Artefact Packages

Ashmond

The problem is not trying to compete with top tier people artifact wise or even coming close to it, but its the huge cost to get basic entry level base artifacts (L1 Defensive and L1 Weapons), Main Class + Core Skills, is just too expensive for a new starter without having to spend silly $$ or ££ in order to do so.

This becomes even worse if you have a main class, which took ages to get kitted out and want your first class slot for multiclass:

• 7500 lessons for tri-trans = 1250cr ($388)
• Two L1 Scims if you wanted DWX = 700cr ($230)
• That's $388 just to try a new class using multiclass or having to buy 2000cr at roughly $600 just to use a class at entry level with L1 Weapons.

^ This is for the first slot, not even going to comment on 3,4+ and trying to bash 2000cr just to try a new class would take ages to bash up.

Reyson

Before you get to the stage that you need artefacts to be top dog, you have a long time of learning and practicing ahead of you, though. If you wanna be top dog, okay, that's a huge investment of time and effort and money. It's true that ccumulated fortunes are hard to overcome, but how often do you -need- to beat one of Achaea's whales 1v1 to enjoy the game?

Eta: not saying you're wrong, necessarily. Just that in terms of new players, that artefact wall is something that won't really make or break Achaea for them, I suspect. 

Sobriquet

Not everyone will 1v1, sure, but a lot do. Also, you don't have to want to fight to still want to use some Trans abilities or benefit from utility items as Wings or warp sticks

Reyson

As a new player, would you really miss a warp stick or wings, though? My point is that people tend to look at this through an old Achaean player's point of view. 

If you have your class skills off the bat and get survival with no brainers, you can do most things in achaea, from bashing to raiding, really. 

Aralaya

From a new player's view, lack of Arties is really inhibiting. I don't get why people who have played this game and seen costs increase over time wouldn't have a valid point in saying it's difficult for new player's though.

Atalkez

Reyson said:

Sure, but what's the context in which having a list of arties that big really matters? 1v1, right?

How many people actually 1v1? 

Point 1: umm, bashing, group pk, forays, tree...all become dramatically different when you begin adding arties.

Point 2: That’s the point though. Less people 1v1, because the people that do 1v1 are so much more artied than them, what’s the point? Would you really ask a lvl 80 if he wanted to fight me or Farrah or Proficy? Even someone like Mezghar? We wonder why it’s dead, but ignore the elephant in the room. Joe noob with 3800 health (4200 health of con spec) wants to fight, finds someone willing, gets melted with damage by even a mid tier guy: why would they come back?

I think you’re being a bit too generous about what you can reasonably accomplish in Achaea these days without some basic things.

Aralaya

Atalkez said:

Reyson said:

Sure, but what's the context in which having a list of arties that big really matters? 1v1, right?

How many people actually 1v1? 

Point 1: umm, bashing, group pk, forays, tree...all become dramatically different when you begin adding arties.

Point 2: That’s the point though. Less people 1v1, because the people that do 1v1 are so much more artied than them, what’s the point? Would you really ask a lvl 80 if he wanted to fight me or Farrah or Proficy? Even someone like Mezghar? We wonder why it’s dead, but ignore the elephant in the room. Joe noob with 3800 health (4200 health of con spec) wants to fight, finds someone willing, gets melted with damage by even a mid tier guy: why would they come back?

I think you’re being a bit too generous about what you can reasonably accomplish in Achaea these days without some basic things.

This. That's the reason why I haven't done 1v1 except in rare cases for bounties.

Reyson

Sure. But 'make arties so everyone can catch up to people who've spent money over 20 years' is an unreasonable position to take.

I'd rather suggest something on the actionable side of an argument rather than wish candy fell out of the sky. How's the delete veils campaign going, for example?

An IRE subscription for a year will net you 2 decent defensive arties, if you don't have to buy tritrans + survival, especially with the no-brainer credit package, for a person getting into it who's pretty serious about playing. That already is a pretty good platform to start from, when you include the lessons you get daily that you can put into things like avoidance and miniskills for damage mitigation for bashing.

Atalkez

Reyson said:

Sure. But 'make arties so everyone can catch up to people who've spent money over 20 years' is an unreasonable position to take.

No, I don’t think it is. Not if Achaea wants to maintain relevancy for the future and have a healthy population.

Aralaya

He isn't saying "catch them up to everyone else".
He's saying let them get some basic Arties that are a huge barrier to doing anything

Alyxeri

Reyson said:

An IRE subscription for a year will net you 2 decent defensive arties, if you don't have to buy tritrans + survival, especially with the no-brainer credit package, for a person getting into it who's pretty serious about playing. That already is a pretty good platform to start from, when you include the lessons you get daily that you can put into things like avoidance and miniskills for damage mitigation for bashing.

That's still $300. God help you if you're not in the US and have to pay anywhere from 1.5-2x that amount (yay currency fluctuations). That's also over an entire year, I wouldn't consider that a reasonable timeframe by any stretch of the imagination. That's also only 1825 lessons, assuming they login every single day- which is also a stretch for quite a large quantity of people.

Reyson

No argument against currency fluctuation- it sucks, but I don't know how to get around that.

$25/mo is pretty standard spending for avid gaming, I think?

5 trans skills + 1200+ cr is a huge amount more than I had at the end of my first year of playing Achaea, to be sure. Seems actionable, even though I suspect management won't go for it, but I happen to feel that'd be a good first step.

ETA: For the record, I don't like the artefact gap more than anyone else who's posted here. But, just as in classleads, it seems that suggesting measured, small steps rather than pushing for huge leaps, is more likely to lead to a change than otherwise.

Antonius

I could, possibly, see reducing the cost of level one artefacts significantly, while retaining the current prices on level two and three artefacts. That way you can get a decent number of introductory level artefacts for a reasonable price, but with the understanding that if you want to go higher than that you're going to have to spend the same amount as everybody else has in the past.

Unfortunately that's the only change I see as being viable without alienating the people who currently make large purchases (saying "hey, thanks for all your business over the years, but it's now possible to get everything you've spent thousands of dollars on for a fraction of the price" isn't likely to go down well).

Shub

I'd be willing to take a credit reimbursement after price reductions. Full would be nice but I'd take a reasonable percentage

Atalkez

The original suggestion was offering a package of the base things for a fraction of the cost, exactly as Antonius just suggested.

I specifically said not changing the price of credits or the later artefacts, so I’m not sure how it’s suddenly turned into this massive undertaking.

Essentially it’s a no brainer defensive set, that’s still got a decent cost ($250 suggested), while also being a lower entry point in comparison. It’s an attractive offer, imo.

Once per character, I don’t see it as being a negative at all.

I don’t think that’s alienating anyone, and is something that is absolutely feasible to accomplish without changing a ton of things.

Edit: No, you wouldn’t get a credit reimbursement, are you joking? Prices are subject to change based on things that may happen. The only way you would get a reimbursement is if you bought something and it changed a week later. If you’ve had something for a month or longer, why would you be entitled to anything? That’s absolutely silly and selfish. Think about the good of the game, not your personal interests.

Aegoth

I'd be willing to just take the hit for the good of the game and help make Achaea a healthy, affordable community, instead of worrying about reimbursements and succumbing to the capitalist mindset that has destroyed the moral fabric of humanity

Dochitha

Wheel has given out many Arties to many people . The stocking also afforded people with fire pendants, and still many on sale close to redeem price. I think more people have pendant, belt, shackle and more basic arties these days through promos. It is already happening that new players are getting arties easier, without really discounting on the value. I think this is a smart thing to continue this rather than lowering prices directly.

Aralaya

I've legitimately never gotten an artefact from a wheel. It's the same with most people I talk to. Plus, spending enough money on stockings, globes, the like is a huge risk. You could get really good artefacts, or you could get nothing. You can spend way more on these promos and get less than $250 for a package of basic Arties.

Edit: and while there are people who get amazing Arties from the wheel they are few and far between

Atalkez

Dochitha said:

Wheel has given out many Arties to many people . The stocking also afforded people with fire pendants, and still many on sale close to redeem price. I think more people have pendant, belt, shackle and more basic arties these days through promos. It is already happening that new players are getting arties easier, without really discounting on the value. I think this is a smart thing to continue this rather than lowering prices directly.

Gambling promotions are not the answer, and to think that displays you aren’t even attempting to understand the problem from any standpoint that isn’t your own.

Torinn

I agree with a lot of these points, especially the Arty package, but I do have to say I do not think arties are necessary.  If you want to compete with top combatants, then yes.  But as a new player, competing with a top combatant was something g I knew I wouldn't be able to do, so intentionally tried to fight lower tier combatants that I knew I could handle.  I don't think it's a bad thing that someone gets crushed by a top tier combatant, the combatant is there due to practice, time, and yes arties.  The person challenging them should be realistic in their expectations and go for someone their level and with their amount of arties (if any).  All that said, I do think Arty package would be great especially for the benefit to bashing, not so much the PvP side.  For those who played Eve, I equate the top tier combatants to be flying machariels with officer mods and this person thinking they should have a chance is flying a t1 kitted mission Raven.  The Challenger shouldn't really have a chance unless they bring buddies, think outside the box, or get themselves geared up.  This is the nature of PvP.  This is why I don't agree that arties are "necessary" unless you want to be a top tier combatant in which case yeah you'll probably have to start shelling out.  Reducing prices or selling packages will aid this as well as hunting.

Lenn

@Atalkez He's disagreeing with you, doesn't mean he's dumb.

But it is pretty questionable that you want to make a class more reliant on artefacts in one thread while arguing artefact reliance is bad in another.

Lemme spell this out to you: the biggest source of stat boosts is artefacts. +3 from an artie equals +3 from a trait and spec, plus having every tanking artefact makes it easier to spec in stats other than Con.

If you make a damage-based strategy more reliant on Str, either you want to buff Dochitha, or nerf everyone without his staggering amount of artefacts.

I think you're the one thinking about this in the wrong light, honestly. Make classes and activities less reliant on artefacts, not make them more reliant but then make artefacts cheaper. The current gaming climate is increasingly hostile toward pay-to-win or pay-for-perk stuff even outside Achaea, no one will think $250 is a good deal to just "get started" except the rare folk who are mostly already here and have already paid even more than that. Cut it in half to $125 and it's still an awful deal.

For example, not to do with stats (as much), I've wanted to classlead adding ways to make temporary artefacts (basically all the Shop of Wonder consumables) via either trade skill or farmable talisman pieces.

Atalkez

I never said he’s dumb, Dochitha is one of my favorite people in the game, which I’m sure he knows, and the conversation about DW not scaling well isn’t really comparative to this topic either. It isn’t about whether or not the class is less artie dependent, it’s that having the investment doesn’t actually do anything for the class. We designed the class specifically to reduce the need for arties, and it’s worked great. The class will never be artie reliant, that’s the entire point. That doesn’t mean that having them should do nothing for you.

Not sure how $250 is a terrible deal, but $1000 isn’t? 

Lenn

I spelled it out, I think. You'll just have to consider viewpoints other than your own now. o.o

Xaden

You spelled out something that made next to no sense, based on a false pretense, and then basically said 'it's my opinion, so deal with it'.

Fairly certain nobody is required to consider your viewpoint at all. 

Torinn

Temporary arties is a good idea

Iohanna

This probably won't help with a large chunk of the issue, but I think lucrescent nuts and rare minerals are being a bit under-utilized. I can really only talk about myself, but I think if the time limit were extended even just a bit, they would get more use. Since people were flooded with lucky sips in promotions, I can easily get a sip lucky for 15k or less that lasts me an entire day of hunting. 12 hours. However, for the same price usually, rare minerals last only an hour. I personally rarely use these because of this fact, and am likely doing myself a disservice. 

Maybe make lucrescent nuts and rare minerals last for a little bit longer to see potentially more novices jumping into the fray? 
I don't know how much this would actually help, but I wanted to at least try to offer something.

Xaden

Lucrescent nuts lasted for 24 hours up until around six months ago. It was reduced to one (and upped to two) because people were never learning class skills.

I doubt the playerbase would argue with increasing the duration of either of those, but the admin will.

Lenn

Why would I try to convince the person I'm arguing with? Or try to convince @Xaden? Both are wastes of time.

@Atalkez already views artefacts as an investment. There's no way he'll want to hear "let's make them less valuable so people can have fun without them." It's already a huge yet carefully calculated step to suggest selling the cheaper ones for a lower price...

And Xaden is Xaden, a troll, airhead, or both. o.o

Aralaya

When you can drop a class, get a new one, and go to tri trans for a full day for no lessons, there's something wrong.

Iohanna

I really don't mean 24 hours, 12 or even 6. 

Personally speaking, I'd buy them out daily if they lasted one to two more hours. Three hours for lucrescent nuts and rare minerals? Yes please.