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Artefact Packages
This is something that I've been thinking about for a while. Often, when we hear complaints about Achaea/IRE model, it's centered around pricing of items and pricing of credits directly. For instance, if you want a level 1 sip ring, con belt, bracelet and regen ring - that's going to set you back 1550 credits (~$475) for the basic of the basic defensive items. I understand that these things are priced "fairly" by IRE standards, but let's just be honest: they're not. $475 is double my car payment, or a PS4 with 3 entire games, or a multitude of other things that you can spend equivalent money on. I could book a round trip cruise from Galveston, TX to the Carribean for 1 person for $460.75 (I just checked through Carnival). I'm all for IRE making as much money as possible, but at the same time, I think some common sense needs to be applied if we intend to continue maintaining success further than 2019-2020.
The last time prices were adjusted, unless I'm mistaken, was ~3 years ago, judging by Announce 4290. While some artefacts were reduced in price, credit prices weren't changed. On top of that, the artefacts that were reduced arguably were items that don't have high use to begin with. None of the defensive items were reduced, with the only thing on the list that I even own being the Greaves and Lifevision - and I'm by no means a poor person in Achaean credits investment terms. SoA and Diadem (high use) were raised in price.
As we move into the future, with artefact creep, it's simply going to become untenable for new players to reasonably catch up - if it isn't already. Talismans have been introduced that are widening this gap, though a lot of effort is going into balancing these things so that they don't have massive implications. I don't believe a $7,00-$10,000 investment should be required to play the game at a high level. At the same time, I don't think a $1,000 investment should be required to play the game at a base level.
Assuming Tri-Trans, Trans Miniskills, Trans Survival, Trans Avoidance, Trans Vision, L1 Bracelet, L1 Sip, L1 Regen, L1 Con Belt (This is what I would consider the basic of the basic setup for anyone, and anyone that knows anything about the game would suggest this as a "goal to work towards") - you're looking at roughly 3000 credits, or $1,000 (factoring in the no brainer purchases, and the lesson conversion bonus new players get, lessons and credits received for leveling to 80). That's before adding an SoA, Riding, any niche things like Seafaring/Tradeskills etc. So, I think this is a fair estimate for a 'base' investment for a character that intends to have any sort of success across the spectrum of the game - hunting, combat, etc. It was brought up that all Miniskills aren't necessarily a base requirement, which is true. The reason I am including this is that, as I said earlier, artie creep means you have a magnitude more people walking around with full offensive output - so conversely, it stands to reason that, you will want to maximize your defense for the cheapest possible cost. Miniskills offer a nice reduction for a cheaper cost as compared to something like the Ring of Magus, etc. You're welcome to add/remove things as you see fit - but I think the $$ number won't fluctuate much. $750-$1000 depending on what you believe the setup should be. If anyone wants to do more intensive math, be my guest!
I suggest that Achaea introduce artefact packages, similar to the no brainer packages. Instead of slashing prices of artefacts or credits (though I would totally be down for a mass reduction in prices across the board), I think leaving them the same while also providing a cheaper means of achieving a basic form of investment is a good idea. Something like 5000 lessons (2.5 skills, or all miniskills), l1 con, l1 sip, l1 regen, l1 bracelet for $250. While this would reduce the up front cost for these items, it lowers the barrier of entry pretty heftily - while also leaving the upgrade option down the line the same. So a new character, for $325 (no brainer lesson+no brainer credits+no brainer artefact - which is not a small investment for an online game in the slightest), could reasonably get a solid amount of bang for their buck. Quick math indicates, for those items, roughly a 55% discount.
It may not be pretty to look at, or to think about, but I think ignoring the problem is not a good thing to do as we move into 2018 and beyond. One look at the Reddit thread about Achaea should be more than enough indication that it is a problem, and should be discussed openly and honestly. I'm sure I speak for quite a lot of Achaeans by saying, we want the company to remain healthy and continue to provide us content. My concern is that, even if we are able to increase new player creations (unique creations) - they're going to simply be turned away by the fact that it costs so damn much to become 'decent' by any factor that you can come up with.
Every conversation I have with a new player, honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, when discussing lesson investment/requirement and things that they reasonably need. Any interest in combat, you're going to want all of these items, and that's not even considering things like weapons, or utility artefacts like buckawns (please just delete or re-purpose this already) or veil or lyre or reflect wand or portal wand or warp stick. If you're a hunter, you want all of these plus critical hit pendants. Short of logging in purely to chat room or strictly for RP purposes, you're going to want these basic items.
I just think it's time we be serious about this conversation, as our player base has largely progressed from teenagers to adults with jobs/families and financial responsibilities where actual price points should be considered appropriately by any responsible person before investments are made.
Happy to hear others thoughts on the matter!
The last time prices were adjusted, unless I'm mistaken, was ~3 years ago, judging by Announce 4290. While some artefacts were reduced in price, credit prices weren't changed. On top of that, the artefacts that were reduced arguably were items that don't have high use to begin with. None of the defensive items were reduced, with the only thing on the list that I even own being the Greaves and Lifevision - and I'm by no means a poor person in Achaean credits investment terms. SoA and Diadem (high use) were raised in price.
As we move into the future, with artefact creep, it's simply going to become untenable for new players to reasonably catch up - if it isn't already. Talismans have been introduced that are widening this gap, though a lot of effort is going into balancing these things so that they don't have massive implications. I don't believe a $7,00-$10,000 investment should be required to play the game at a high level. At the same time, I don't think a $1,000 investment should be required to play the game at a base level.
Assuming Tri-Trans, Trans Miniskills, Trans Survival, Trans Avoidance, Trans Vision, L1 Bracelet, L1 Sip, L1 Regen, L1 Con Belt (This is what I would consider the basic of the basic setup for anyone, and anyone that knows anything about the game would suggest this as a "goal to work towards") - you're looking at roughly 3000 credits, or $1,000 (factoring in the no brainer purchases, and the lesson conversion bonus new players get, lessons and credits received for leveling to 80). That's before adding an SoA, Riding, any niche things like Seafaring/Tradeskills etc. So, I think this is a fair estimate for a 'base' investment for a character that intends to have any sort of success across the spectrum of the game - hunting, combat, etc. It was brought up that all Miniskills aren't necessarily a base requirement, which is true. The reason I am including this is that, as I said earlier, artie creep means you have a magnitude more people walking around with full offensive output - so conversely, it stands to reason that, you will want to maximize your defense for the cheapest possible cost. Miniskills offer a nice reduction for a cheaper cost as compared to something like the Ring of Magus, etc. You're welcome to add/remove things as you see fit - but I think the $$ number won't fluctuate much. $750-$1000 depending on what you believe the setup should be. If anyone wants to do more intensive math, be my guest!
I suggest that Achaea introduce artefact packages, similar to the no brainer packages. Instead of slashing prices of artefacts or credits (though I would totally be down for a mass reduction in prices across the board), I think leaving them the same while also providing a cheaper means of achieving a basic form of investment is a good idea. Something like 5000 lessons (2.5 skills, or all miniskills), l1 con, l1 sip, l1 regen, l1 bracelet for $250. While this would reduce the up front cost for these items, it lowers the barrier of entry pretty heftily - while also leaving the upgrade option down the line the same. So a new character, for $325 (no brainer lesson+no brainer credits+no brainer artefact - which is not a small investment for an online game in the slightest), could reasonably get a solid amount of bang for their buck. Quick math indicates, for those items, roughly a 55% discount.
It may not be pretty to look at, or to think about, but I think ignoring the problem is not a good thing to do as we move into 2018 and beyond. One look at the Reddit thread about Achaea should be more than enough indication that it is a problem, and should be discussed openly and honestly. I'm sure I speak for quite a lot of Achaeans by saying, we want the company to remain healthy and continue to provide us content. My concern is that, even if we are able to increase new player creations (unique creations) - they're going to simply be turned away by the fact that it costs so damn much to become 'decent' by any factor that you can come up with.
Every conversation I have with a new player, honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, when discussing lesson investment/requirement and things that they reasonably need. Any interest in combat, you're going to want all of these items, and that's not even considering things like weapons, or utility artefacts like buckawns (please just delete or re-purpose this already) or veil or lyre or reflect wand or portal wand or warp stick. If you're a hunter, you want all of these plus critical hit pendants. Short of logging in purely to chat room or strictly for RP purposes, you're going to want these basic items.
I just think it's time we be serious about this conversation, as our player base has largely progressed from teenagers to adults with jobs/families and financial responsibilities where actual price points should be considered appropriately by any responsible person before investments are made.
Happy to hear others thoughts on the matter!
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Ignoring the Trade Skills, Battlerage and Dragonform, the above has cost me 20,451 lessons. That's 3400cr (Not including Lesson packages, admittedly so can take 2000 off that, or the lesson convert bonus) but you are still looking at $600-$800 to have just have abilities to use. That's more than the monthly payments on both my cars plus the recent PS4 VR kit i just bought, with 2 games.
To make this newbie friendly and make true newbies feel they could actually take part, we need to let them tri-trans from the outset. There is such a massive gulf between them and established players they are never going to catch up unless they spend $1000's. That said, you'll probably then see even more retirees artied out their backsides at 18 as they wouldn't have to spend anything on class lessons.
I looked at changing class and race on my alt earlier, it'll cost me around 500cr to do that, or just shy of $170. The upshot is that I won't pay that and It'll take a very long time at lvl 80 to hunt those. If I want to change my mind on something IG, or change city (If class is faction tied) i'm going to have to pay the costof 2 or 3 Full price AAA PS4 games.
It's a trick balancing act for the admin though.
That's if you want it immediately though. Iron Elite greatly reduces the cost if you're willing to wait. If I haven't messed up the math somewhere, $660 over two years will get you there (although you can certainly earn a few hundred credits in-game in that time, so it will actually be less).
Those details aside, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.
@Sarapis @Tecton @Makarios @Nicola, interested in your thoughts on this.
The alternative is not great either at 1 credit requiring 10k× gold for the above base requirements stated above (skills, L1s and basic supporting artifacts), even bashing to Dragon does not trans all class skills and say survival or avoidance, you have to pay to use all your class skills or bash for credits to convert lessons, thats even before purchasing artifacts. Add in multiclass and it's even more crazy.
House credit sales are not that common and normally limit you to a few dozen, this should be improved for new players as well, sure there is something that can be done to aid Cities with this.
Maybe we can extend what Iron Elite gives.
Have a free daily wheel only equivalent with chances of bound credits and lessons, L1s, etc.
Adding to this, my main class is DW. I was thinking about a new class, but the cost to multiclass my first slot and get basic artifacts for PVP is just too expensive, I either shell out nearly $600 (not going to happen, cannot afford, have responsibility and a house to support) for lessons to tri trans and two L1s yes I said L1s, or I have to ditch my main class and trade in artifacts to get the same. Or spend like 8 months bashing hours and hours a day.
I do think the above and what @Atalkez stated is a very, very serious issue for new players (and shrinking playerbase), we can't assume existing players will stick around forever, either.
In total to get a 2 artefacts (3 if top hat counts?) and 12 skills, I've spent, probably upwards of $500 dollars.
That's without the artefacts that Atalkez listed, and the rest of my Mini Skills.
Shit's expensive yo.
Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
Leveling to 80 gives roughly 600 lessons and 200cr (another 1200 lessons), $70 will get you 3800 no-brainer lessons, plus 2500 bonus lessons from credit conversion.
That leaves only 7167 lessons through typical credit purchase to Trans class+Avoid+Vis+Surv+7 minis, or 1195 credits. Plus 1550 credits for "L1 defensive set", is how we reached the <3000cr sum.
That changes my numbers to $950 total with ~670 credits left over or $675 with ~430 credits short (which can be made up with promotions; 20% bonus credits will just about cover that). $495 over 17 months with Iron Elite.
meropis pebble, fire/frost bracers and armor+prybar are my likely next purchases.
Not sure if getting a weapon for parry would be useful (as an alchemist)
I have not even had level 1 con a year yet. Am I really so bad at spending that, as a frequent combatant, I've not even been at the basic level for most of my Achaean life? First Ashtan giving me down the road about my lack of shackles, and now Kez gonna call me out on my con? I'm hurt.
That said, I can't imagine myself recommending Achaea to a friend knowing they need to spend a grand just to really get involved in the aspect I love most about it. I think tritrans should be a given at this point. Survival most likely. Some of the abilities moved to "general skills" or freebies if not. Tunnelvision and squint requiring lessons is just insane.
IRE has also tested reducing Artefact prices during discount promo.
So things are really getting cheaper.
But I think most people's concern here is the overall perception that the game is expensive.
However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less.
I think Achaea is a very quality highly detailed game, and it has the ability to carry a "premium" price. And I am not sure if lowering prices will increase overall revenue given the fact that Artefact is a one time expense, unlike buying gems or coins in other games that is setup for players to just grow a bigger number but always staying at the same spot on a singular scale. Stupid clash of clans, kings, tribes, wives.
To be frank, though, you aren’t exactly a good measuring stick for what is acceptable and what isn’t. You aren’t someone who has to save Elite or bash up credits to get something. You just buy it. I think it’s a bit disingenuous for you to be sitting at 50,000 escrow or whatever you have, and say the pricing model is okay. Of course you think it’s okay, you aren’t one of the people that struggles to keep up, or can’t reasonably buy anything more than the Elite regularly. Temper your opinions based on the people around you, not specifically what affects you.
Edit: You know people who spend $300 a day on mobile games? I know people who spend $300 a month just to eat, and that’s their entire budget. Not everyone sits at the same income level you and your friends do.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I also don't think it's fair to price text games in the same way graphical games are. Whereas games with huge playerbases can drop to bargain basement prices for their content, I don't know that text games really can. With the amount of development that's being done, I'm willing to pay to support the coders/creative directors to keep the momentum up but I do like having perks for the investment too. That said, I think there's a balance that IRE needs to find in order to draw in new players.
I'm a firm believer that if gamers get truly invested in IRE, they'll stay to help support the growth and culture. With Starmourn coming out this year, this is the perfect time to take a look at how to draw in and retain more players.
As far as House/City credit sales like @Ashmond mentioned, we can't even do those too often because we get like 90% non-credit promos, so houses and cities have had extremely limited credit income lately. It seems like the policy is to starve the orgs/players of other ways to get credits, which is kind of messed up.
The only caveat is that some would abuse the hell out of artificially inflating mementos value on this, but IMO 200 mementos for lv1 bracelets would still be achievable in a month or two, while spending bashing gold/credits on lessons for a new character. This simply allows them to work in tandem with each other.
on top of this, you can make a new command: RESOLVE PERSONALLY, so if I RESOLVE 100 player kills, I get the current reward, if I PERSONALLY RESOLVE 100 player kills, I get double payout in bound mementos. With the right number tweaking, becoming heavily artied will still cost $$$$$, but the ENTRY LEVEL EXPERIENCE becomes more palatable.
Please don't use the "but you can bash for credits!" argument. Do the math on that, and apply it to a new player's perspective, before using it as a reasonable point.
Would you do it?
Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
That way, you can get going pretty well right out of the gates for $25, but you have to either keep the subscription active until you quit, or you need to burn resources learning the class skills that you already have access to.
You'd need to do something about changing classes, though.
This is literally how I got my first lot of credits when I started playing Achaea at age 13. To be honest, had I not gotten those first lot of credits I probably would have quit playing, and CFS prices were a lot more reasonable back then.
The issue I have with "you can bash for credits" is this: Yes, people can bash for credits. But there's a finite number of denizens in the game, and the number of denizens that actually have gold drops that make buying a large amount of credits possible is even smaller. Person A might be able to bash enough to make some credits, but if they're doing that person B can't. It's possible for some people to bash for credits, but it's not possible for everyone to bash for credits, even if everybody playing the game had unlimited time to spend bashing.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
1) Effective credit prices have dropped a lot compared to before, you can take it as sort of "reduction"
2) Artefacts have also been discounted at times, which is another discount
3) They just didn't fix the perception that the game is expensive, even after these reductions
4) The prices here doesn't mean people are paying more here than other games
5) The quality of the game so far is good, affording them the ability to carry an "expensive" perception
6) All artefacts are "spend one time, enjoy a lifetime" deals
EDIT: Next time I will just write in point form.
People are definitely paying more here than in other games, too. I can play dota 2 at any level I want without spending a single dollar ever, you can play even gacha mobile games for cheaper than it takes to get a basic arty package in achaea.
"Quality" is not really a good excuse when plenty of other f2p games are extremely high quality (the aforementioned dota 2, path of exile, warframe). Achaea obviously offers unique things or none of us would be playing it, but there's tons of extremely high quality games that you can get for under $60 lifetime, and a bunch more you can play for free.
There was a recent news story of a guy who spent like over 10k usd on microtransactions across multiple games recently and it was considered a shocking story. I'd wager there's a bunch of people on Achaea who've spent that or more and no one even gives it anything more than a shrug, pointing to a skewed perception of what's proper value.
Your arguments are based on assuming every other game is just as expensive and also worse in quality, which is demonstrably false.
Which isn't to say that it's a reasonable hobby to get someone interested in. I do like the suggestion of Elite giving you tri-trans functionality, and, let's be honest- people who spend a lot on Achaea aren't people who're just getting started. It's people who're rooted in and really interested that trickle in money here and there. I've not heard of a ton of players (and I've been playing a long time) who dumped a gajillion bucks into it all of a sudden. Most people I know buy enough to trans a skill here, an artie there, over years and years.
The gate is pretty rough, to be sure. But I think it's also worth noting that people don't go from starting Achaea to competing with top-tier fighters (which is where arties really make a huge difference) right away, either. I don't think most players'd be dissuaded about playing over not being able to toe-to-toe the top 5 dogs in Achaea. A lot of what we see as 'necessary' in Achaea is very, very tinged by our perception of it, and that's mostly a perception based on being tuned into the mechanics of a game we've known for at least a handful of years, for the most part.
For example, I was thinking about recommendations I've made in the past as I read this, and: given how small the pool of people who 1v1 is (bigger now, with serverside curing and people in general getting a little more into fighting), I can't honestly say I'd recommend trans avoidance to someone who isn't really going to play Achaea a lot, right out of the gate, as I might have in previous years, when asked about must-haves. To be sure, to an Achaean who's been playing a while, avoidance is a no-brainer thing that we'd probably hate to go without. For someone learning the game, getting into it, is it a must-have? Probably not. It's important to keep a bit of perspective when thinking about what 'minimum investment' really does entail.
Ultimately, Achaea's a game that relies on people both liking the game world and the people in it, to keep coming back. The number of people who play solely or even primarily for the pvp don't number a few dozen atm, I'd be willing to bet, and that's with two decades' worth of player acquisition. People play because they meet friends, love their orgs, find Achaea whimsical, and so on much more than because they love pvp. Pvp might be fun once in a while for most people, but having a bit of fun in pvp doesn't necessarily require a huge investment. Group combat is a lot cheaper than 1v1, and clever group composition, along with a good attitude from your teammates, goes a lot further than having a lot of arties for having casual fun in group pvp.
Agreed that Achaea's really expensive as a hobby. But I think it's also important to keep in perspective the longevity of Achaea as an investment, and how often we think of things as 'necessary' that really aren't. I think anything that convinces new players to stick around is good, though, and having access to at least your class skills out of the gate seems like a pretty logical way to ensure that- and tying that to an elite subscription seems pretty reasonable.
The difference is all these games (maybe not eq, idk) have added catchup mechanisms so someone starting in 2018 isn't hopelessly behiond. Even Eve did this, and that was a game where literally the way you advanced was by waiting RL days/weeks/whatever for your skills to move up on their own. Wow and so on obviously have just made leveling easier and obsoleted past expansion raids when a new one comes out.
Achaea's added very little in the way of catch-up mechanisms. If I start playing Achaea today, not only am I extremely behind on knowledge (from syntax to mechanics to lore), but I'm also behind thousands of credits with no easy way to come closer to older players that don't involve dropping thousands of dollars in one go.
How many people actually 1v1?
You're not wrong, necessarily. I'm saying that what Achaeans perceive as 'necessary' to compete might not be what someone new to the game sees as necessary to compete. Someone willing to sit down and walk you through serverside curing, plus a couple of offensive aliases and being pointed to helpful IC books/forums posts about classes puts you literally years ahead of where I was when I played for the first 6-7 years of Achaea and had patchwork borrowed stuff from other people and barely knew my classes well.
If tritrans were accessible via a subscription model, I'd have no problem recommending Achaea to people, with regards to investment.
Sure, you can overcome having less Arties with skill and practice, but even then you're inherently limited because person x has had years to build up Arties at a slower pace while you haven't.
Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM