PvE Analysis

Krizal

In case anyone's interested in less artied stats:

DEPTHSWALKER, 16 str, lvl 2 scythe:

Reap

595 dmg, 2.2b, 270 dps

DRAGON, 19 str:

Gut

834 dmg, 3b, 278 dps

AIRLORD, 16 int:

Buffet

543+111 dmg, 2.15b, 304 dps

Minifie

Krizal said:

In case anyone's interested in less artied stats:

DEPTHSWALKER, 16 str, lvl 2 scythe:

Reap

595 dmg, 2.2b, 270 dps

DRAGON, 19 str:

Gut

834 dmg, 3b, 278 dps

AIRLORD, 16 int:

Buffet

543+111 dmg, 2.15b, 304 dps

Is depthswalker with hunting or without hunting terminus? I don’t know what’s in the tree, is it only defense and crit? No bonus to raw reap damage?

[Deleted User]

Just throwing my numbers into the ring now that the little girl makes it easier!

(I know weapon classes weren't changed. Just providing a reference point, and also showing how bad priest is even with nearly every buff it can get)

My balance numbers may be a little off, but it shouldn't dramatically affect any of the numbers.

PRIEST - 20 str, lvl 3 mace, nimble:

Smite
525 dmg, 2.0b, 263 dps

BLADEMASTER - 19 str, lvl 3 band, nimble:

Drawslash (Arash)
842 dmg, 1.9b, 443 dps

Drawslash (Thyr)
636 dmg, 1.7b, 374 dps

BARD - 18 str, lvl 3 rapier, nimble:

Jab + Accentato
648 dmg, 1.75b, 370 dps

SERPENT - 19 dex, lvl3 lash, nimble:

Garrote
638 dmg, 1.35b, 473 dps

DRAGON - 23 str, 21 int, lvl 3 dirk:

Jab
662 dmg, 1.9b, 348 dps

Gut
979 dmg, 3.0b, 326 dps

Incantation
1062 dmg, 3.3e, 322 dps

Atalkez

@Krizal do you have Augmentation? I thought reap was 2s after everything applied?

Jovolo

Buff smite that's ridiculous

Krizal

@Atalkez that's with augmentation, yeah. No hunting terminus though, @Minifie.

Atalkez

Krizal said:

@Atalkez that's with augmentation, yeah. No hunting terminus though, @Minifie.

So either you didn't have it, or you need to re-activate the Terminus. I'm getting 2.0 pretty consistently, as did @Penwize when I asked him to double check for me.

My bashing info:

Depthswalker with l2 Scythe, 17 str, augmentation and hunting terminus trees capped

Reap - 622 damage, 2.0s balance without Laiad usage, 311 DPS
Reap - 648 damage, 2.0s balance with Laiad usage, 324 DPS
Cull - 868 damage, 2.8s balance without Laiad usage, 310 DPS
Cull - 904 damage, 2.8s balance with Laiad usage, 322 DPS

Dragon with 21 str

Gut - 935 damage, 3.0s balance, 311 DPS (Gut is still being modified by STR, not sure if that will stick)
Whip of Taming - 725 damage, 2.2s balance, 329 DPS

Earthlord with 19 str

Pulverise - 808 damage, 3.0s balance, 269 DPS



My take aways from the above:

Laiad with the current setup is nearly useless. Between using/critting a thing to death and using/unable to use on the next mob, it really doesn't offer very much benefit. Given that you have to gimp yourself on Terminus offense to even use this ability - it needs to do more, or be much less unwieldy. No reason for it to have a per-mob CD, a hard CD AND use 15 seconds of word balance. I think it should be able to be used on every single mob, and also offer much more benefit than it does.

Earthlord is terrible and needs a solid 13-15% flat increase in DPS to bring it in line with most other classes around 310.

It seems that most of the classes are balanced around 350 within a variance. Outliers should be brought back to this center within a fair variance. Earthlord should be slightly under center, with Serpent/Arash BM being slightly above - but the disparity should never be more than 30-40 DPS imo.

Krizal

Hrm, it's probably my internet then, I get very variable timestamps from 2s to 2.4s or so and just went with the average. Anyone have a proper balance time for airlord?  

Ogoun

A possible solution for Priest PVE is to give fragility a PVE component where it boosts smite damage by 30% against mobs. The smite damage would be boosted to 682, giving priests a modest, but respectable, 341 dps (ceteris parabus).

Paux

Why does Serpent get to be the best at everything? 

Isn't there supposed to be tradeoffs for having the most utility built into a class?

[Deleted User]

Not arguing that serpent isn't too good comparatively, but it's worth noting that serpent bashing has a pretty big buy-in and tradeoffs. Having to spec into dex naturally pits you against con, so you need a fair baseline of defensive artefacts to hunt safely. Also, the lash has very limited PvP value, so you're paying quite a bit almost solely for the PvE damage boost.

Aegoth

i'd throw down for a bashing-only artie if it meant bashing at serpent level. There really is no comparison.. and no way to truly defend how absurd serpent bashing is. Other classes need to be at its level, or serpent dps brought way, way down

Khel

@Atalkez Earth uses int to hunt not str

Atalkez

Okay I have l2 Int, can’t edit the post. So base+2 for Elord on that test.

Minifie

Issam said:

Not arguing that serpent isn't too good comparatively, but it's worth noting that serpent bashing has a pretty big buy-in and tradeoffs. Having to spec into dex naturally pits you against con, so you need a fair baseline of defensive artefacts to hunt safely. Also, the lash has very limited PvP value, so you're paying quite a bit almost solely for the PvE damage boost.

This is both true and untrue at this point in the game: Yes you lose a con point to spec dex, but you can safely bash faster than near any other class with the same investment. Lash and dex are limited in usage, sure, but dex still benefits serpent utility speed and dodge, so you are not paying for just bashing speed on dex. Lash is true, but it's irrelevant because you still have to pay that much out for, say, dual cutting or dual blunt for thoth+lash or dual 1h. 

Deathcape almost entirely neuters the "spec dex and lose con" anyway simple because if you want throughput, every class as a preferential stat, you are paying 1 con for unparalleled bashing speed, and one that keeps getting better even past the financial caps of dex/spec/lash. Serpent sacrifices at the lower end, but so does: Alchemist, Apostate, Blademaster, Depthswalker, Druid, Monk, Occultist, Priest, Sentinel, Sylvan. Just capping dex at 16 for garrote speed/damage and setting it to current 17 dex would probably bring it down into line without needing to beef others up to it.    

   

Atalkez

I’m fine with Serpent being “the best” by DPS, but the disparity should not be that great.

Arash BM is far less tanky than serpent, and still does less dps. I agree with Mini, passed a certain point the downsides of the dex spec mean nearly nothing.

Also it is worth noting that serpent benefits from the dex in pvp, and doesn’t have to swap between that and something else to be useful in combat. Compare that to DW requiring hunting or BM Arash being a death sentence in most cases for pvp, serpent isn’t losing near as much as people try to portray it does. You’re directly boosting your PVP and PVE ability, the only argument I’ll agree with is the lash - but that still doesn’t make it an outlier on the investment side imo.

[Deleted User]

I don't disagree; I think that would be a fine solution for changing serpent. My point was basically that these investments are made with serpent bashing in mind - dexterity has only really gotten less valuable over time, since most modern classes can't be naturally dodged. The lash investment isn't entirely comparable to the other weapon costs because those have PvP applications as well. If we're going to neuter serpent bashing (good in the long term for sure), I'd like to see dexterity become more valuable somehow.

Minifie

yeah, I think my post was a bit too combative, sorry about that. Honestly I just think bringing back serpent a little bit, and then spending time to bring the lowest up, and then re-calibrating again from there is the best path forward. At this point, nerfing any other class is a definitely no-no, and slowing down bashing again is definitely a bad idea. I just want to not feel like I'm going ~20% slower or worse just because I don't want to serpent bash, if nerfing serpent though has any repercussions to lowbie/unartied serpents then definitely don't nerf, any changes should avoid making newer players/f2p players feel worse.

Atalkez

Blademaster with l2 band, 17 str

Unstanced - 656 damage, 1.9s balance, 345 DPS

Thyr - 561 damage, 1.8s balance, 311 DPS

Sanya - 686 damage, 2s balance, 343 DPS

Doya - 719 damage, 2.5s balance, 287 DPS

Mir - 624 damage, 2.5s balance, 249 DPS

Arash - 751 damage, 1.9s balance, 395 DPS

Dominius

Here's my 2 cents.

I sort of understand all sides of people when it comes to bashing. Those who want one class but it just doesn't get them dragon or more fast enough and the other faction who pick a class and it happens to be real good or relative to get you there. The third party can afford to may out and get bebefits of multiclassing to be best of the best. Achaea has always been this, either you put lots of time in to make things work or a lot of money. Credits don't buy you skill in fighting but they buy you stuff to hunt. Multiclass came around when people got super bored of being limited. It keeps Achaea interesting for a lot of people. Now to start nerfing certain classes that are just really good at bashing because others aren't would also mean taking away chances of reaching character goals. How is someone going to catch up to level 157 Penwize who has been able to use Serpent bashing for years if that gets nerfed? I really don't see that being fair as opposed to bumping up sucky bashing classes. I have been about half of the classes in Achaea myself and they all work to bash and were interesting to learn. Let's keep the super duper extra extra great classes for bashing to ensure we all get equal chances and lets throw the other classes a treat!

Atalkez

You’re never catching Penwize unless he goes dormant. The argument you’re making is extremely flawed considering all of the non-artie bashing related items that are hard gated by availability and money. 

That said I don’t disagree, boost the other classes up - or bring the outliers closer to the middle. There is zero logical reason a class can bash at a 60% higher rate than another. Everything should be within a window of acceptable variety, 80-100 more dps doesn’t fit that.

Cooper

The funny thing about buying a ton of artefacts for bashing is that it is pretty much not worth it for 99% of people.

Here is what I have that ONLY helps with bashing:

1600cr Lash
850cr Rondel
1000cr icosagon paragon
1000cr Crucious paragon
2500cr Maya Figurine
1500cr Blood Maiden cloak (technically can be used in PVP, but pretty niche)
1000cr Death Cape

9450 for everything, and without all of that I couldn't bash as quickly/efficiently as I do. The blood cloak is required only for very specific areas, and wouldn't be required for most people.

I 100% guarantee you that I have not earned 9450 MORE credits than I would have without the artefacts. I might have 300-400 more health because of the faster bashing (because of being a bit of a higher level). So since all of that is only good for bashing, I would have been much better off selling the credits for gold and just bashing without artefacts at a slower pace. Net positive gold. Make sense?

The part that needs adjusted most is unartefacted bashing, and the outliers on either side. Competitions should not be won or lost just because you aren't in a good bashing class.

Nylian

Cooper said:

[...]
Competitions should not be won or lost just because you aren't in a good bashing class.

Very much this. If I buy all the arties to stay competitive with bashing speed, fine, but let me get top basher with SnB Infernal if it's what I want to do.  Before I was tanky I used to run around with dual tower shields decaying everything, and it was fun, dammit.

Morthif

Cooper said:

The funny thing about buying a ton of artefacts for bashing is that it is pretty much not worth it for 99% of people.

Here is what I have that ONLY helps with bashing:

1600cr Lash
850cr Rondel
1000cr icosagon paragon
1000cr Crucious paragon
2500cr Maya Figurine
1500cr Blood Maiden cloak (technically can be used in PVP, but pretty niche)
1000cr Death Cape

9450 for everything, and without all of that I couldn't bash as quickly/efficiently as I do. The blood cloak is required only for very specific areas, and wouldn't be required for most people.

I 100% guarantee you that I have not earned 9450 MORE credits than I would have without the artefacts. I might have 300-400 more health because of the faster bashing (because of being a bit of a higher level). So since all of that is only good for bashing, I would have been much better off selling the credits for gold and just bashing without artefacts at a slower pace. Net positive gold. Make sense?

The part that needs adjusted most is unartefacted bashing, and the outliers on either side. Competitions should not be won or lost just because you aren't in a good bashing class.

where's your culling blade you unartied scrub

Sobriquet

No Crit pendant?

Penwize

Cooper said:

Competitions should not be won or lost just because you aren't in a good bashing class.

I struggle with this sentence because it's deceptively complex.

On the surface, you're right: ideally all classes should wind up having the ability to achieve roughly the same net xp/hour and gold/hour via hunting.

However, if they all did it in the same way, with no diversity whatsoever, that really eliminates a lot of the draw on individual classes.  Similarly, it ignores certain classes' innate advantages over others.  Things like how tanky some classes are, extra mobility and travel options, extra healing options, or special affliction cures (dwinnu, for example) all can affect how a class will perform even if they all have the same raw damage output.  Even with similar raw damage output, balance times or hit count have an affect on average kill time due to the chance to shortcut a kill.

Ideally, all of those advantages would be taken into account so that the net result is the same, but getting to that point is tricky, especially with artefacts added into the mix.  And honestly, even if they all were, as long as there is even a tiny disparity there will be one class that is mathematically better by some degree.  The only way around that is complete homogeneity, which is probably not a good state to be in.

So while I agree with the statement at face value, I think some care should be taken in the deeper meaning behind it.  I'd vastly prefer all classes wind up getting what they need to be brought up to the potential to reach high tiers' hunting output, than simply taking away all the high tier classes.

Morthif

Has anyone really got the dps averages for unartied for every class? This thread really focused on max arties possible for bashing which really negates out the more/faster damage vs tankability dynamic that makes classes different.

Kaedan

Morthif said:

Has anyone really got the dps averages for unartied for every class? This thread really focused on max arties possible for bashing which really negates out the more/faster damage vs tankability dynamic that makes classes different.

I did some base testing with a couple alts that had the lessons for the required switches. 12 on the damage stat, trans skill, no arties, standard weapon. But, this was before the most recent changes, and I didn't do a lot of classes (actually, over half were those that were probably changed, occie, alchemist, psion, etc.). It -mostly- followed full arties proportionally, though Tekura monk was actually a lot higher (subjective to the other class DPS), which I found interesting. A smidge higher than jester, decent bit better than Shaman using Jinx, lagged behind 2-hand RW. Interesting note, Psion deathblow unartied is basically the same damage as Shaman Jinx unartied now, with 12 for the damage stats, and I know it used to be complete shit, so Psion at least got a really nice boost. Note these are very rough numbers and a better job could probably be done, but this is what I have post recent changes:

CLASS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DAMAGE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BALANCE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DPS<br>-----------------------------------------------<br>Shaman<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jinx&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 47%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11.75%/s<br>DWalker<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cull&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 28%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9.3%/s<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reap&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.3s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8.7%/s<br>Jester&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 35%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.7s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13%/s<br>RW 2hand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 43%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14.3%/s<br>Tekura&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 28%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.1s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13.3%/s<br>Occie&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 37%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.6s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10%/s<br><br>Psion&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 21%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.0s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11.5%/s

Mindshell said he might go through doing 12-damage-stat-no-arties bashing numbers, but it's a lot of effort for one person to go through so I can't blame him if he puts it off/changes his mind.

Telinus

@makarios @nicola can you just release base hunting DPS for each class?

I don't understand why this is gated away behind certain people having to research it.

Veldrin

Telinus said:

@makarios @nicola can you just release base hunting DPS for each class?

I don't understand why this is gated away behind certain people having to research it.

Really would like it if it was just shown in the AB for each ability. 

Like

Incantation (Dragoncraft)                     Known: Yes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Syntax:            INCANTATION <target>

Works on/against:  Adventurers and denizens

Denizen damage: 1234

Cooldown:          3.90 seconds of equilibrium

Resource:          250 mana

Details:

Unleash a powerful wave of energy to destroy your foes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never understood why the PvE details aren't just readily available