tome. Combat frustrations drive purchase of class artefacts, weaponry skill, spurs, stealth artefacts, dash, shackle, etc. Discovered pastebin, wow there is some drama in that history. Bought a Lyre, holy crap what a huge difference that one made.
    -Elemental crisis, eager to participate but not strong enough, level chase intensifies, feels like I'm the only kid in class that didn't get the cool new toy, I just want to be a part of the game arrrgh.

    I remember being near tritrans+survival with just the iron elite, no brainers, and bonus 2500. I didn't have any problem making those purchases but the baseline artefact hump did hurt at first.

    I'm determined to get over these artefact, scripting, strategy and puzzle hurdles. It has been an enjoyable challenge so far. I agree that most new folks are getting turned away by the trans skill cost and entry level artefacts. The money barrier looks especially daunting from the bottom, especially when compared to other games on the market. The forums are full of posts along the theme of "I'm not spending 500 dollars for text swords." I had no problem with it myself but I would like to have more people to play with.
    AtalkezTysandrPrythe
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 1,008Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Interesting perspective.  I've been playing for two years now (I think?) And I remember not getting any arties at all until I started getting into PvP.  I knew I wouldn't measure up, I would go with the group when it was there but other than that my playtime was RP focused.  Only when I was determined to get good at combat did I start seriously coding and getting arties.  I think this is the same for most people.  However, I didn't need arties to be competitive with people in a similar situation as me.  I needed them to "catch up with the Joneses".  I still haven't really caught up in a lot of ways, mostly due to experience and coding, but the point remains you can be competitive at any level and Arty amount as long as you aren't comparing yourself to the damned Joneses
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,632Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Your base argument that trans miniskills, vision, and level 1 bracelet, sip ring, regen, and con is "required" to compete or play is flawed. None of these are required.

    You can also compete at any level of PK without artefact purchases. Are you going to be at a disadvantage 100% unartied vs. a fully level 3 artied person? Hell yes, and that is the intention of artefacts. With the exception of very few things (that have been fixed, or are being looked at, or need to be presented to be looked at), no class -requires- an artefact to 1v1 or group fight.

    I do agree that base class skills should be obtainable without an outside purchase at a reasonable level (70-80).

    TorinnXiasLeviticus
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,303Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I didn't disagree with dropping prices. I merely said it is already happening just not straight forward, and also not cheap enough to the extent / fashion people want it to be.

    Devaluing existing Artefacts are fine, it is market. Though it will decrease escrow total that affects bidding or trade in, so just need to make separate versions and still acknowledge the original trade in for those who bought it before changes. 

    Lenn
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 523Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    My suggestion about making class skills more easily accessible had a lot to do with what Tesha articulated. Yes, it'd be nice to get basic artefacts at 55% off or whatever you suggested, but for someone starting Achaea, a $25/mo subscription is probably more palatable than a couple hundred bucks or whatever, because unless you're already in deep, that kind of money will sound a bit funky. 

    In the interest of making the game more playable and fun to people starting out, I really think that lessons are the way to go; I know we disaree on what you 'need' in order to play the game and get access to a lot of its content, and that's probably not something I can convince you of, which is fine. 

    However, if we were explaining this to a hypothetical person we're recommending Achaea to as a new hobby, how many people do you personally know you could say to, "Hey come play this great game, they've put in a new deal where you get defensive advantages for 250 bucks (or whatever it ends up coming out to)!" And it'd get a "Yeah, cool, I'll check it out."?

    I dunno how close IRE's margins are on Achaea, but I rather suspect that securing subscriptions from more people might be a good idea, rather than securing fewer big purchases. 

    That said, for the retiree/alt community, that'd be gold, to be sure. I suspect people would alt more if they could get arties at that price. However, I just don't see that kind of discount getting okayed, hence my argument that some kind of way to secure cheaper access to class skills might be a better avenue to pursue.
  • LennLenn Posts: 154Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I would assume it's the other way around, that mainly big spenders fund Achaea. o.o

    Not that smaller spenders don't have a place in the revenue, just that it will take a lot of Iron Elite subscriptions to match a single enthusiastic big spender. ^^;
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 527Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The big spenders aren't buying entry level artefacts though.
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,989Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I dunno, have you SEEN my flowerpot collection?


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    XiasPrythe
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 523Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    That's the way it has worked, traditionally. But I can't imagine regular subscriptions from more players'd be a bad thing! 
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 523Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Yeah, I laughed so hard about that today :D 
    Dochitha
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,632Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Reyson said:
    How's the delete veils campaign going, for example?
    :wink:
    Terribly, they weren't deleted!

    TaryiusMinifie
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,771Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You’re wrong and should feel bad about it.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • GilliamGilliam Posts: 42Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Would be ideal if on the way to 80 you learned all your class skills without having to use any of your bound credits. I think the initial progression of unlocking skills is important to the game and it keeps people who are underleveled(and thus underhealthed) out of things like combat where they'll just get stomped and it's nice to have those periodic goals on the way to logosian. Letting people keep their bound credits would keep them thinking and planning what their first big buy was going to be and likely would foster the belief that they can actually earn their way to what they want. I have several friends who are super interested in Achaea and have made character but just ended up shying away when we logged on together and they realized they couldnt really do anything. Wanna be a smith?? You totally can but wait first use all your lessons on your class skills or you're basically a paperweight with a hammer.
    Cailin
  • AshmondAshmond Posts: 25Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 16
    Bumping this thread, so all the main solutions are on one post from everyone, which are the following:

    - Allow core skills to be gated around levels, this would mean getting to level 80 would allow Tri-trans, Avoidance and Survival (Bonus allow mini skills to scale like Battlerage)
    ^ Primary class only (Ignoring multiclass here), this way the No-Brainer packages could be used for something else instead of having to use both of them just to Tri-Trans and maybe one other like Avoidance or Survival.

    - Artefact Package 5000 lessons (2.5 skills, or all miniskills), L1 con, L1 sip, L1 regen, L1 bracelet for $250
    ^ Once per character only

    - Put L1 Artifacts behind memento walls that are permanent but can’t be customised/upgraded (or upgraded at l1-l2 difference+2/3rds of level one cost, so upgrading con 1 to 2 would be 866, not 600) would be a great boon for everyone.

    - Allow L1s to be obtainable in game via quests. Upgrading to L2 would still be the entire cost of a L2 and or difference+2/3rds of level one cost.

    - Bring back a permanent free wheel equivalent. Play for more than an hour a day, grants lessons, experience, credits (bound only) and a low chance of Artifacts (L1s only).

    - Iron Elite should make you count as tri-trans in your first class, plus Avoidance and Survival.

    Tagging admin: @Sarapis @Nicola @Makarios

    Potentially not all valid, but just to make it 100% clear here, this is not to try and compete/catch up with top or even mid tier, it's to allow new players to have a basic entry point with regards to lessons and Artifacts (Talking just L1s here, nothing more) without having to spend nearly $1000 to do so. All the above ideas really just include core skills and L1 Artifacts only, if you wanted to upgrade to L2/L3 IRE would still get money, Sailing, Tradeskills, Mining, Multiclass, PVP and all other areas would be the same.

    If even a few ideas from the top where done (First point mostly), I would recommend this game to friends and family, until then it will never happen due to the huge cost for entry level.

    Edited: Fixed spelling mistakes only.
    Xias
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 337Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I feel like the Achaean team has always been receptive to us. I have a 63K escrow and I was pissed one month during the Black Wave Events because their Servers were absolutely garbage and I spent around 5K in two months on Achaea during this time period. My purchases alone could get you a beast of a server not to add in Zulah's, Penwize, Doch and all the rest of the people who spend a lot of money on the game during that period. I bitched in one of the forums and the within a few DAYS they had a new hosting company. I mean damnnnn, that was fast. I started playing this game when I was in 5th grade. I came back to it over the years because of the people and now the events & people. For me, I started building my escrow by the monthly promotions, especially the discounted artefact packages. I would literally save up money to throw a lot at it during (usually November or December) the correct promotions.They were and still are incredible. I spent 5K real monies during the Black Wave and came away with 30K credits on top of what I got, so that was a win. Now I just buy credits and give them to newbies in Mhaldor (who are vetted) or old veterans who haven't gotten a nice surprise in a while.

     I like the fact that all things should be achievable in game. Thank you @Atalkez ; for starting this idea. But I would also like to remind you that people like me and the rest of the high spenders were at one point those people who had to make tough decisions on what bills to pay too!!!

    I believe this needs to be seriously addressed if @Sarapis wants to continue growing and making Achaea great again! (Not saying that it isn't now).
    Xias
  • DevranDevran Posts: 577Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Shirszae said:
    People being so utterly selfish about something being made cheaper for others, instead of being able to look at the bigger picture and how it'd benefit the game as a whole, will likely be the end of it.
    Interesting post. I'm not going to state whether I disagree or agree with it, but I want to ask you and everyone else a question.

    Why shouldn't I be selfish? Why should I care about other peoples financial ability to invest in something that I have invested in?

    Can you state a reason related to Achaea that isn't "Because if you don't the game will die." ?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 3,046Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Devran said:
    Shirszae said:
    People being so utterly selfish about something being made cheaper for others, instead of being able to look at the bigger picture and how it'd benefit the game as a whole, will likely be the end of it.
    Interesting post. I'm not going to state whether I disagree or agree with it, but I want to ask you and everyone else a question.

    Why shouldn't I be selfish? Why should I care about other peoples financial ability to invest in something that I have invested in?

    Can you state a reason related to Achaea that isn't "Because if you don't the game will die." ?
    Because if the game ends then you lose your investment and ability to use it completely and irrevocably? But really, the one you outlined is the only argument that matters for the sake of this discussion. If you don't care about the health of the game you are of course not going to give a shit no matter what argument people use.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • DevranDevran Posts: 577Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 17
    Shirszae said:
    Devran said:
    Shirszae said:
    People being so utterly selfish about something being made cheaper for others, instead of being able to look at the bigger picture and how it'd benefit the game as a whole, will likely be the end of it.
    Interesting post. I'm not going to state whether I disagree or agree with it, but I want to ask you and everyone else a question.

    Why shouldn't I be selfish? Why should I care about other peoples financial ability to invest in something that I have invested in?

    Can you state a reason related to Achaea that isn't "Because if you don't the game will die." ?
    Because if the game ends then you lose your investment and ability to use it completely and irrevocably? But really, the one you outlined is the only argument that matters for the sake of this discussion. If you don't care about the health of the game you are of course not going to give a shit no matter what argument people use.
    I was just curious to see if you or anyone else was able to give a reason that didn't involve the end of the game. I never said I was against what was being proposed.

    For example, there's definitely the possibility that someone is out there who enjoys having the advantage of artifacts and lording it over people who doesn't and were they to lose that, the game might as well be dead. The game ending wouldn't be a compelling reason for them to give a damn.  So I wanted to see if there is an actual argument for someone like that which wasn't the game closing its doors.

    It's a thought experiment.
This discussion has been closed.