Jester v.s. Shaman

Xidigo

I have been doing my research through the Wiki on classes and greatly enjoy the aspect of the Puppetry/Vodun skilltrees. Either of these sound like great fun to roleplay. I was hoping I could get some assistance on making my decision.

PKing, especially assassinations and raiding cities would be my top things to achieve but I would also like to hunt my way up to Dragon, as I believe it will aid with the former.

It seems like Shaman get more synergy with Vodun through the Spiritlore skill and more offense with Curses. Jester seems to have more tankiness/avoidance, utility, and support through Tarot and Pranks, but it sounds like they have difficulty achieving a kill which would hinder their ability to assassinate.

Does it sound like I have this correct? Can anyone please weigh in on this? Also, I am curious to hear how Spiritwalking can be beneficial as it sounds quite dangerous. Scouting perhaps?

Torinn

I believe it was determined that shaman is one of the best hunting classes at the moment.  Shaman is also great at pvp

Ryzeth

Jester does definitely not have difficulty killing people.

Probably requires one of the highest amount of effort to kill people; expect to lose quite a few as Jester before the wins start rolling in, once it does the class is amazing. Pretty invaluable to have a good one in groups, as well. Just don't expect to get many kills in groups.

Calira

Ryzeth said:

Jester does definitely not have difficulty killing people.

Probably requires one of the highest amount of effort to kill people; expect to lose quite a few as Jester before the wins start rolling in, once it does the class is amazing. Pretty invaluable to have a good one in groups, as well. Just don't expect to get many kills in groups.

Jester has a lot of difficulty. It's by far the hardest class to actually secure kills with, requiring a tremendous amount of knowledge to both survive a skilled opponent (since it's the slowest prep class around) and a good deal of manual skill or automation to pull off the lengthy puppet-based executions required to kill anyone with a shield tattoo. The class is very rewarding to play and has the tools to win almost any matchup, but it's not for beginners

Xidigo said:

Jester seems to have more tankiness/avoidance, utility, and support through Tarot and Pranks, but it sounds like they have difficulty achieving a kill which would hinder their ability to assassinate.

Jester has a lot of proactive survival tools at its disposal, but that's because it's actually very fragile. The class is one of the very few 5-aff lock classes compared to most that need 6, it doesn't have a single damage-mitigation class defence, and unlike most other classes, its health/affliction curing tools don't work while proned. Shaman definitely has the potential to be tankier depending on spirit choices, at least in PvP

It's not all bad news for Jester, though. While they take more time to get it, a Jester with a full puppet is a -lot- more dangerous than a Shaman is. Very few classes are as hard to survive, in fact

Ryzeth

Calira said:

When I say "has no difficulty killing people" I mean once you learn how the class works, you won't have too much trouble killing people. I don't mean it's an easy class, or for beginners.

Solnir

As a shaman, I argue that vodun does not have good synergy with the rest of the class abilities. I know I'm going to get shamed for that, so gunna go ahead and pull a Targossian and call in @Micaelis for backup here.
Otherwise, you're looking at two classes that are very, very hard to master. You can be decent with a little work and some coding knowledge, but I've been playing exclusively shaman for several months now and I'm still a mid-tier combatant, at best. Once you've gained a really good grasp on the class, you can roll through people fairly easily, but utilising all of the skills available within the class is a lot harder than it sounds.

As for hunting, shaman is pretty fantastic once you have jinx and all the resistances from spiritlore, but I can't compare it to jester as I just haven't seen enough jesters around.

Sayenna

Solnir said:

As a shaman, I argue that vodun does not have good synergy with the rest of the class abilities. I know I'm going to get shamed for that, so gunna go ahead and pull a Targossian and call in @Micaelis for backup here.

Agree with this. It "works" but that doesn't mean synergises very well with the rest of their stuff... It's mostly gimmicky stuff, quite honestly. I can understand not wanting to redo two whole skillsets, but honestly I'd have preferred changing Vodun into something else rather than changing Runelore. Vodun isn't really fun for either side.

Otherwise, you're looking at two classes that are very, very hard to master. You can be decent with a little work and some coding knowledge, but I've been playing exclusively shaman for several months now and I'm still a mid-tier combatant, at best.

I wouldn't say Shaman is even close to as hard as Jester; Jester actually synergises very, very well with puppetry compared to Shamans and Vodun. The amount of tactics a Jester has (particularly combined with tarot) is kinda huge.

Once you've gained a really good grasp on the class, you can roll through people fairly easily, but utilising all of the skills available within the class is a lot harder than it sounds.

You're not really using... Most of Spiritlore, honestly. It has so many things that were added "just because" - a few of the spirits are only ever attuned just because they give good attune effects; the skills they give are 'okay' at best. You're also not using quite a fair amount of the Curses, either. Pretty much the entirety of a Jester's repertoire has their uses, barring a handful of skills.

As for hunting, shaman is pretty fantastic once you have jinx and all the resistances from spiritlore, but I can't compare it to jester as I just haven't seen enough jesters around.

Jester not bad if you have an arti blackjack + SoA.

Calira

I wouldn't agree that Vodun is gimmicky or that it doesn't synergize well with Curses and Spiritlore. There are plenty of Vodun abilities that synergise really well even with a basic momentum offence, like Vodun Paralyse effectively allowing you to Swiftcurse while clumsy and Imbibe working with Soulscourge to let you seal locks, and the powerful active hinder of Bind and Mangle/Cripple to bail you out of tough situations if you find yourself losing. Vodun also gives you raw prep options that resemble Jester setups but end in salvelocks, riftlocks or slowlocks, and while they're not as tight as what a Jester can do, they're still threatening and can work on any opponent.

Sayenna

Calira said:

I don't much disagree with anything really that's said here. Vodun paralyse (if you have the fashions to spare) is great for saving swiftcurse charges. Not a fan of soulscourge destroying the doll either, I'd rather it just have a cooldown (longer than the others, for good reason) and ate the double fashions that the ability uses. With that said, I like it for what it does, just not the outcome of using it

Salvelocks / Riftlocks / Slowlocks (at least in the sense of a Shaman using them) are the very definition of 'gimmick' at least in the sense of a Shaman doing them. I wouldn't say they "work on any opponent" with just how foreseeable they all are. Good? Sure. Powerful? Debatable.

II still think Shaman is an extremely good class... I just don't really agree that Vodun plays a big part in them being strong, moreso just helps them out occasionally. I wouldn't mind if it played a bigger role in their combat style, given that it's their schtick and all.

Amranu

Salvelocks / Riftlocks / Slowlocks (at least in the sense of a Shaman using them) are the very definition of 'gimmick' at least in the sense of a Shaman doing them. I wouldn't say they "work on any opponent" with just how foreseeable they all are. Good? Sure. Powerful? Debatable.

Salvelocks are Shaman's most secure and powerful kill method. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Kiet

I'm continually amazed that there's this big shaman community over in targ  and yet people keep claiming some very weird things from over there as if they had no one to practice with.

If Vodun seems less integral to shaman, it's simply because curses and spiritlore are so strong that people become spoiled.

Vodun is also extremely fun, imo, and is a very big part of shaman lore/history, so saying it should've gone is weird af.

Xidigo

What sort of locks do Jesters try for, or is their method of combat different entirely? It sounds like they are quite a bit more difficult to figure out but somehow more rewarding?

Sayenna

Kiet said:

Vodun is also extremely fun, imo, and is a very big part of shaman lore/history, so saying it should've gone is weird af.

No one's saying it should have gone. I'm saying given that it's their thing and all, it's weird it doesn't play a more integral role in its combat. It can definitely help, but you can kill people just fine without it.

I said I would have preferred it got reworked/looked at when Shaman got their new things, rather than replacing Runelore, so that it could play a bigger part in a Shaman's offence than it currently does.

And yes, I agree completely with that second sentence. Curses/Spiritlore combos are strong enough that you don't really need to use Vodun, unless you really want to. It does open up some more advanced routes.

Kiet

Runelore sucked, though. I'm not sure who'd ever pick Runelore over Vodun.

Armali

You absolutely cannot kill someone saavy without Vodun, if only by virtue of the fact that you have absolutely no way of keeping someone really still when you want them to be with just curse. If someone one hit slow preps you and you're just relying on spiritlore and curses, you have no recourse. Vodun is what sets it apart from every other aff momentum class.

Calira

Xidigo said:

What sort of locks do Jesters try for, or is their method of combat different entirely? It sounds like they are quite a bit more difficult to figure out but somehow more rewarding?

Jesters can do some pretty gimmicky momentum locks with Itchpowder and juggling, and they can do some neat salvelocks with Hierophant, but the most reliable and potent lock that Jesters can do is using the Aeon tarot and concussion bombs to throttle someone's curing, backed up with puppetry mangles to remove their defensive counterplay options.

Farrah

Kiet said:

I'm continually amazed that there's this big shaman community over in targ  and yet people keep claiming some very weird things from over there as if they had no one to practice with.

If Vodun seems less integral to shaman, it's simply because curses and spiritlore are so strong that people become spoiled.

Vodun is also extremely fun, imo, and is a very big part of shaman lore/history, so saying it should've gone is weird af.

I'm continually amazed that every post of yours has to somehow be negative about Targ.

There is no combat hive mind in any city. Just respond to the posts rather than commenting on what city the poster happens to play a character in for once. Seriously.

Sayenna

Armali said:

You absolutely cannot kill someone saavy without Vodun, if only by virtue of the fact that you have absolutely no way of keeping someone really still when you want them to be with just curse. If someone one hit slow preps you and you're just relying on spiritlore and curses, you have no recourse. Vodun is what sets it apart from every other aff momentum class.

This is making the assumption that the Shaman doesn't know how to chase; unless they're combining running with spamming fly then yeah, I'll concede that it's difficult and you prob need Vodun. Without looping fly, it's not really any different to fighting as any other class that relies on room-set hinder (piety/gravehands/whatever) to keep someone with you. Barring the initial getaway, chasing someone is exactly the same provided you're not Halos and piety'ing/runing up an entire area.

I remember ~2 weeks ago when Me, Xaden, Mathilda and Fred went to go kill Proficy/Llesvelt when they were defiling... I chased Proficy when he got away, and they stayed to kill Llesvelt... Fought him for a good ~minute before Mathilda caught back up to me, and Prof was already locked, without Vodun; I killed him right after she entered the room and breathgusted him. He even said, "Wow nice." when I did

All these theoretical counters get really tiring to discuss. What works on paper to survive, does not always pan out the same way in a normal fight. Humans are prone to making errors and mistakes, especially when under pressure. By your logic, nobody should ever die to anything. Ever.

@Kiet again, I never said getting rid of Vodun in favour of keeping Runelore. I said redoing/looking into it, to tie into their combat better. I'm in agreement with Farrah, really.

Calira

Sayenna said:

This is making the assumption that the Shaman doesn't know how to chase; unless they're combining running with spamming fly then yeah, I'll concede that it's difficult and you prob need Vodun. Without looping fly, it's not really any different to fighting as any other class that relies on room-set hinder (piety/gravehands/whatever) to keep someone with you.

You can't just discount fly, since piety/ghands/distortion and even peels all counter it, while frozen ground cannot. Frozen ground is worse in other regards, too; it doesn't take any extra balance when it counters movement, so you have to combine it with icewalls for it to be worth anything, increasing your setup time immensely, introducing counterplay in the form of firewalls, and reducing your ability to blanket many rooms in hinder. Your own room hinder applies just as equally to you as it does to your opponent, which means that chasing is rather more difficult for a Shaman

Kiet

Farrah said:

Kiet said:

I'm continually amazed that there's this big shaman community over in targ  and yet people keep claiming some very weird things from over there as if they had no one to practice with.

If Vodun seems less integral to shaman, it's simply because curses and spiritlore are so strong that people become spoiled.

Vodun is also extremely fun, imo, and is a very big part of shaman lore/history, so saying it should've gone is weird af.

I'm continually amazed that every post of yours has to somehow be negative about Targ.

There is no combat hive mind in any city. Just respond to the posts rather than commenting on what city the poster happens to play a character in for once. Seriously.

You're taking a comment about a group of shamans as being about the honor of your text city. The point is not that they're targ, it's that there's a group of 4+ shamans (the only such group in the game!) that keep spouting bizarre comments about shaman here + in discord (such as swiftcurse being bad, last time).

I really don't care about Targ as much as you think I do, and I don't even post about it very often. I generally rank it as one of the better cities, even, and I openly state so!

Sayenna

Calira said:

Sayenna said:

This is making the assumption that the Shaman doesn't know how to chase; unless they're combining running with spamming fly then yeah, I'll concede that it's difficult and you prob need Vodun. Without looping fly, it's not really any different to fighting as any other class that relies on room-set hinder (piety/gravehands/whatever) to keep someone with you.

You can't just discount fly, since piety/ghands/distortion and even peels all counter it, while frozen ground cannot. Frozen ground is worse in other regards, too; it doesn't take any extra balance when it counters movement, so you have to combine it with icewalls for it to be worth anything, increasing your setup time immensely, introducing counterplay in the form of firewalls, and reducing your ability to blanket many rooms in hinder. Your own room hinder applies just as equally to you as it does to your opponent, which means that chasing is rather more difficult for a Shaman

Not discounting it; just saying not everyone has access to fly, or not everyone spams it while running! I even stated if they are, then yeah you will probably need Vodun!

And yeah, I really don't like frozen ground/icefort as our 'room hinder' - Personally I rely on my ability to chase (which has worked so far, even vs Exelethril and co), if necessary. But at the same time, Shaman would probably be broken if they had something equivalent to piety. Alas.

Armali

I mean, you're welcome to fight me if you'd like, and I can demonstrate for you. Flying is an important part of the defensive kit and you can't just discount it.

Farrah

I mean, Armali's statement of "you absolutely cannot kill someone saavy" was somewhat of an exaggeration. You can kill momentum classes. They have to play chicken by design.

But yeah, vodun is definitely important if you want to be able to kill everyone. Sooner or later, you'll run into someone who hit and run (or hit and fly) slow preps to a point where you can't accomplish anything.

I think part of @Sayenna's gripe might just stem from my own problem with Vodun though: it's boring. If shaman had something more interesting than Vodun (mechanic-wise), I'd probably play the class myself. But I tend to favor the prep classes that push offense while prepping (snb, bard, shikudo) or prep very quickly (tekura, magi) when I'm playing a prep class. To me, fashioning always seemed both slow and isolated from the momentum aspect of the class. Maligus brings them together a little, but you're still not really pushing offense when you make the decision to start doing curse/maligus instead of more affs.

It's fine as is in terms of viability, but not a favorite of mine.

Calira

Farrah said:

I think part of @Sayenna's gripe might just stem from my own problem with Vodun though: it's boring. If shaman had something more interesting than Vodun (mechanic-wise), I'd probably play the class myself. But I tend to favor the prep classes that push offense while prepping (snb, bard, shikudo) or prep very quickly (tekura, magi) when I'm playing a prep class. To me, fashioning always seemed both slow and isolated from the momentum aspect of the class. Maligus brings them together a little, but you're still not really pushing offense when you make the decision to start doing curse/maligus instead of more affs.

This complaint makes some sense when talking about Puppetry, but not really when talking about Vodun. Soulrend lets you get maginicent dolls with ease while cursing, and I've had at least 3 Shamans complain to me that they often end up with maxed out dolls through curse-based offences, but they have no idea what to do with them.

Farrah

Kiet said:

Farrah said:

Kiet said:

I'm continually amazed that there's this big shaman community over in targ  and yet people keep claiming some very weird things from over there as if they had no one to practice with.

If Vodun seems less integral to shaman, it's simply because curses and spiritlore are so strong that people become spoiled.

Vodun is also extremely fun, imo, and is a very big part of shaman lore/history, so saying it should've gone is weird af.

I'm continually amazed that every post of yours has to somehow be negative about Targ.

There is no combat hive mind in any city. Just respond to the posts rather than commenting on what city the poster happens to play a character in for once. Seriously.

You're taking a comment about a group of shamans as being about the honor of your text city. The point is not that they're targ, it's that there's a group of 4+ shamans (the only such group in the game!) that keep spouting bizarre comments about shaman here + in discord (such as swiftcurse being bad, last time).

I really don't care about Targ as much as you think I do, and I don't even post about it very often. I generally rank it as one of the better cities, even, and I openly state so!

There aren't four shamans posting in this thread, so I don't know what four shamans you're talking about as a "group" if not by just lumping all of Targ's shamans together as one hive mind. I'd also be surprised if there's no other city in the game with four shamans in it.

Xidigo

So far from this thread I've learned that Shaman is considerably easier and more powerful than Jester and that Targ has too many of them...?

Farrah

You can never have too many shamans.

Sayenna

I dunno that I'd say Shaman is more powerful than Jester.

Easier, sure. More Shamans always good tho.

Mathilda

I think pure swiftcurse has a slightly lower APS than slowcurse+invoke+jinx re: "swiftcurse is terrible".

Sayenna

Mathilda said:

I think pure swiftcurse has a slightly lower APS than slowcurse+invoke+jinx re: "swiftcurse is terrible".

It's not slower by much, and swiftcurse is (I think) a little faster when you run out of invokes to combo with. Slowcurse/soulrend + jinx is lower than pure swiftcurse. Swift limited by charges though, but not a huge factor if you're afflicting smartly since you can swiftcurse while it's still up, to make it drastically faster balance recovery than if you were putting swiftcurse up when out of charges.

Calira

Swiftcurse offers a much higher paralysis uptime than Jinx. This results in better hinder and it results in nearly 100% of the herbs eaten being bloodroot, which removes the ambiguity from other herbs that can cure multiple things. The biggest weakness of Swiftcurse is that it's affected by clumsiness where Jinx is not, but Vodun Paralyse can solve that problem neatly, as Vodun cannot miss and Swiftcurse cannot miss vs. a paralysed target.